T
theropod
Guest
You may not like the choice of words, but his post is accurate.
- Status
T
theropod
Guest
There is a massive difference, and I think you know it. Christians are not burdened by all the old laws that even the Jews were unable to keep Acts 15. Islam takes that old Jewish law concept and turns it up to 11.
S
Servant19
Guest
T
theropod
Guest
I give you, “Islamic Toilet Etiquette” from Wikipedia:Can you please give examples of what you mean?
Thankyou
.
When your entire life is dictated like this, there is no comparison to “'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” and “Love your neighbor as yourself.”
D
drac16
Guest
Theropod:
Yeah, the bathroom laws do seem excessive at first, but in regard to fiqh, there are different ways to understand it (Fiqh is a branch of Shariah).
There isn’t just one interpretation of Shariah-- there are several (Hanafi, Shafi’i, Maliki and Hanbali). Therefore, there are some minor disagreements and differences of opinion in regards to fiqh, so for this reason, it’s not fair to say that there is just one understanding of bathroom purity.
It’s not as simple as saying that “Islam teaches this in regards to bathroom purity”. Rather, there are many oral traditions [or ‘hadiths’] that talk about it, some of which are contradictory. Hadiths are not scripture, though, so it’s not like I’m committing a grave sin if I wash my hands twice, as opposed to once, after using the restroom.
But yeah, cleanliness is important to the Islamic faith. No doubt about that. We seek to emulate Muhammad’s life and habits, even down to how he relieved himself.
Yeah, the bathroom laws do seem excessive at first, but in regard to fiqh, there are different ways to understand it (Fiqh is a branch of Shariah).
There isn’t just one interpretation of Shariah-- there are several (Hanafi, Shafi’i, Maliki and Hanbali). Therefore, there are some minor disagreements and differences of opinion in regards to fiqh, so for this reason, it’s not fair to say that there is just one understanding of bathroom purity.
It’s not as simple as saying that “Islam teaches this in regards to bathroom purity”. Rather, there are many oral traditions [or ‘hadiths’] that talk about it, some of which are contradictory. Hadiths are not scripture, though, so it’s not like I’m committing a grave sin if I wash my hands twice, as opposed to once, after using the restroom.
But yeah, cleanliness is important to the Islamic faith. No doubt about that. We seek to emulate Muhammad’s life and habits, even down to how he relieved himself.
C
ComplineSanFran
Guest
Thank you for this. It is always good to learn.
E
Elizium23
Guest
Obedience of the law is TRUE FREEDOM. Making a total, sacrificial gift of self makes us more free than we could possibly be in any other context. Therefore, the Commandments and the Divine Law grant absolute, unmitigated freedom to Christians brave enough to follow them.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
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TonyBS
Guest
We would agree with this, the following quote from Baha’u’llah talks about this also; (Bold and Italic added by poster)
"Consider the pettiness of men’s minds. They ask for that which injureth them, and cast away the thing that profiteth them. They are, indeed, of those that are far astray. We find some men desiring liberty, and priding themselves therein. Such men are in the depths of ignorance.
Liberty must, in the end, lead to sedition, whose flames none can quench. Thus warneth you He Who is the Reckoner, the All-Knowing. Know ye that the embodiment of liberty and its symbol is the animal. That which beseemeth man is submission unto such restraints as will protect him from his own ignorance, and guard him against the harm of the mischief-maker. Liberty causeth man to overstep the bounds of propriety, and to infringe on the dignity of his station. It debaseth him to the level of extreme depravity and wickedness.
Regard men as a flock of sheep that need a shepherd for their protection. This, verily, is the truth, the certain truth. We approve of liberty in certain circumstances, and refuse to sanction it in others. We, verily, are the All-Knowing.
Say: True liberty consisteth in man’s submission unto My commandments, little as ye know it. Were men to observe that which We have sent down unto them from the Heaven of Revelation, they would, of a certainty, attain unto perfect liberty. Happy is the man that hath apprehended the Purpose of God in whatever He hath revealed from the Heaven of His Will, that pervadeth all created things. Say: The liberty that profiteth you is to be found nowhere except in complete servitude unto God, the Eternal Truth. Whoso hath tasted of its sweetness will refuse to barter it for all the dominion of earth and heaven.
Regards Tony
A
arthra
Guest
I was thinking of a fairly well known Catholic author that seemed tuned in to Muslim spirituality. He was a scholar and wrote a book on Mansur al-Hallaj. I believe his name was Louis Massignon…
A summary of his view of Islam can be found in wikipedia…beginning with
"In Massignon’s view, Islam is a religion based on Muhammad’s genuine inspiration, which made him see the oneness (tawhid) of God. This inspiration was completed by research in which Muhammad found the origins of the Arab people in the Biblical person of Ismael. (Borrmans, 119f) He thus sees the revelation in Islam as a “mysterious answer of (divine) grace to Abraham’s prayer for Ismael and the Arab race”. (Borrmans, 122)
read more at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Massignon#View_of_Islam
and this
“…he paved the way for a greater openness inside the Catholic Church towards Islam as it was documented in the pastoral Vatican II declaration Nostra Aetate.”
goodreads.com/author/show/95982.Louis_Massignon
A summary of his view of Islam can be found in wikipedia…beginning with
"In Massignon’s view, Islam is a religion based on Muhammad’s genuine inspiration, which made him see the oneness (tawhid) of God. This inspiration was completed by research in which Muhammad found the origins of the Arab people in the Biblical person of Ismael. (Borrmans, 119f) He thus sees the revelation in Islam as a “mysterious answer of (divine) grace to Abraham’s prayer for Ismael and the Arab race”. (Borrmans, 122)
read more at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Massignon#View_of_Islam
and this
“…he paved the way for a greater openness inside the Catholic Church towards Islam as it was documented in the pastoral Vatican II declaration Nostra Aetate.”
goodreads.com/author/show/95982.Louis_Massignon
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Servant19
Guest
Thankyou for this theropod.
I understand now your position
May I humbly offer two perspectives for you to consider:
- The Hadiths (as outlined by drac above) are not laws. They are effectively a form of guidance. There is no sin from not conducting oneself in the manner outlined. They assist to elevate the soul towards more selflessness and less selfishness, thereby creating a soul who is in right relations with God.
- When a commandment says “Love thy neighbour as yourself” there are a million “applications” to this commandment. At one time, it literally meant love those in your community, however today, a Christian would apply it to mean loving everyone in the whole world. Correct?
But the world is so intricately complex and so organically linked and interdependent today. How do you know what you do is loving or not? There are many who commit incredibly loving acts for their communities, yet the side effects of these loving acts are, unbeknownst to them, severely harmful to a neighbouring city, or a neighbouring country. It is only through Divine guidance that we are about to discern what “Love thy neighbour” means today.
The commandments of Christianity are simply expounded further and applied to todays world in Islam and the Baha’i Faith. You can call them commandments, or laws or whatever you like, but the bottom line is that they are all guidelines for humans to do good, as Elizium23 kindly outlined, is the basis behind what the Catholic Church also believes in too.
Freedom comes from doing good.
.
.
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Servant19
Guest
Thankyou Elizium,
Please may I refer you to my post above in response to theropod?
God bless you
.
C
ComplineSanFran
Guest
You know that the 50th anniversary of Nostra Aetate is soon approaching and people are congregating to celebrate it. It might be a very good new thread for someone to start. I am still new here and a bit shy over starting new threads.
S
Servant19
Guest
Nostra Aetate is an outstanding text of the Catholic Church. Please don’t be shy, start a thread, it really is a cause for the celebration of “unity in diversity”…I will post in such a thread with a tone of rejoicing
.
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
I grew up in NYC and understand unity in diversity.Nostra Aetate is an outstanding text of the Catholic Church. Please don’t be shy, start a thread, it really is a cause for the celebration of “unity in diversity”…I will post in such a thread with a tone of rejoicing
.
I would appreciate an answer from you –
“Tolerance is the virtue of a man with no convictions.”
G.K. Chesterton
Could you explain to me what your conviction is. It seems to me that your faith accepts all faiths or at least the good in each faith.
How could all faiths be correct? Is accepting just the good in each faith enough? Even atheists know “good”.
Fran
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Servant19
Guest
Wow, what a wonderful question Fran
I have many convictions in life, but in relation to unity in diversity, I suppose the most accurate analogy I have conviction in is the statement from the Revelation of Baha’u’llah:
“Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch”
(you may wish to explore the full text of this verse here, as it briefly also explores religious diversity and why all the major global religions are correct: reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-132.html )
What I am convinced of as a leaf of one branch is that we are all different, yet we are all intimately connected and have a higher purpose than what is superficially visible. It is that higher purpose that unites me with other leaves. To fulfill the true purpose of the tree, the leaf must reach out toward the Sun. When embellished with light, the leaf can fulfill its true purpose and when all leaves turn towards the Light, then the tree of humanity can reach full fruition. This is unity in diversity from my humble understanding. There is no identity save in the identity found under the Rays of the Sun.
The Sun can be found in all the major religions. Its Light shines through and pervades the fundamentals of each one of them. It is only due to the requirements of humanity at a specific point in time that the “application” of these Rays of Light can be found to show differences. We must focus on the Light and see how it can be applied to today’s world.
That is my conviction
.
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Australia. Okay. Surprised at your immediate answer. I’m in Europe.Wow, what a wonderful question Fran
I have many convictions in life, but in relation to unity in diversity, I suppose the most accurate analogy I have conviction in is the statement from the Revelation of Baha’u’llah:
“Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch”
(you may wish to explore the full text of this verse here, as it briefly also explores religious diversity and why all the major global religions are correct: reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-132.html )
What I am convinced of as a leaf of one branch is that we are all different, yet we are all intimately connected and have a higher purpose than what is superficially visible. It is that higher purpose that unites me with other leaves. To fulfill the true purpose of the tree, the leaf must reach out toward the Sun. When embellished with light, the leaf can fulfill its true purpose and when all leaves turn towards the Light, then the tree of humanity can reach full fruition. This is unity in diversity from my humble understanding. There is no identity save in the identity found under the Rays of the Sun.
The Sun can be found in all the major religions. Its Light shines through and pervades the fundamentals of each one of them. **It is only due to the requirements of humanity at a specific point in time that the “application” of these Rays of Light can be found to show differences. **We must focus on the Light and see how it can be applied to today’s world.
That is my conviction
.
All you say if very beautiful. Jesus said, I am the vine, you are the branches. Also, the sun analogy is used by christians. We teach chlldren about the sunflower. It looks like the sun. It needs the sun. It turns in the direction of the sun. And we should be like the sunflower. The sun representing God, of course. I’m assuming you mean it the same way of course.
The fruit of the tree is, as you must know, also a big concept in christianity.
I’m not sure what you mean by the highlighted: Requirements of humanity at a point in time that the application can be different.
Are you saying Jesus came along for a specific purpose at a specific point in time to achieve something? What would you say that was?
I won’t look up the link because I pretty much know what it’s going to say. Not too humble am I??! Answers to specific questions help me more - plus I don’t have a lot of time.
I’ll be checking in later on in case you’d like to answer - no more time now.
Fran
You don’t know me - let me just say that if your answer to Jesus’ purpose is going to be the christian one you could make it very short since I know it really well.
T
TriciaF
Guest
What do you mean that you like Islam teachings?
What they say it means, or what it really means.
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm
frontpagemag.com/fpm/204505/does-quran-teach-hate-robert-spencer
thereligionofpeace.com/pages/myths-of-islam.htm
We cannot agree with some of the things they said, but they do give you a better idea of Islamic spirituality. I wonder how you can like it.
Yes there are good sincere Muslims, but how can you like it their spirituality of hate, rather than the Christian spirituality of love… Do you know what is happening in so many places in the world, and the danger we all are in?
wikiislam.net/wiki/Comments_from_Former_Muslims
Antithesis to Christianity!
What they say it means, or what it really means.
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/call_to_muslims.htm
frontpagemag.com/fpm/204505/does-quran-teach-hate-robert-spencer
thereligionofpeace.com/pages/myths-of-islam.htm
We cannot agree with some of the things they said, but they do give you a better idea of Islamic spirituality. I wonder how you can like it.
Yes there are good sincere Muslims, but how can you like it their spirituality of hate, rather than the Christian spirituality of love… Do you know what is happening in so many places in the world, and the danger we all are in?
wikiislam.net/wiki/Comments_from_Former_Muslims
Antithesis to Christianity!
T
TriciaF
Guest
This is a site that tells about how Islamic teaching and intent is
bible.ca/islam/islam-encyclopedia-westerners-need-to-know-list.htm
I just don’t like to see you potentially put yourself in danger
bible.ca/islam/islam-encyclopedia-westerners-need-to-know-list.htm
I just don’t like to see you potentially put yourself in danger
T
TriciaF
Guest
muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/
Rather than liking Islamic spirituality, please pray with all your heart for the survival and triumph of Christian spirituality
A German who lived through the second world war and fought in it, sent me this message:
A German’s View on Islam.
This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.
The author’s references to past history are accurate and clear. It’s not a lengthy read, it’s easy to understand, and it’s well worth the read.
The author of this message is Dr.Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist. A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.
When he was asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. ‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care.
I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’
We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.
Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march.It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide.
It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa. Iraq, Syria and are gradually taking over in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. .
It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers. The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ‘silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people…
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.
Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario, and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord’s Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?)The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.
In Australia, and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them, just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.
In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go” zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.
As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts - the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.
So, , read this and think about it, - before it’s too late.
And we are
silent…
Rather than liking Islamic spirituality, please pray with all your heart for the survival and triumph of Christian spirituality
A German who lived through the second world war and fought in it, sent me this message:
A German’s View on Islam.
This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read.
The author’s references to past history are accurate and clear. It’s not a lengthy read, it’s easy to understand, and it’s well worth the read.
The author of this message is Dr.Emanuel Tanya, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist. A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates.
When he was asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. ‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care.
I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’
We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace.
Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam. The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march.It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide.
It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa. Iraq, Syria and are gradually taking over in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. .
It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers. The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ‘silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.
China’s huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people…
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence. Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don’t speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late.
Now Islamic prayers have been introduced into Toronto and other public schools in Ontario, and, yes, in Ottawa too while the Lord’s Prayer was removed (due to being so offensive?)The Islamic way may be peaceful for the time being in our country until the fanatics move in.
In Australia, and indeed in many countries around the world, many of the most commonly consumed food items have the halal emblem on them, just to appease the privileged minority who are now rapidly expanding within the nation’s shores.
In the U.K, the Muslim communities refuse to integrate and there are now dozens of “no-go” zones within major cities across the country that the police force dare not intrude upon. Sharia law prevails there, because the Muslim community in those areas refuse to acknowledge British law.
As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts - the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand.
So, , read this and think about it, - before it’s too late.
And we are
silent…
E
Eric_Hilbert
Guest
**Again…
Please remain within forum posting rules on inter-religious dialogue. **
- Status