Is it bad to like Islamic spirituality?

[josie_L]

Fair bein fair, GOD is a Just and Righteous GOD. He can do no evil. Nor is He irrational.

Absolutely, in fact, this is what I am arguing.

 

[TonyBS]

Absolutely, in fact, this is what I am arguing.

From a Baha’i view God can do as he Pleaseth, but it is the standard, it is not wrong, it is most likely covered in this quote;

"Verily God is fully capable of causing all names to appear in one name, and all souls in one soul. Surely powerful and mighty is He. And this Return is realized at His behest in whatever form He willeth. Indeed He is the One Who doeth and ordaineth all things. Moreover, thou shouldst not perceive the fulfilment of the Return and the Resurrection save in the Word of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Knowing. For instance, were He to take a handful of earth and declare it to be the One Whom ye have been following in the past, it would undoubtedly be just and true, even as His real Person, and to none is given the right to question His authority. ****He doeth what He willeth and ordaineth whatsoever He pleaseth. ****Moreover, in this station take thou heed not to turn thy gaze unto limitations and allusions, but rather unto that whereby the Revelation itself hath been fulfilled and be of them that are discerning. Thus do We explain for thee in a lucid and explicit language that thou mayest comprehend that which thou didst seek from thine ancient Lord. reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-13.html

This is how Baha’is accept the Spiritual foundation of Islam.

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

First, off, God is a God of Justice, so when justice is meted out, then it is deserved, but God would not use his omnipotent powers to willy nilly destroy humanity, His actions are always rational and with a purpose that will bring about a better good. The same, however, cannot be said for people who use violence in order to conquer and compel others to their faith, this is anathema to God, who, in fact, has given us free will and a conscience in which to come to the truth via His revelations, graces, and reason. His being “LOGOS” means that faith and reason go hand in glove, that is, violence should have no part in our relationship with the God of “LOGOS”. It is furthermore an insult to God to USE our faith in a manner that is violent, unless, of course, we are given no choice, as in the case of a defensive war, which was the case for the Jews who had to fend off many enemies to get to Israel and remain there. So do not compare the justice that God metes out upon those who deserve it, with us mere mortals who do not have omnipotence and omniscient powers.

They conspired against Israel with the help of the King of Moab, their intent was to destroy God’s people.

Well, here’s a text from the Jewish encyclopedia, which references scripture:

Jews only fought wars when they were up against enemies who wished to destroy and/or annihilate them (by means of war and/or spiritual corruption and idol worship).

I would like to quote you from post #122 josie:

Because violence and reason are INCOMPATIBLE with a God who is “LOGOS”.

Is this a God of reason in the Old Testament that meted out justice to unborn children by killing off all the women in Midian too?

Violence and reason are incompatible with LOGOS, as you point out.

How is it non-violent to kill an unborn child?
How is non-violent to kill all “potentially” pregnant women?

Sounds very much like the God talking to Muhammad if one were to be sincerely, and I mean sincerely, objective…

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[Servant19]

You cannot even begin to comprehend why God did what He did, because you are neither omniscient and/or omnipotent, therefore, rather than accusing Jesus of having blood on His hands, which is unbelievably naïve of you to compare the actions of God to a mere mortal. Put into perspective what was at stake if the Jews were wiped off the face of the earth, being that they were God’s people ,and the ones with whom God had foretold through the prophets that salvation would come from for the sake of the whole world.

Yes, it is fair, for the latter did so to preserve Judaism from annihilation, while the former used violence as a means to compel people to Islam.

How is killing pregnant women in Midian, and keeping non-pregnant women as slaves considered an act of “preserving Judaism”?

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[Servant19]

Fair bein fair, GOD is a Just and Righteous GOD. He can do no evil. Nor is He irrational.

I agree with you.

It’s the twisting the agenda to make the Islamic God to be different to the Old Testament God that has all fair-minded observers of this thread baffled.

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[TonyBS]

I agree with you.

It’s the twisting the agenda to make the Islamic God to be different to the Old Testament God that has all fair-minded observers of this thread baffled.

.

Or impatient middle aged men scratching their heads

Simple I am

Be Lovers of the Light no matter where it shines, is wonderfully simplistic to me

Reading the Bible, Reading the Koran and other scriptures, the power of the word does just that, lights the Soul.

But contained within all those Words and messages is challenges for us all.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[josie_L]

I would like to quote you from post #122 josie:

Yes, and I stand by my words, however, what you fail to distinguish is the reasons in which those violent actions have arisen, i.e., Muhammed was not being attacked when he and his followers went conquering vast territories and compelling the people whom they conquered to convert to Islam or die (or become dhimmis), i.e., Judaism’s only intent was to reach the promise land and nothing more, it was not a religion of expansionism nor a religion compelled to evangelize others by way of the sword. The fact of the matter is that the Jews had many enemies conspiring against them, and hence, the only means by which they were able to SURVIVE was to go to war with them (if they had to kill the male children it was due in fact to the possibility of those male children growing into male adults seeking revenge and thereby perpetuating a cycle of violence).

Moreover, my comments about violence and reason were never meant to imply that God was a pacifist as that would put me in a rather awkward position of denying the totality of the Old Testament. My comments were meant to convey that WE do not have the right to use violence as a means to SUBJUGATE and/or COMPEL others to our faith, because this is incompatible with a God who is “LOGOS”, and who has imbued us with reason.

There is no reason for violent tactics unless it is for reasons of defence and preservation, which Muhammed and his followers could not lay claim to because they were the aggressors, they were the ones initiating the violence and spreading it far and wide.

Is this a God of reason in the Old Testament that meted out justice to unborn children by killing off all the women in Midian too?

If the Midianite women were killed then it was done so to preserve and protect Judaism from corruption by a people who were themselves idol worshippers and/or corrupted (the Midianites were in league with the Amorites and other idol worshippers of a kind that practiced human sacrifice, sexual perversities and even cannabalism).

I am unaware, however, of unborn children being killed, do you have some scripture which mentions this?

 

[josie_L]

How is killing pregnant women in Midian, and keeping non-pregnant women as slaves considered an act of “preserving Judaism”?

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Here is part of the scripture concerning the Midianites:

31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people.”

3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel.” 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

As for the girls who never slept with a man, there were 32 000, and yes, I assume they were enslaved because in Judaism you didn’t so much convert to the faith as belong to it by way of blood/heritage. However, I am again touched by your naivete concerning matters of war, which I will remind you was not something which the Jews sought, but was thrust upon them, so being that so many women were now without homes or husbands, the only logical thing remaining that could be done was to enslave them (it’s not like they could wander about searching for work and/or a husband). Slavery at the very least afforded them with the necessities of life, but they were from all intents and purposes, slaves like Hagar was a slave, thus, this type of slavery is not to be confused with chattel slavery.

As for the unborn children who you say were killed, there is no mention, however, perhaps if you read this article concerning the context of how the wars between the Midianites and other tribes and Israelites ensued, it might help you better understand my argument:

christianthinktank.com/midian.html

 

[TheAtheist]

The goals and the vision is proposed by the teachings.
No religion has fully understood how to narrow the gap between the lofty standards set by the teachings and the inept deeds of those who profess to adhere to those teachings.
.

That we mostly fall short is not the problem of the Messenger or message, but our lack of ability to apply Free Will to reach the Goal Given.

I think that’s where both of you kind of skid off the rails regarding the evaluation of how ideas are implemented in a society…and eventually discarded.

A Non-Religious Example: There are to this very day, a number of people who subscribe to a spectrum of Marxist ideas regarding some future Workers Utopia.

When confronted with the failures of Implementation (turning idea or Message if you will into a Reality) they give a response quite similar to your own.

The Idea isn’t at Fault - People are.

Of course, we now enter a dilemma - because if Ideas and Messages cannot be faulted - how can one really test whether the idea/message is one that maps over Reality accurately?

And what use is an Idea that cannot be Implemented or can only be implemented by a small number of people?

It points to a level of inefficiency that isn’t generally tolerated in other subjects that are less…emotional…as philosophical or religious viewpoints.

 

[TheAtheist]

I wonder if Meltzerboy still frequents these boards. I’d love to hear the Modern Jewish take on these matters…

 

[TonyBS]

Of course, we now enter a dilemma - because if Ideas and Messages cannot be faulted - how can one really test whether the idea/message is one that maps over Reality accurately?

And what use is an Idea that cannot be Implemented or can only be implemented by a small number of people?

It points to a level of inefficiency that isn’t generally tolerated in other subjects that are less…emotional…as philosophical or religious viewpoints.

First gauge is the message a solution to the problem, one has to be Unbiased in that judgement.

Then Education - Start teaching in the schools tomorrow and the next Generation changes.

Nature is reflected in Gods Ways, this world is all about learning to use Free Will. As with everything its starts small grows Bigger.

Plant a oak seed you get a mighty tree, plant a thistle you get a thistle. Thus it is with what we plant in Humanity.

Big Subject, but ties into appreciating what is Spiritually Correct within Religions and what has been converted by man. No religion is exempt from Mans Influence in one way or another. But times are changing

Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Yes, and I stand by my words, however, what you fail to distinguish is the reasons in which those violent actions have arisen, i.e., Muhammed was not being attacked when he and his followers went conquering vast territories and compelling the people whom they conquered to convert to Islam or die (or become dhimmis), i.e., Judaism’s only intent was to reach the promise land and nothing more, it was not a religion of expansionism nor a religion compelled to evangelize others by way of the sword. The fact of the matter is that the Jews had many enemies conspiring against them, and hence, the only means by which they were able to SURVIVE was to go to war with them (if they had to kill the male children it was due in fact to the possibility of those male children growing into male adults seeking revenge and thereby perpetuating a cycle of violence).

Moreover, my comments about violence and reason were never meant to imply that God was a pacifist as that would put me in a rather awkward position of denying the totality of the Old Testament. My comments were meant to convey that WE do not have the right to use violence as a means to SUBJUGATE and/or COMPEL others to our faith, because this is incompatible with a God who is “LOGOS”, and who has imbued us with reason.

There is no reason for violent tactics unless it is for reasons of defence and preservation, which Muhammed and his followers could not lay claim to because they were the aggressors, they were the ones initiating the violence and spreading it far and wide.

If the Midianite women were killed then it was done so to preserve and protect Judaism from corruption by a people who were themselves idol worshippers and/or corrupted (the Midianites were in league with the Amorites and other idol worshippers of a kind that practiced human sacrifice, sexual perversities and even cannabalism).

I am unaware, however, of unborn children being killed, do you have some scripture which mentions this?

Again, I have a strong suspicion that you have been fed incredibly skewed anti-Islamic propaganda about the history of Islam.

You know, I’ve had very similar conversations with Muslims about Bahai history. I never thought that some Christians followed a similar pattern!

I will keep it simple and objective by offering a Wikipedia link:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans

During the very early days of Muhammad’s Dispensation, it was the slaves who converted to Islam, not by force, by recognition of the beauty of Muhammad. A slave of a polytheist master had little to look forward to in life, brutality was commonplace, so I think IF (and I mean IF…ie this didn’t happen) a slave was told “convert to Islam or die” he would’ve chosen to die. Why? Because the conversion to Islam brought with it torture and persecution by the polytheistic masters.

I quote for your convenience from Wikipedia again:

The master of the slave Bilal ibn Rabah (who would become the first muezzin) would take him out into the desert in the heat of midday and place a heavy rock on his chest, demanding that he forswear his religion and pray to the polytheists’ gods and goddesses, until Abu Bakr bought him and freed him.

This happened on several occasions.

Would the Old Testament God consider this a threat to the preservation and survival of a religion?

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[Servant19]

Of course, we now enter a dilemma - because if Ideas and Messages cannot be faulted - how can one really test whether the idea/message is one that maps over Reality accurately?

And what use is an Idea that cannot be Implemented or can only be implemented by a small number of people?

Indeed this strikes at the core of religion.

The aim is to reduce the HUGE GAP between idea and reality which has been the (seeming) failure of religion to date.

The process of action, reflection, learning, consultation, planning and implementation is what is the role of religion in today’s modern world, and is the core of Baha’i community building.

Of course there will always be those that wish to abstain from idea implementation (the aim is that this number should reduce dramatically). The scientific reality that vaccination prevents disease and death, unfortunately hasn’t hindered the reality that there are some who do not wish to participate in the implementation of this idea.

Hope that helps

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[jimkhong]

I am Catholic and I believe totally in Catholic theology. I am against all heresy, especially that of Islam which has waged war on Christendom and Europe.

Well, I must say that before I studied Islam I used to think that we are the same being cousins with Abraham as our ancestor in faith but after studying Islam I realised I could not be Muslim because the values were so fundamentally different.

Here I am not saying that this is an issue of right and wrong. The Church is very clear in her teaching that there is truth in Islam. It is just that you have to be clear about the principles that underpins their religion. Put away those rose-tinted glasses .

A book by a Muslim Sufi early in my career taught me that inter-religious dialogue is like opening windows to each other’s houses. Good to peep into each other’s practices, etc. But windows implies walls. You have to know the limits up to which you can agree, beyond which you cannot call yourself a Catholic anymore.

I would like to share with you where I see the walls as I understand it.

That said, I do like Islamic spirituality and I use Islamic sources for prayer sometimes. What a contradiction, I know. I love Islam’s dedication to monotheism(they misunderstand the Trinity. I believe totally in the Trinity, but we ARE monotheistic and I love their fierceness about that).

Well so am I and I do admit to once during a Ignatian retreat, I asked God to make me a better Muslim. I meant it in the meaning of the term Muslim: ‘total submission to God’. In some context it is praiseworthy but as a everyday way of thinking, it would be difficult for me. Islam is about one’s accepting God’s will and follow it without needing to ask and understand why. It is the terminology of a slave, seeking only his master’s will and carrying it out without hesitation.

Christianity is however not about what & how you do things but why you do it. The intentions have to be pure as opposed to Islam’s requirement to follow unhesitatingly the prescribed methods set out in God’s revelation in the Quran. Ultimately, Christianity is about following and having a relationship with a person, Jesus. Islam is about following a book, which is God’s only relationship with his people.

By the way, I am a little puzzled what you mean by Islamic spirituality. Islam is largely a body of prescribed rituals for every aspect of life. The only area of spirituality as we understand it is in Sufi Islam, which finds its roots in Coptic monasticism after some early Muslims rebelled against those same rituals. So, if you want the spirituality, you can go to its roots, which is Christian monasteries.

I love their focus on fasting. Fasting is a HUGE part of Islamic life.

Catholics have our fasting as well. If you feel that Catholic fasting has been watered down, there is nothing stopping you from customising the rules to suit you. Or you can go for the more ascetic Orthodox fasting. In the end Christian fasting is only a means to an end - which is the drawing closer to the divine through self-sacrifice.

In Islam, fasting is a requirement. The primary motivation for fasting is to comply with the Quran. There may of course be secondary motivations for individuals such as empathy for the poor, etc, but these remain secondary.

Islamic fasting is ritualistic in nature. You start at a specific time and you end at a specific time. Depending on interpretation, you cannot swallow your own saliva and you keep your month shut during showers. If you are not able to fast because you are sick, pregnant, traveling etc., you have to make it up another day. It is good for you to think about God and others during fasting but not necessary - primary is to go through the day to sunset in accordance to the rules. Whatever it is, you don’t change the rules.

What is proscribed is not allowed and what is not proscribed is allowed. In one of our more conservative states, I once saw a religious police stationing himself outside a KFC during the fasting month checking religions of patron. And he was smoking (smoking is discouraged in Islam but not forbidden)

I love their traditionalism, in dress, government, and language. They pray in their religion’s mother tongue, they dress traditionally, and they generally accept more pre-democracy governments. I am a cultural traditionalist myself, so this is cool imo.

The reason why they pray in Arabic is that the Quran was written in Arabic. Muslims believe that God personally wrote the Quran (not that he inspired Mohammad to write it). That is why the only valid Quran is in Arabic and all prayers are in Arabic. Not just Arabic but only 7th century Arabic and not just that but 7th century Arabic of the Qurashi dialect, Mohammad’s tribe. As a result of believing that whatever God wrote cannot be altered, what you see as traditionalism is really a calcification of practices according to the norms of the time when the Quran was written. Traditional Islam is therefore backward looking whereas contemporary Christianity looks forward in hope.

 

[jimkhong]

I am attracted to how they defend their faith. Islam tolerates no heresy, no blasphemy, no apostasy. I am talking about moderate Islam, NOT the liberal Islam of the US, nor the terrorists of ISIS, rather the normal moderates in the Middle East. They will drive heresy out of their country.

It is often said that here is no compulsion in Islam. What they mean is that there is no force to join Islam but once joined, they cannot leave. So, Muslims remain Muslims not because they are convinced this is the right religion but because of the force of legal and social pressures and impediments.

This leads to an odd situation where some Muslims in my country claim the Muslims do not have full religious freedom despite the many positive discrimination in favour of Muslims. Because non-Muslims can decide to change their religion but Muslims can’t.

I LOVE how most governments of Islamic nations are actually Islamic governments, how the government is committed to safeguarding the Islamic faith.

Sorry to disappoint you but politicians are politicians whether they are Muslim or Catholic or secular. The governments are not Islamic governments but merely using Islam if it suits the politicians in power. In my country and many other Muslim majority countries, it is clear that the religion has been used for political purposes. Not that Christian politicians are any different but at least most Christians don’t buy it any more. (Oh sorry, I forgot in America tea-party land …)

I try to apply these ideas to Catholicism. Is that bad? A note, Catholicism was just like that in the Middle Ages, but only Islam is like that now, so I often find myself reading Islamic spirituality articles as I research traditional Christianity. Is that a bad thing for me to be like this? Am I hurting my faith, or common sense?

So, my advice is to understand Islam as it is practiced rather than the myths that is being fed. You can still decide once you see its true principles that it still attracts you. But at least you decide based on the values they have rather than some single narrow feature that is attractive but may or may not be rooted in reality.

 

[Even_So]

I wonder if Meltzerboy still frequents these boards. I’d love to hear the Modern Jewish take on these matters…

Or Frangiuliano115. Where is he at?

 

[Even_So]

First gauge is the message a solution to the problem, one has to be Unbiased in that judgement.

Then Education - Start teaching in the schools tomorrow and the next Generation changes.

Nature is reflected in Gods Ways, this world is all about learning to use Free Will. As with everything its starts small grows Bigger.

Plant a oak seed you get a mighty tree, plant a thistle you get a thistle. Thus it is with what we plant in Humanity.

Big Subject, but ties into appreciating what is Spiritually Correct within Religions and what has been converted by man. No religion is exempt from Mans Influence in one way or another. But times are changing

Regards Tony

Well we certainly have been taught about gay sexual preferences a couple generations ago and now it is law.
This world has been learning how to use free will since as long as we have been here. We won’t ever learn.
You think there will be a religion exempt from Man’s influnce? I say its in place now and always has been. Man influences man not to seek the Truth , but his own ways.

 

[Even_So]

Does Baha’i teach that GOD is love? I did not read all posts .

 

[TonyBS]

Does Baha’i teach that GOD is love? I did not read all posts .

Yes - God is Love in all the Religions

One of the most important thing for that love is also Justice, For Love to reach us we have to be Just in all our decisions I like this quote and consider it often;

“O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes”. reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/HW/hw-3.html

May the God of Love Bless you always - Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Well we certainly have been taught about gay sexual preferences a couple generations ago and now it is law. This world has been learning how to use free will since as long as we have been here. We won’t ever learn. You think there will be a religion exempt from Man’s influnce? I say its in place now and always has been. Man influences man not to seek the Truth , but his own ways.

I think we can Learn and in this age there are so many more people walking the path of service to God. IMHO The world will learn, it has been promised!!!

What can be noted that in past religions, the worst influence is that of neglecting Gods Covenant and splitting His Religion, to date none have been exempt.

I think now the Covenant of God is strong, we will see a fresh understanding that there is only One God and it is to This One God we all turn.

Regards Tony