Is it bad to like Islamic spirituality?

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Even_So said:
Does Baha’i teach that GOD is love? I did not read all posts .
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One of my favorites!

*“Love is only of the four kinds that I have explained. (a) The love of God towards the identity of God. Christ has said God is Love. (b) The love of God for His children – for His servants. (c) The love of man for God and (d) the love of man for man. These four kinds of love originate from God. These are rays from the Sun of Reality; these are the Breathings of the Holy Spirit; these are the Signs of the Reality.”
*
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 183
 
I have read all the previous posts and I am going to put a wrench in it all. With some I agree and others I do not. I will deal with the message of Islam rather than what individual Moslems do or do not do. Islam is based on what Moslems consider the “insan al kamil” or “the perfect man.” If a Moslem, a sect of Islam, strays from Mohamed’s words and actions I find that a good thing but… I still hold reservations due to the different forms of jihad and it is not the rule but the exception when they stray. I find no spirituality in the message of Islam. I do not find the message of love in Islam’s texts, or sharia, either.

Emulating Mohamed is also a part of Islam and that is troublesome because Mohamed was not a perfect man, as the Moslem’s claim. He was a warlord, pedophile, murderer, torturer, slaver, rapist, polygamist (just a way to ok adultery), and a liar. His telling his followers to lie in a peace treaty that they made with a tribe is followed to this day - it is called a hudna, but the other side does not know that they will not keep their word for very long. That is just one example of a mile long set of examples to show that Mohamed was not a nice guy.

To equate Allah with God is not knowing what Islam’s texts say about Allah. Allah is known as a liar, proudful, demands to be worshiped, a peacock, a lamp, and a fickle god. Allah changes its mind (abrogation not only of the texts in the Koran but of what it said is the truth before it - or the Bible). And then if you do read the Koran you will find that Allah creates verses in it that surprisingly (well, not so surprising if you think that Allah was made up by Mohamed to get what he wanted - Allah was his pagan god before Islam) gave Mohamed whatever he wanted. Allah ok’d Mohamed to get his son’s wife, a child of 6 years old, booty and loot if he wasn’t along with his jihadists when they attacked numerous caravans, etc.

Firstly, to me this doesn’t sound like God… it sounds like the one we call Satan. I think that Moslems want to think it is God but there are too many evils that Allah allows and sanctions, and some of those are even in its ‘heaven’! A very unspiritual place - a place where women and little boys are abused for eternity. If Allah allows that sort of abuse, what other abuses does it allow? And Mohamed doesn’t sound like a Prophet but a guy who might have wanted to be one but became a warlord instead and placed a god in the mix which made a very successful way for him to get what he wanted. Islam almost disappeared after Mohamed died but, unfortunately, it didn’t and it spread via terror. And as the book, ‘The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam: From Jihad to Dhimmitude : Seventh-Twentieth Century’ also tells of how Moslems used jihad by emigration to infiltrate, gain useful idiots and eventually terror to conquer.

Not too much spirituality in all of that!

When anyone says that Allah is ‘merciful, forgiving, loving, compassionate, and even the more personal term “tender” (raouf) is used in the Koran, amongst other things which are the same as the God of the OT’, then I have no idea where they pulled those things from the Koran from. I do read it a lot but I don’t read it any examples of that from the Koran .
 
staffsgt7 said:
Not too much spirituality in all of that!.
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I see you have learned from Muslim hate sites, so I would agree with this part of your reply.

It is posts like this that make the world as it is. Is this what a Catholic is all about?

God bless Justice in an unbiased search of Evidence for a prophet of GOD.

Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
I see you have learned from Muslim hate sites, so I would agree with this part of your reply.

It is posts like this that make the world as it is. Is this what a Catholic is all about?

God bless Justice in an unbiased search of Evidence for a prophet of GOD.

Regards Tony
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Your response is only an attempt to shut me up without any real discussion. Unfortunately, I have read the Koran, Sunnah, have books on three schools of sharia laws and a fortunate thing is that being a Catholic does not mean to be silent or to cower in a corner when people denigrate me, bash me to try to shut me up.

What Mohamed did and what Allah is are all in Islam’s texts. And if you read them you will find them there too.

If you really knew Islam you would even know what their daily salat contains. It isn’t pleasant to the Jew and Christian. Why are you not on the cases of those who say those prayers?

If you want to know what the Moslem prays then I would suggest reading this article - very informative.

What do muslims pray 5 times a day
pi-news.org/2012/08/what-do-muslims-pray-five-times-a-day/
 
Servant19 said:
Again, I have a strong suspicion that you have been fed incredibly skewed anti-Islamic propaganda about the history of Islam.

You know, I’ve had very similar conversations with Muslims about Bahai history. I never thought that some Christians followed a similar pattern!

I will keep it simple and objective by offering a Wikipedia link:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims_by_the_Meccans

During the very early days of Muhammad’s Dispensation, it was the slaves who converted to Islam, not by force, by recognition of the beauty of Muhammad. A slave of a polytheist master had little to look forward to in life, brutality was commonplace, so I think IF (and I mean IF…ie this didn’t happen) a slave was told “convert to Islam or die” he would’ve chosen to die. Why? Because the conversion to Islam brought with it torture and persecution by the polytheistic masters.

I quote for your convenience from Wikipedia again:

This happened on several occasions.

Would the Old Testament God consider this a threat to the preservation and survival of a religion?

.
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Sorry, Servant, but Wikipedia is not my source of information when referring to history, i.e., try reading Thomas Madden or William Carroll or some other historian who can put into perspective in what manner Islam spread.

p.s. They were conquering vast territories which enabled them to convert by way of coercion/violence (generally speaking).
 
Do as you must, it may be worth considering this advice

Peace

"During the last six thousand years nations have hated one another, it is now time to stop. War must cease. Let us be united and love one another and await the result. We know the effects of war are bad. So let us try, as an experiment, peace, and if the results of peace are bad, then we can choose if it would be better to go back to the old state of war! Let us in any case make the experiment. If we see that unity brings Light we shall continue it. For six thousand years we have been walking on the left-hand path; let us walk on the right-hand path now. We have passed many centuries in darkness, let us advance towards the light.

Question.—(It was remarked, Theosophy teaches that truth in all the religions is the same): Does the task of unifying all religions have ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s sympathy?

Answer.—Surely.

Question.—Can ‘Abdu’l-Bahá suggest any lines on which it could best be worked out?

Answer.—Search for truth. Seek the realities in all religions. Put aside all superstitions. Many of us do not realize the Reality of all Religions".

Change starts in our won hearts 😊

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
The sad thing about Islamic slavery is that after the men and boys with hair (boys who reached puberty) were beheaded, the rest were taken into slavery. That includes the wives, mothers, children (boys and girls) of the recently slain men (husbands, fathers, etc).

They were ok to rape and Mohamed even said they could impregnate the women.

It still goes on today. And here is a chilling writeup of what those who are captured go through.

Slavery in Islam
answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm

We read about it in alternative news sources that women and children are taken and sexually abused, forced into either slavery or forced ‘marriages’. Some are held for ransom most are not.

A former slave, Deng, has spoken for the slaves in the past: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN7NwUhQzeE

I just don’t find the spirituality in Islam. I do see the submission, forced submission too. Islam is the only religion that forces its laws onto others either in the form of slavery or subjugation (dhimmi) or a people who are not considered slaves but must pay an extortion payment (jizya) and they are meant to be humiliated, cannot retaliate against abuses, must not be armed, etc.
 
staffsgt7 said:
The sad thing about Islamic slavery is that after the men and boys with hair (boys who reached puberty) were beheaded, the rest were taken into slavery. That includes the wives, mothers, children (boys and girls) of the recently slain men (husbands, fathers, etc).

They were ok to rape and Mohamed even said they could impregnate the women.

It still goes on today. And here is a chilling writeup of what those who are captured go through.

Slavery in Islam
answering-islam.org/Silas/slavery.htm

We read about it in alternative news sources that women and children are taken and sexually abused, forced into either slavery or forced ‘marriages’. Some are held for ransom most are not.

A former slave, Deng, has spoken for the slaves in the past: www.youtube.com/watch?v=uN7NwUhQzeE

I just don’t find the spirituality in Islam. I do see the submission, forced submission too. Islam is the only religion that forces its laws onto others either in the form of slavery or subjugation (dhimmi) or a people who are not considered slaves but must pay an extortion payment (jizya) and they are meant to be humiliated, cannot retaliate against abuses, must not be armed, etc.
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You could go on like this forever if you look at mans Short commings, but then you would have to look in the backyard of ones own Faith and that also may be an opener.

Thus we look for the good in everything and let God punish the Bad

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
You could go on like this forever if you look at mans Short commings, but then you would have to look in the backyard of ones own Faith and that also may be an opener.

Thus we look for the good in everything and let God punish the Bad

God Bless and Regards Tony
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‘mans short comings’? This is Islam’s teachings - its message. It is why it all still exists today. The shortcoming are those that are afraid of admitting to it all. If you read the first post the reason why it still happens is due to the thought that Mohamed was the perfect man. It is why sharia doesn’t change and ban such things.

You are giving nothing except bashing and trying to take this to a personal level - go to the texts and tell me differently.

Koran (33:50) - “O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee”

slavery: Koran 33:50 23:5-6 4:24 8:69 24:32 2:178 16:75 plus more hadith than I care to sit here and type.
 
staffsgt7 said:
‘mans short comings’? This is Islam’s teachings - its message. It is why it all still exists today. The shortcoming are those that are afraid of admitting to it all. If you read the first post the reason why it still happens is due to the thought that Mohamed was the perfect man. It is why sharia doesn’t change and ban such things.

You are giving nothing except bashing and trying to take this to a personal level - go to the texts and tell me differently.

Koran (33:50) - “O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee”

slavery: Koran 33:50 23:5-6 4:24 8:69 24:32 2:178 16:75 plus more hadith than I care to sit here and type.
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It will be no point in discussing this, as you have your mind set.

If you want to balance it, did you Search Christianity and Slavery, was it lawful for Christians?

You will be happy to know it has been made unlawful for over 150 years and with that I leave this section of the discussion.

God Bless and Regards Tony
 
TonyBS said:
It will be no point in discussing this, as you have your mind set.

If you want to balance it, did you Search Christianity and Slavery, was it lawful for Christians?

You will be happy to know it has been made unlawful for over 150 years and with that I leave this section of the discussion.

God Bless and Regards Tony
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Christians were among the first to discourage and ultimately ban slavery.
 
TonyBS said:
Do as you must, it may be worth considering this advice

Peace

"During the last six thousand years nations have hated one another, it is now time to stop. War must cease. Let us be united and love one another and await the result. We know the effects of war are bad. So let us try, as an experiment, peace, and if the results of peace are bad, then we can choose if it would be better to go back to the old state of war! Let us in any case make the experiment. If we see that unity brings Light we shall continue it. For six thousand years we have been walking on the left-hand path; let us walk on the right-hand path now. We have passed many centuries in darkness, let us advance towards the light.

Question.—(It was remarked, Theosophy teaches that truth in all the religions is the same): Does the task of unifying all religions have ‘Abdu’l-Bahá’s sympathy?

Answer.—Surely.

Question.—Can ‘Abdu’l-Bahá suggest any lines on which it could best be worked out?

Answer.—Search for truth. Seek the realities in all religions. Put aside all superstitions. Many of us do not realize the Reality of all Religions".

Change starts in our won hearts 😊

God Bless and Regards Tony
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Well, if you want the truth then you have to admit to it instead of bashing when confronted with it.

As for peace, I don’t say don’t be peaceful. I think we should pray for them but not deny what Islam’s message is, what their god is all about and what their Prophet was all about. Ignorance does not make peace.

And we should be asking them all the hard questions as to why they are more obsessed about what we know of Islam after we read their texts and why there are so many who do not wage violent jihad that do nothing to stop the violent jihadists. If all the energy were put into stopping them and changing the sharia laws, the daily salat, etc - something would get done. But nothing is being done to do or change anything.

But we, non-Moslems, must also realize that being politically correct about a very bad ideology/religion is not being peaceful nor helpful. It endangers our children because they will think it is ok to be a Moslem and follow the god of war, to do a daily salat that denigrates and bashes Christians and Jews then calls for Sharia laws (Allah’s path/way) that very clearly states that jihad is to ‘…war against the non-Moslems…’. And whenever Jihad is mentioned in Islamic texts, 97% of the time it says to do violence against the non-Moslems.
 
TonyBS said:
Try this one - True - islamicperspectives.com/GodAndLove.htm

Again you will find what you look for and now enough said as I need to again Focus on Love 😉

Regards Tony
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Ironically, Islam’s texts says that Allah creates people to sin. A good video and a man who really knows his stuff: answeringmuslims.com/2014/03/does-allah-want-people-to-sin.html

Allah creates people to sin - I will only post a few verses and remember that sahih means authentic so to deny their hadith is to deny Islam. Moslems usually deny stuff in the hadith that is embarrassing for them. Basically if we don’t sin Allah threatens us - so much for love!

Sahih Muslim 6621 book 37

Book 37, Number 6621:

Abu Ayyub Ansari reported that Allah’s Messenger said: If you were not to commit sins, Allah would have swept you out of existence and would have replaced you by another people who have committed sin, and then asked forgiveness from Allah, and He would have granted them pardon.

Book 37, Number 6622:

Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.

Allah’s heaven is eternal sin - the abuse of women and little boys. If it allows this abuse in its heaven, what other sin is allowed? Well, the sin of alcohol is allowed but that is really minor (in my mind), but what other abuses are allowed in that heaven of Allah’s? Since Allah changes its mind, and even lies, well… I wonder about that heavenly abode of Allah’s.
 
Here is some more problems with Islam:

BTW, one note said that idol worship has been banned in the Arabian peninsula - it has not. I think someone overlooked the kaaba and the black stone that Moslems not only bow to in their daily salat 5 times a day, but it is something that they visit at least once in their life to kiss, feel, walk around, etc. It is said to take away sins and well… that sounds like idol worship to me!!

And the Koran has blasphemy concerning Jesus. Their Isa did not even die, Judas substituted himself in Isa’s place therefore Isa didn’t Rise from the dead. And their Isa has many other problems, although he is said to be born of a virgin and sinless. It seems that Isa would be a better role model than Mohamed since Mohamed admitted several times he was sinful and even wanted to jump off a mountain a few times. And Mohamed died the death of a false prophet, according to the Koran - his aorta was ‘cut off’, at least that is what Mohamed described. Isa is labeled a Messiah, although have never gotten a straight answer from any Moslem what ‘Messiah’ means to them.

The problem with reciting the Koran is that they do not read, comprehend nor are allowed to think and/or question it. Most Moslems don’t know arabic so they do not know what it says and they depend on their imams for much of it. If Moslems are not doing what the message of Islam says then that is great. They are not following the message of Islam and that is why we need to look and read what that message is and know the difference. But very few (how many??!!) reach out to the violent ones to change their perception of Islam’s message.

And part of that message is that jihad is an obligation with different forms of jihad, other than violence - the most holy form of Jihad - being acceptable: by the word/pen (deception, propaganda), funding (part of zakat funds violent jihad), emigration (to build up the number of Moslems to become a political force), violence, etc. and any or all ways to advance Islam/sharia laws. Islam is successful due to not only the deception to what Islam’s message is to the uninformed due to ‘Jihad by the word/pen’ or deception but also because of terror and apostasy rules. Most don’t even know that a mosque is not only a place of worship but also for political gatherings, military gatherings, weapons storage and social events (read: The Mosque Exposed)

The hadith and sira are much easier to read, the Koran is very kludgy - it is not in any historical or any order at all. There is abrogation where the older verses (Meccan) were abrogated by the newer verses (Medina). The Meccan verses are basically the peaceful verse and the Medina verses are the more violent verses. If the peaceful verses apply to anyone it is only Moslem to Moslem. The verses that were not abrogated are the verses about women. Most of the Meccan verses, when mentioned, are usually abrogated in the same chapter with only a few abrogated in later chapters.
 
TonyBS said:
Try this one - True - islamicperspectives.com/GodAndLove.htm

Again you will find what you look for and now enough said as I need to again Focus on Love 😉

Regards Tony
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Searched document for “God is love” - not found. What I did find is that it claims love is an “attribute” of God. This is false. Love is not an aspect or part or facet of God.

Did you read the Encyclical by Benedict XVI which I linked for you?
 
ialsop said:
I am Catholic and I believe totally in Catholic theology. I am against all heresy, especially that of Islam which has waged war on Christendom and Europe.

That said, I do like Islamic spirituality and I use Islamic sources for prayer sometimes. What a contradiction, I know. I love Islam’s dedication to monotheism(they misunderstand the Trinity. I believe totally in the Trinity, but we ARE monotheistic and I love their fierceness about that).
I love their focus on fasting. Fasting is a HUGE part of Islamic life.
I love their traditionalism, in dress, government, and language. They pray in their religion’s mother tongue, they dress traditionally, and they generally accept more pre-democracy governments. I am a cultural traditionalist myself, so this is cool imo.
I am attracted to how they defend their faith. Islam tolerates no heresy, no blasphemy, no apostasy. I am talking about moderate Islam, NOT the liberal Islam of the US, nor the terrorists of ISIS, rather the normal moderates in the Middle East. They will drive heresy out of their country.
I LOVE how most governments of Islamic nations are actually Islamic governments, how the government is committed to safeguarding the Islamic faith.

I try to apply these ideas to Catholicism. Is that bad? A note, Catholicism was just like that in the Middle Ages, but only Islam is like that now, so I often find myself reading Islamic spirituality articles as I research traditional Christianity. Is that a bad thing for me to be like this? Am I hurting my faith, or common sense?
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There was a Catholic who took the Spiritual Path of Islam, his name was Frithjof Schoun.
He followed the Shadhili tariqa and once he became a Shaykh of the Spiritual Path, he named the Spiritual path after Mary, the Mother of Jesus.

He has a book entitled **The Fullness of God **by Frithjoj Schoun on Christianity, which is a collection of his writings on Christianity. I believe the person who selected the writings is a Christian himself, James S Cutsinger.

This Islamic spiritual path, has written alot of the similarities of Islam and Christian Spiritual path, such as** Paths to the Heart: Sufism and the Christian East** which is a collections of articles written by Orthodox Christian writers and Sunni Muslim writers on the Spiritual path.
 
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