Is it better to die as an infant?

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KevinK said:
I have never heard that one can be in Hell and in a state of peace. What is your source for this?
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It is not defined by the Church, but one possible opinion, since Council of Florence stated that those who die in original sin alone go to hell (but with different punishments). See discussions on limbo.
 
I knew a 5 year old little girl she was baptized. She had a brain disorder she could not speak or reason doctors gave her 3 years she lived 5. In a case where a person can not tell right from wrong there is no mortal sin and the stain of original sin has been taken away with baptism. So she is in heaven.
 
KevinK said:
Nothing peaceful about it:

The Council of Florence on Hell | Catholic Answers
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That council spoke of different punishments consistent with the sins committed. Here is a Vatican source for the common doctrine:
  1. Because children below the age of reason did not commit actual sin, theologians came to the common view that these unbaptised children feel no pain at all, or even that they enjoy a full natural happiness through their union with God in all natural goods (Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus).[49 - Thomas AQUINAS, II Sent., dist. 33, q. 2, a. 2; De malo, q. 5, a. 3. John DUNS SCOTUS, Lectura II, dist. 33, q. un.; Ordinatio II, dist. 33, q. un]
  2. In summary: the affirmation that infants who die without Baptism suffer the privation of the beatific vision has long been the common doctrine of the Church, which must be distinguished from the faith of the Church. As for the theory that the privation of the beatific vision is their sole punishment, to the exclusion of any other pain, this is a theological opinion, despite its long acceptance in the West. The particular theological thesis concerning a “natural happiness” sometimes ascribed to these infants likewise constitutes a theological opinion.
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http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
 
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Well you have to do the will of God according to your state of life,it’s for God to decide whether to take you at the time when your a infant or adult ,God BLESS
 
That depends on the individual. If they are damned, then yes they would have been better off dying as an infant (either baptized or not). But since infants have no merits of their own, any adult who is among the elect would have been worse off had he or she died in infancy.
 
Being pro-life is to hope an infant thrives. This is in some cases beyond our control and there are few things worse than small coffins. Refer to the Catholic teachings on the “Age of Reason” to determine if even toddlers will suffer the pains of hell for sin, as it is clear they do not in our canon. But, consulting a priest may be the best option.
 
Vico said:
If you consider that heaven means having the Beatific Vision and that is given surely only to those with merit. Then is it possible to end in hell (no Beatific Vision) without actual mortal sins, and without merit, in a state of natural peace.
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There is no peace of any kind in Hell.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
 
thistle said:
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Vico:
If you consider that heaven means having the Beatific Vision and that is given surely only to those with merit. Then is it possible to end in hell (no Beatific Vision) without actual mortal sins, and without merit, in a state of natural peace.
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There is no peace of any kind in Hell.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
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Yet there are those that die “with original sin only":
22. … In the developments of medieval doctrine, the loss of the Beatific Vision (poena damni) was understood to be the proper punishment for original sin, whereas the “torments of perpetual hell” constituted the punishment for mortal sins actually committed.[47] In the Middle Ages, the ecclesiastical magisterium affirmed more than once that those “who die in mortal sin” and those who die “with original sin only” receive “different punishments”. [48]

23. Because children below the age of reason did not commit actual sin, theologians came to the common view that these unbaptised children feel no pain at all, or even that they enjoy a full natural happiness through their union with God in all natural goods (Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus). [49]
…
26. … Pius VI defended the right of the Catholic Schools to teach that those who died with the guilt of original sin alone are punished with the lack of the Beatific Vision (“punishment of loss”), but not sensible pains (the punishment of “fire”).
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
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Vico said:
Yet there are those that die “with original sin only":
  1. … In the developments of medieval doctrine, the loss of the Beatific Vision (poena damni) was understood to be the proper punishment for original sin, whereas the “torments of perpetual hell” constituted the punishment for mortal sins actually committed.[47] In the Middle Ages, the ecclesiastical magisterium affirmed more than once that those “who die in mortal sin” and those who die “with original sin only” receive “different punishments”. [48]
  2. Because children below the age of reason did not commit actual sin, theologians came to the common view that these unbaptised children feel no pain at all, or even that they enjoy a full natural happiness through their union with God in all natural goods (Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus). [49]
…
  1. … Pius VI defended the right of the Catholic Schools to teach that those who died with the guilt of original sin alone are punished with the lack of the Beatific Vision (“punishment of loss”), but not sensible pains (the punishment of “fire”).
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
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You seem to think that those who die in original sin only do/might go to Hell. The Church does NOT teach that. In fact the Church does not know what happens to them which is why it simply entrusts such infants to God’s mercy. Your thought process is that if they go to Hell then they must have peace. This is sheer speculation on your part and not supported by any Church doctrine.
 
thistle said:
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You seem to think that those who die in original sin only do/might go to Hell. The Church does NOT teach that. In fact the Church does not know what happens to them which is why it simply entrusts such infants to God’s mercy. Your thought process is that if they go to Hell then they must have peace. This is sheer speculation on your part and not supported by any Church doctrine.
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As quoted in the same document before:
3. … Moreover, the notion that infants who die without Baptism are deprived of the beatific vision, which has for so long been regarded as the common doctrine of the Church, gives rise to numerous pastoral problems, so much so that many pastors of souls have asked for a deeper reflection on the ways of salvation. …

In summary: the affirmation that infants who die without Baptism suffer the privation of the beatific vision has long been the common doctrine of the Church, which must be distinguished from the faith of the Church. As for the theory that the privation of the beatific vision is their sole punishment, to the exclusion of any other pain, this is a theological opinion, despite its long acceptance in the West. The particular theological thesis concerning a “natural happiness” sometimes ascribed to these infants likewise constitutes a theological opinion.
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http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c...aith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html
 
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How is it the Church does not know what happens in this case when it knows in explicit detail about other matters of far less importance to people? It seems to me much more important to know what happens to infants than whether or not Mary was a perpetual virgin, for example.
 
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thistle said:
You seem to think that those who die in original sin only do/might go to Hell. The Church does NOT teach that.
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“But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains” - Council of Florence
 
A couple things are true at the same time:

Our ultimate goal is salvation

We do have the capacity to choose Hell when we get to a certain level of reason and accountability.

We do NOT have the right to shorten our own or anybody else’s life.

So that leaves the question, “better for who?”

You could argue that the “safe” and “easy” way of salvation is to die as a baptized infant.

But God also allows for us to influence each other and to help each other work out our salvation. And we are free to choose for Him.

But it’s a good question and a fair one to ask.

Peace
 
Arkansan said:
“But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains” - Council of Florence
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That is NOT a Church teaching. The Church teaches that it does not know what happens to infants who die in original sin only and that it entrusts them to the mercy of God.

THIS is the Church teaching:

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.
 
thistle said:
That is NOT a Church teaching.
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“But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains” - Council of Florence
 
Arkansan said:
“But the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains” - Council of Florence
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Show me where that is in the CCC!

I quoted the real teaching to you. Now do me the courtesy of showing me where in the CCC it says unbaptised infants (i.e. those who die in original sin only) go to Hell.
 
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