Is it by "Faith Alone"?

[nbtb1348]

The rich man had a dead faith, unwilling to act on the faith the Holy Spirit allowed him to discern. The faith was a gift, by the grace of God, a gift he chose to reject by being unwilling to act as Christ commanded. IOW, he rejected the Holy Spirit.

Jon

Here is what you have to remember about this passage:
This was before the cross. Before the way to salvation had been opened. Jesus quotes the law to this guy. WHY? The NT teaches us that the purpose of the Law is to point out to any of us who are honest about it, that WE CANNOT KEEP THE LAW AND WE NEED A SAVIOR!! That’s the whole purpose of the Law.
So Jesus quotes it to this guy, because the guy thought if Jesus just told him what to do, he was capable of doing it. Then the guy reveals that he thinks he has done all those things, so Jesus continues, by pointing out something He knows the guy won’t obey! Why? So the guy will see the same thing Jesus wanted every Pharisee, every proud Jew, every empty religious person to see–That you can NEVER be good enough to be justified by Holy God, whose standard is far beyond ours. Thus, you need a Savior.

To think Jesus is contradicting all the other teachings on salvation in the NT is to not have read the NT. And again, true faith will ALWAYS be followed by godly works.

That’s all this is about. By the way, NOWHERE does it say this man had saving faith!

 

[Prime]

We are saved by grace through faith. If the faith is real, works will follow. If they don’t follow, it wasn’t genuine faith.

But the works don’t save or keep you saved. They are simply fruit of the new life Christ places inside the person who TRULY repents and believes on the Christ of the cross and the resurrection!

One cannot just assume that Faith is always the precursor of good works.

What about those who started doing something good and found or received the gift of Faith after doing good later on?
Do you exclude that circumstance? What basis from Scripture do you exclude that?

 

[JonNC]

Here is what you have to remember about this passage:
This was before the cross. Before the way to salvation had been opened. Jesus quotes the law to this guy. WHY? The NT teaches us that the purpose of the Law is to point out to any of us who are honest about it, that WE CANNOT KEEP THE LAW AND WE NEED A SAVIOR!! That’s the whole purpose of the Law.
So Jesus quotes it to this guy, because the guy thought if Jesus just told him what to do, he was capable of doing it. Then the guy reveals that he thinks he has done all those things, so Jesus continues, by pointing out something He knows the guy won’t obey! Why? So the guy will see the same thing Jesus wanted every Pharisee, every proud Jew, every empty religious person to see–That you can NEVER be good enough to be justified by Holy God, whose standard is far beyond ours. Thus, you need a Savior.

To think Jesus is contradicting all the other teachings on salvation in the NT is to not have read the NT. And again, true faith will ALWAYS be followed by godly works.

That’s all this is about. By the way, NOWHERE does it say this man had saving faith!

Actually, you are right, and I stand corrected.
Jon

 

[nbtb1348]

One cannot just assume that Faith is always the precursor of good works.

What about those who started doing something good and found or received the gift of Faith after doing good later on?
Do you exclude that circumstance? What basis from Scripture do you exclude that?

That’s a very good point! If you read Romans chapters 6-8, you will see that what happens at the point of salvation is that we are put “In Christ” and are no longer “In the flesh” Paul says in Romans 8 that those who are in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD. There are a lot of “good works” that are done by people, but they are what Hebrews calls ‘dead works’ and they CANNOT PLEASE GOD. Those people are not Christians, but they do some good things in man’s eyes.

 

[nbtb1348]

Actually, you are right, and I stand corrected.
Jon

Bless you for your humility.

 

[JonNC]

Bless you for your humility.

As I have to do it often enough, I’ve gotten good at it.

 

[c659smith]

The rich man had a dead faith, unwilling to act on the faith the Holy Spirit allowed him to discern. The faith was a gift, by the grace of God, a gift he chose to reject by being unwilling to act as Christ commanded. IOW, he rejected the Holy Spirit.

Jon

Exactly so it is faith and works(acts) that makes true life saving faith

 

[nbtb1348]

Exactly so it is faith and works(acts) that makes true life saving faith

Uh, no.Re-read the Scriptures and pray.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Uh, no.Re-read the Scriptures and pray.

Good idea:

Hebrews 3:12-14 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ **if **we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.”

1 Timothy 1:19 “Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked”.

Hebrews 2:1 “Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard,** lest we drift away**”.

Romans 8:13 “For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but** if** by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live”.

1 Timothy 4:1 “But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times **some will fall away **from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons”.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him;** If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.**

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They **were made free **from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. **But if they return to evil **things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But **he who endures **to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But **he who endures **to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

John 15:4-6 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”

1 Chronicles 28:9 "If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever".

 

[nbtb1348]

Good idea:

Hebrews 3:12-14 “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ **if **we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.”

1 Timothy 1:19 “Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked”.

Hebrews 2:1 “Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard,** lest we drift away**”.

Romans 8:13 “For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but** if** by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live”.

1 Timothy 4:1 “But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times **some will fall away **from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons”.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him;** If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.**

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They **were made free **from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. **But if they return to evil **things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But **he who endures **to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But **he who endures **to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

John 15:4-6 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”

1 Chronicles 28:9 "If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you leave Him, He will cast you off forever".

I won’t repeat what I already wrote on most of those verses. You must harmonize all of Scripture. I don’t believe you have discovered grace yet.

What you don’t get is that when God saves a person in a moment of time, He planned it from all eternity past. At least 30 things happen to that person the moment he or she is saved, including the death of the old man, the fusing of his spirit with His Spirit, and this is no shaky little last minute, tentative thing God does. It is HUGE and it is forever. Maybe you need to ask yourself if at the point your trace your new birth back to, something HUGE happened to you? Or did you just get wet and join a church? I’m dead serious. Could be the best thing you ever do–asking that question.

You serve a God that kicks his own flesh and blood out of family–disowns them. I serve one that would never do that, and doesn’t ever have to, because of what Jesus did.

"My sheep)hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."-John 10

Col 2–
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions."

It’s why Paul says to those of us who have been saved, "***15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” ***

If I lived by your flawed system I would be living more in a spirit of fear than one of adoption. This will change your life and give you victory over those habits.

 

[dianaiad]

One cannot just assume that Faith is always the precursor of good works.

What about those who started doing something good and found or received the gift of Faith after doing good later on?
Do you exclude that circumstance? What basis from Scripture do you exclude that?

Oh, that’s one of the best questions/way to put this I’ve seen in awhile.

I have often been told that people who do ‘good works’ but are not ‘saved’ are actually going to hell BECAUSE they are doing good works in some bid to earn their way to heaven–and perhaps there are some of those. I don’t know any, but…

There are plenty of people who do ‘good works’ simply because those works need doing; they help people to help people, not to earn brownie points. Something tells me that these folks are more likely to have their works rewarded…perhaps by being given that confirmation of belief that turns their works into acts of faith as well as acts of charity.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

"My sheep)hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish

 

[catholic1seeks]

While I would quibble with what the Pope says about Luther in the part I underlined, the rest of this statement I completely agree with. He is right, when we discuss this issue without the polemics of the past, without the misunderstandings and errors of the past, we come pretty close to complete agreement.

Jon

That’s not a document from the Magisterium or anything written by the pope.

It’s an article on www.catholiceducation.com

 

[JonNC]

Exactly so it is faith and works(acts) that makes true life saving faith

The issue usually becomes the difference in our expressing the importance of works, and when does it come into play. Even the Lutheran confessions tell us of the necessity of good works, but cautions not to “mix” justification and sanctification. My understanding of Catholic expression is more of a blending of justification and sanctification. In the end, however, we seem to come to the same place, as the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification states:

15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

Jon

 

[Chancellare]

Oh, that’s one of the best questions/way to put this I’ve seen in awhile.

I have often been told that people who do ‘good works’ but are not ‘saved’ are actually going to hell BECAUSE they are doing good works in some bid to earn their way to heaven–and perhaps there are some of those. I don’t know any, but…

There are plenty of people who do ‘good works’ simply because those works need doing; they help people to help people, not to earn brownie points. Something tells me that these folks are more likely to have their works rewarded…perhaps by being given that confirmation of belief that turns their works into acts of faith as well as acts of charity.

If I may add:

This Sunday’s First reading reminds us of this reality.
The first reading was the story of Saul’s conversion to Paul, from persecutor to Apostle.
First stage:Gets blinded by God on his way to Damascus. He asks :What are you asking me to do, Sir? God tells him to go to Damascus and wait for further instructions.
Second stage: Paul gets cured by Ananias and regains his sight.
Third stage: Gets baptized.
Fourth stage: But then it took him 3 years of studying and praying to be able to start his ministry to all Gentiles.
Contrast this with Judas:
Stage 1: Becomes one of the 12 Apostles.
Stage 2: Assumes the position of treasurer, one that can only be given to a very trusted and competent individual.
Stage 3: Betrays Jesus.
Stage 4: Commits suicide.
Both encountered Jesus and had faith at the start but one found salvation while the other hell.
This shows that salvation does not flow automatically from having Faith but by working it out to the end.

 

[guanophore]

If you study the doctrine of grace you will see that works confirm that our faith is real, that it is the genuine article.

That depends upon whose “doctrine” you study. What we received from the Apostles is that our works “perfect” our faith. They complete, and that is why it is not “faith alone” but faith working through love. However, I agree that the works do confirm that our faith is authentic. They are the fruit of the ‘good tree’.

But it is the grace of God, through faith, that produces genuine works.

It is amazing that you can apply this principle to yourself, but when Catholics tell you this, you somehow seem to see it as a “works based salvation” or “legalism”. Catholics do not separate the grace that saves through faith, and the grace that works through us to produce works of righteousness. Both are the result of grace.

I serve God and have surrendered my life to Him, not in order to get to heaven, but rather out of gratitude for the fact that he has saved me forever out of His mercy and grace. Until he dealt with my sin through the cross, I could never serve him freely. Now I can.

God wants us engaged in good works. But the issue is, What is the source of those works. Look at what Paul writes in Romans 3 and 4:

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law…But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

    “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,

  And whose sins are covered;

     Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

There are so many verses in the NT that describe this. “Whosoever will call upon the name of the Lord WILL be saved”

Yes, but it is not calling by itself, as He also says “many will say to me Lord, Lord”. It is those who do His will that are saved. We cannot do HIs will without the grace that saves us through faith, but once we have received it, that grace enables us to obedience.

**“For by grace you have been **saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.”–Eph 2:8,9

I always wonder why v. 10 is left out.

The Apostle does not separate saving faith from works of righteousness.

*“That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”–*Rom 10:9

Yet we are also taught that making verbal confessions is not, in itself, sufficient. One must live out the confession of the lips.

*"37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”–*Acts 2:37,38

This is one of the reasons we recognize baptism as a conduit of God’s grace. In baptism we believe that we are sealed with the gift of the HS, and are cleansed of our sins.

How many times does it have to be stated in Scripture? We are saved by grace through faith. If the faith is real, works will follow. If they don’t follow, it wasn’t genuine faith.

For some reason you do not recognize that these verses were written by, for , and about Catholics.

But the works don’t save or keep you saved.

Well, we read it differently, don’t we?

They are simply fruit of the new life Christ places inside the person who TRULY repents and believes on the Christ of the cross and the resurrection!

I think it is shallow to say “simply fruit”. Have you forgotten what happened to the fig tree that did not bear fruit?

Branches can be cut off, and thrown into the fire.

 

[guanophore]

Exactly so it is faith and works(acts) that makes true life saving faith

Neither, actually, we are saved by grace, not faith, or works. Faith, working through love, is how we apprehend the grace that saves.

 

[nbtb1348]

Who are the Sheep? Let’s see:

 

[guanophore]

You serve a God that kicks his own flesh and blood out of family–disowns them.

This is a false witness. The Catholic Church teaches that nothing can separate us from the love of God. We can only leave Him by willful rebellion, as the prodigal son did. Yet, even if we do spurn Him and walk away, He is always waiting for us to come back, and will throw His arms around us when we do.

"My sheep)hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."-John 10

There is a big difference between getting snatched out, and biting the hand, and jumping out if it.
nbtb1348;4716467:

Col 2–
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions."

It’s why Paul says to those of us who have been saved, "***15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” ***

Catholics believe this happens in baptism.

If I lived by your flawed system I would be living more in a spirit of fear than one of adoption. This will change your life and give you victory over those habits.

Yes, clearly your understanding of the Apostolic faith is severely flawed, and it is good that you do not live by these gross misundertandings.

Perhaps you will be willing to consider learning what the church truly teaches, so you can give up the bad habit of bearing false witness?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES;4717261:

See you on the judgement day. I’ll be one of the great number huddled under my Shepherd’s arm. Hope you’re deeds are good enough to get you in. By the way…did you ever wonder how good they have to be? Just a thought.

This reminds me of a Bishop Fulton Sheen joke which I’m sure you’ll appreciate.

A heckler was bothering the bishop one day The Hecker said, Father, how can you possible believe that Jonah survived in the belly of a fish? How could he do that?

Sheen said, “When I get to heaven, I’ll ask him.”

The Heckler said, " What if he isn’t in heaven?"

Sheen said, “Then you ask him.”