Is it by "Faith Alone"?

[Bill_Pick]

Salvation is by grace through faith, but is it through faith alone? If it is by faith alone then we don’t need the Church, we don’t need the Sacraments, good works would be optional, and in short we wouldn’t need a great deal of things that our Lord Jesus Christ gave to us - and for what reason, was at all vanity?

I’m going to play the devil’s advocate and put forth a Scripture that I thinks comes the closest to teach that it is by faith alone.

A fundamentalist protestant, I’m sure, would like to interpret this to mean that salvation is “by faith from first to last”, or in other words by faith alone. But this is not what it’s talking about. This was the transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, it’s merely pointing out that the one primary commonality between Old Testament saints and New Testament saints is not the types of rituals that were practiced but their faith in God.

james 2;24 james 2;26

 

[SirKnight2007]

You could say that a person enters Heaven by “Faith Alone,” but I wouldn’t agree with the Calvinist version of this belief. Calvinists believe that you could do anything you want and still go to heaven so long as you believe in God.

I have a problem with this because if you truly believe something you will act upon that belief. So to have true faith in God you must act upon His principles and Biblical teachings.

If you need scripture to back this up take a look at James. There are alot of Bible verses on how “faith without works is dead.”

 

[guanophore]

You could say that a person enters Heaven by “Faith Alone,” but I wouldn’t agree with the Calvinist version of this belief. Calvinists believe that you could do anything you want and still go to heaven so long as you believe in God.

I have a problem with this because if you truly believe something you will act upon that belief. So to have true faith in God you must act upon His principles and Biblical teachings.

If you need scripture to back this up take a look at James. There are alot of Bible verses on how “faith without works is dead.”

Calvin did believe that a Christian should act in accordance with their faith, though. He would say that people who do not persist into a sanctified life were not ever saved in the first place.

 

[nbtb1348]

Calvin did believe that a Christian should act in accordance with their faith, though. He would say that people who do not persist into a sanctified life were not ever saved in the first place.

I feel so sorry for you guys, and I don’t say that to hit you. I just do. You continue to ignore what we say about works, and I honestly doubt you are trusting in the finished work of the cross for your salvation. You are no better than those who troubled the Galatian Christians. By the way, you still didn’t tell me how good you think you’ll have to be to make it to heaven. You must have a tremendous amount of peace knowing you could be driving down the road, see a Lexus you covet (mortal sin, of course), get in an accident and go straight to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. What a pathetic system and what a pathetic idea of a Father.

 

[diggingdeeper]

I feel so sorry for you guys, and I don’t say that to hit you. I just do. You continue to ignore what we say about works, and I honestly doubt you are trusting in the finished work of the cross for your salvation. You are no better than those who troubled the Galatian Christians. By the way, you still didn’t tell me how good you think you’ll have to be to make it to heaven. You must have a tremendous amount of peace knowing you could be driving down the road, see a Lexus you covet (mortal sin, of course), get in an accident and go straight to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. What a pathetic system and what a pathetic idea of a Father.

You’re a little rough on him there. But you are completely correct about the dangers of missing heaven. In the Christian system, Christ paid for every sin when He died. The Bible says that if He was willing to risk His Son on the cross while we were still his enemies, then once we receive Him, He gives us “all things” Romans 5 I think)

 

[guanophore]

I feel so sorry for you guys, and I don’t say that to hit you. I just do.

I guess if that helps your relationship with God, that is not so bad.
God can even use confused or misdirected emotions to bring people closer to Himself.

You continue to ignore what we say about works,

I dont’ think so. I think I read what you had to say, and I was clear that you were taking the scripture out of context. Clearly you confuse the Mosaic “works of the Law” references in scripture with the works of righteousness that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. One is based in the flesh, the other in grace.

and I honestly doubt you are trusting in the finished work of the cross for your salvation.

There is nothing wrong with an honest doubt. However, judging the heart of another human being, especially over an internet forum, is a dangerous business.

Jesus finished His work on the cross, but our work is not finished. Jesus made it clear that He expected us to take up our cross, and follow Him.

You are no better than those who troubled the Galatian Christians.

this is the most demeaning insult I have had today. Thanks so much.

By the way, you still didn't tell me how good you think you'll have to be to make it to heaven.

We must be perfect to enter heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. Jesus was clear that we must be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect.

 You must have a tremendous amount of peace knowing you could be driving down the road, see a Lexus you covet (mortal sin, of course), get in an accident and go straight to hell.  Do not pass go, do not collect $200.  What a pathetic system and what a pathetic idea of a Father.

I agree, such a “system” would be pathetic. However, it is only a pathetic creation of your own imagination. This has no resemblance to what the Church teaches. In order for a sin to be mortal, it must involve grave matter. One must freely choose to engage in the sin, and one must understand that it is grave, and willfully engage in the sin. A passing car that attracts one’s attention hardly qualifies.

A covetous heart is a sign that one is not right with God. Whether one covets a car, or someone else’s wife, or money or drugs, or power or whatever it may be, this reflects the disposition of a person who is not in right relationship with God.

 

[JohnVIII]

I feel so sorry for you guys, and I don’t say that to hit you. I just do. You continue to ignore what we say about works, and I honestly doubt you are trusting in the finished work of the cross for your salvation. You are no better than those who troubled the Galatian Christians. By the way, you still didn’t tell me how good you think you’ll have to be to make it to heaven. You must have a tremendous amount of peace knowing you could be driving down the road, see a Lexus you covet (mortal sin, of course), get in an accident and go straight to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. What a pathetic system and what a pathetic idea of a Father.

Please make it clear. You say if we say it’s not by grace thru faith “alone” (excluding love or hope) then we could not possibly truly believe it is by grace, right? If we sin and die there is no hope because the hope that comes by the grace of God is blocked if we believe that grace comes also thru love and thru hope as well as thru faith. You say love and hope are “works” that make those who seek grace thru them “legalists” who seek salvation by works. You are a legalist as well! Your “work” is “faith”. The scripture says:

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29)

You must have a tremendous amount of peace knowing you could be driving down the road, have a doubt in you mind, get in an accident and go straight to hell!

Peter was “the first among equals”. The Rock of his Faith is the one true Faith! Peter is not “alone”, but together with James and John they represented Faith, Hope, and Love. Peter=Faith, James=Hope, and John=Love. Think about it.

 

[elvisman]

I feel so sorry for you guys, and I don’t say that to hit you. I just do. You continue to ignore what we say about works, and I honestly doubt you are trusting in the finished work of the cross for your salvation. You are no better than those who troubled the Galatian Christians. By the way, you still didn’t tell me how good you think you’ll have to be to make it to heaven. You must have a tremendous amount of peace knowing you could be driving down the road, see a Lexus you covet (mortal sin, of course), get in an accident and go straight to hell. Do not pass go, do not collect $200. What a pathetic system and what a pathetic idea of a Father.

Perhaps if you read (and understood) 1 Cor. 13, you would understand what the obedience of faith is spoken of in Romans 1:5 and 16:26.

What does Paul say about faith hope and love? He says, "So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love."

**I guess nobody **ever taught you that. Too bad . . .

 

[nbtb1348]

I guess if that helps your relationship with God, that is not so bad.
God can even use confused or misdirected emotions to bring people closer to Himself.

I dont’ think so. I think I read what you had to say, and I was clear that you were taking the scripture out of context. Clearly you confuse the Mosaic “works of the Law” references in scripture with the works of righteousness that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. One is based in the flesh, the other in grace.

There is nothing wrong with an honest doubt. However, judging the heart of another human being, especially over an internet forum, is a dangerous business.

Jesus finished His work on the cross, but our work is not finished. Jesus made it clear that He expected us to take up our cross, and follow Him.

this is the most demeaning insult I have had today. Thanks so much.

We must be perfect to enter heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. Jesus was clear that we must be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect.

I agree, such a “system” would be pathetic. However, it is only a pathetic creation of your own imagination. This has no resemblance to what the Church teaches. In order for a sin to be mortal, it must involve grave matter. One must freely choose to engage in the sin, and one must understand that it is grave, and willfully engage in the sin. A passing car that attracts one’s attention hardly qualifies.

A covetous heart is a sign that one is not right with God. Whether one covets a car, or someone else’s wife, or money or drugs, or power or whatever it may be, this reflects the disposition of a person who is not in right relationship with God.

So then you could never go to hell for coveting?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

So then you could never go to hell for coveting?

Of course you could.

 

[nbtb1348]

Please make it clear. You say if we say it’s not by grace thru faith “alone” (excluding love or hope) then we could not possibly truly believe it is by grace, right? If we sin and die there is no hope because the hope that comes by the grace of God is blocked if we believe that grace comes also thru love and thru hope as well as thru faith. You say love and hope are “works” that make those who seek grace thru them “legalists” who seek salvation by works. You are a legalist as well! Your “work” is “faith”. The scripture says:

Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” (John 6:29)

You must have a tremendous amount of peace knowing you could be driving down the road, have a doubt in you mind, get in an accident and go straight to hell!

Peter was “the first among equals”. The Rock of his Faith is the one true Faith! Peter is not “alone”, but together with James and John they represented Faith, Hope, and Love. Peter=Faith, James=Hope, and John=Love. Think about it.

I don’t say that at all. But I am continually amazed at how when we clarify that we believe it is faith alone that saves and gives us permanent entry into God’s wonderful family, and that works will follow as a RESULT of that salvation, not as a prerequisite to KEEP it, you twist it to say that we don’t believe that works are important. It is so simple, but I guess it shows why the Holy Spirit is necessary to see the true nature of grace. God planned to save me a billion years ago and place me in a special place in his Son’s body. Nothing changes that my friend. Nothing. And I am forever grateful for that and respond in a life of love toward Him. YOU think that if God holds the threat of losing my salvation over my head, THAT will make sure I really produce works. And IF that is what you believe, then THAT, my friend, shows all of us you understand neither grace nor the principle of Law.

 

[nbtb1348]

Of course you could.

A Christian can??

 

[nbtb1348]

I guess if that helps your relationship with God, that is not so bad.
God can even use confused or misdirected emotions to bring people closer to Himself.

I dont’ think so. I think I read what you had to say, and I was clear that you were taking the scripture out of context. Clearly you confuse the Mosaic “works of the Law” references in scripture with the works of righteousness that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. One is based in the flesh, the other in grace.

There is nothing wrong with an honest doubt. However, judging the heart of another human being, especially over an internet forum, is a dangerous business.

Jesus finished His work on the cross, but our work is not finished. Jesus made it clear that He expected us to take up our cross, and follow Him.

this is the most demeaning insult I have had today. Thanks so much.

We must be perfect to enter heaven. Nothing unclean can enter heaven. Jesus was clear that we must be perfect as our heavenly father is perfect.

I agree, such a “system” would be pathetic. However, it is only a pathetic creation of your own imagination. This has no resemblance to what the Church teaches. In order for a sin to be mortal, it must involve grave matter. One must freely choose to engage in the sin, and one must understand that it is grave, and willfully engage in the sin. A passing car that attracts one’s attention hardly qualifies.

A covetous heart is a sign that one is not right with God. Whether one covets a car, or someone else’s wife, or money or drugs, or power or whatever it may be, this reflects the disposition of a person who is not in right relationship with God.

I am continually amazed at how when we clarify that we believe it is faith alone that saves and gives us permanent entry into God’s wonderful family, and that works will follow as a RESULT of that salvation, not as a prerequisite to KEEP it, you twist it to say that we don’t believe that works are important. It is so simple, but I guess it shows why the Holy Spirit is necessary to see the true nature of grace. God planned to save me a billion years ago and place me in a special place in his Son’s body. Nothing changes that my friend. Nothing. And I am forever grateful for that and respond in a life of love toward Him. YOU think that if God holds the threat of losing my salvation over my head, THAT will make sure I really produce works. And IF that is what you believe, then THAT, my friend, shows all of us you understand neither grace nor the principle of Law.

 

[elvisman]

I am continually amazed at how when we clarify that we believe it is faith alone that saves and gives us permanent entry into God’s wonderful family, and that works will follow as a RESULT of that salvation, not as a prerequisite to KEEP it, you twist it to say that we don’t believe that works are important. It is so simple, but I guess it shows why the Holy Spirit is necessary to see the true nature of grace. God planned to save me a billion years ago and place me in a special place in his Son’s body. Nothing changes that my friend. Nothing. And I am forever grateful for that and respond in a life of love toward Him. YOU think that if God holds the threat of losing my salvation over my head, THAT will make sure I really produce works. And IF that is what you believe, then THAT, my friend, shows all of us you understand neither grace nor the principle of Law.

And you don’t understand what true faith is because you fail understand (or refuse to) what obedience of that faith is (even though you’ve been shown the verses ad nauseum Romans 1:5 and 16:26). **
**
You also fail to grasp the idea that “only faith working through love” (Galations 5:6) is a saving faith. Even the demons believe (Mark 1:23-24) that Jesus is the Christ - but it won’t save them.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

A Christian can??

Is coveting a sin of the will?

Of course:

John 15
10**If **you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

Hebrews 2:1 “Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away”.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

 

[nbtb1348]

And you don’t understand what true faith is because you fail understand (or refuse to) what obedience of that faith is (even though you’ve been shown the verses ad nauseum Romans 1:5 and 16:26).
**
You also fail to grasp the idea that “only faith working through love**” (Galations 5:6) is a saving faith. Even the demons believe (Mark 1:23-24) that Jesus is the Christ - but it won’t save them.

I agree with everyone of those verses and have said so elsewhere. I’m not being sarcastic here, but do you suffer from A.D.D.? You reveal that you either can’t focus or else have no real argument when you answer GRACE with an empty accusation about us not believing in the importance of works of love. If you understand Romans 8:8, you know that there are tons of good works done every day by religious people that “CANNOT PLEASE GOD”. Because they are done by people who, though religious, though church members, though they may know Bible verses, HAVE NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN! THEY ARE STILL “IN THE FLESH”.

 

[nbtb1348]

Is coveting a sin of the will?

Of course:

John 15
10**If **you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

Hebrews 2:1 “Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away”.

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

How really sad this “other gospel” is–God hasn’t even decided if He is going to let you be in His family or not! He gets sick of you about every few minutes or so. By the way, you guys have a tendency to think primarily of sins of commission! Love is the most important thing, and how far short do you fall of loving the guys that live in your neighborhood as much as you love yourself?? You’re going to hell for that my friend. That’s MUCH worse than lusting or lying! You’re dead meat…as long as you hold to the nonbiblical notion that salvation is maintained by works. It is another gospel, and I wouldn’t brag that you got your worst attack with that accusation. I would be repenting if I were you and meditating on ALL those verses that I will not cast at your feet again. I know I sound harsh, my friend. I get very agitated when people lead others astray. So did Jesus, and so did Paul and Peter.

 

[guanophore]

So then you could never go to hell for coveting?

Without a doubt, I think that there are many inhabitants thereof who have done so.

I fear for a lot of souls who have made out like bandits on wall street, robbing the working people of their retirement.

 

[guanophore]

How really sad this “other gospel” is–God hasn’t even decided if He is going to let you be in His family or not!

No, nb. Catholics believe that we are adopted into the family of God at baptism. However, we are not adopted as slaves, but sons. Slaves can be dragged back against their will, but sons can walk away by their own free choice.

He gets sick of you about every few minutes or so.

This may certainly be a true statement. Just like any parent can get disgusted with their children when they are misbehaving. However his disappointment over our misbehavior does not make us any less His sons and daughters.

By the way, you guys have a tendency to think primarily of sins of commission! Love is the most important thing, and how far short do you fall of loving the guys that live in your neighborhood as much as you love yourself?? You’re going to hell for that my friend.

That depends, nb. If we are constantly in the process of praying that Christ will be formed in us, and that our hearts might shed abroad His love for others, then we are on the straight and narrow road. If we think we can hate our neighbor and be saved, then you are right, we are on the road to hell.

That’s MUCH worse than lusting or lying! You’re dead meat…as long as you hold to the nonbiblical notion that salvation is maintained by works.

Our “notions” of salvation are not derived from scripture separated by 1500 years from the Apostles. Our understanding of salvation comes from Christ, and the Apostles were teaching it to Catholics before a word of the NT was ever written.

It is another gospel, and I wouldn’t brag that you got your worst attack with that accusation. I would be repenting if I were you and meditating on ALL those verses that I will not cast at your feet again.

I think it is a bit presumptuous for you to come to a Catholic website and take it upon yourself to tell Catholics how they should practice their faith.

I know I sound harsh, my friend. I get very agitated when people lead others astray.

If you believe this about the Catholic faith, one has to wonder why you are on a Catholic discussion forum.

The purpose of CAF is to answer sincere questions about the Catholic faith, not to give you a venue to evangelize people into “bible christians”.

 

[nbtb1348]

No, nb. Catholics believe that we are adopted into the family of God at baptism. However, we are not adopted as slaves, but sons. Slaves can be dragged back against their will, but sons can walk away by their own free choice.

This may certainly be a true statement. Just like any parent can get disgusted with their children when they are misbehaving. However his disappointment over our misbehavior does not make us any less His sons and daughters.

That depends, nb. If we are constantly in the process of praying that Christ will be formed in us, and that our hearts might shed abroad His love for others, then we are on the straight and narrow road. If we think we can hate our neighbor and be saved, then you are right, we are on the road to hell.

Our “notions” of salvation are not derived from scripture separated by 1500 years from the Apostles. Our understanding of salvation comes from Christ, and the Apostles were teaching it to Catholics before a word of the NT was ever written.

I think it is a bit presumptuous for you to come to a Catholic website and take it upon yourself to tell Catholics how they should practice their faith.

If you believe this about the Catholic faith, one has to wonder why you are on a Catholic discussion forum.

The purpose of CAF is to answer sincere questions about the Catholic faith, not to give you a venue to evangelize people into “bible christians”.

Well I will never disown ANY of my children, no matter what they do. I would grieve over certain things and not enable certain things, but they will always be my children, because I love them. And the God of the Bible is FAR MORE LOVING AND GRACE-PROVIDING than I am! It is simply an inferior gospel…another gospel.

We are discussing Scripture and the sensible interpretation of the same. That is a very profitable excercise, with eternal ramifications.