Is it by "Faith Alone"?

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I agree with everyone of those verses and have said so elsewhere. I’m not being sarcastic here, but do you suffer from A.D.D.? You reveal that you either can’t focus or else have no real argument when you answer GRACE with an empty accusation about us not believing in the importance of works of love. If you understand Romans 8:8, you know that there are tons of good works done every day by religious people that “CANNOT PLEASE GOD”. Because they are done by people who, though religious, though church members, though they may know Bible verses, HAVE NEVER BEEN BORN AGAIN! THEY ARE STILL “IN THE FLESH”.
**You’re not being sarcastic? Ummmm . . . right. Most of your posts are filled with sarcasm and insults - as in the use of the term “Romanists” for which you have yet to apologize. **
That shows a lot of Christian charity and spiritual maturity . . . NOT!

Anyway, back to the topic.
Your adherence to OSAS
is not only silly, it’s sad because it’s not supported by scripture - when taken in context (something you can’t seem to grasp).

If you understand of what gives life, Jesus said:
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." John 6:53
That might just disqualify you because of a lack of faith.
What is your interpretation of this passage? I can’t wait to hear.

You have to have faith in everything
he taught. You have to believe everything the Holy Spirit revealed to his Church. John 16:13-15 Because, remember what Jesus said about the confusion, division and rancor that Protestantism has wrought:

"So by their fruits you will know them. ***
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’." John 7:20-23
*
 
**You’re not **being sarcastic? Ummmm . . . right. Most of your posts are filled with sarcasm and insults - as in the use of the term “Romanists” for which you have yet to apologize.
That shows a lot of Christian charity and spiritual maturity . . . NOT!

Anyway, back to the topic.
Your adherence to OSAS
is not only silly, it’s sad because it’s not supported by scripture - when taken in context (something you can’t seem to grasp).

If you understand of what gives life, Jesus said:
"Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you." John 6:53
That might just disqualify you because of a lack of faith.
What is your interpretation of this passage? I can’t wait to hear.

You have to have faith in everything he taught. You have to believe everything the Holy Spirit revealed to his Church. John 16:13-15 Because, remember what Jesus said about the confusion, division and rancor that Protestantism has wrought:

"So by their fruits you will know them. ***
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’." John 7:20-23
*
I did apologize for using the word ‘Romanist’. I do it again now.

I believe that in the John 6 passage Jesus is focusing on the same thing He was focusing on when He told the woman at the well that He would give her water such that she would never thirst again. He is all about pointing people to the salvation He would be providing at the cross. You eat and you drink to live. Period. Eating His flesh and drinking His blood means appropriating the salvation He provided when He allowed his body to be broken and his blood to be shed on the cross. The key is the same key He gave when He answered the question, *“What must we do to work the works of God.” * Do you remember that verse, my friend? Do you? It’s in the same chapter. How did Jesus respond when He was tossed that pitch–What do we do to work the works of God? It is the same answer as the answer to the question of what did Jesus mean there in John 6. Sadly, I don’t think you’ve ever heard it. Here it is "Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

When we observe the Lord’s Supper, we proclaim the message of the cross. Paul says that when you do it “You do show the Lord’s death until He comes”
 
Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”
I hope you realize that this verse is an anchor for many universalists…that is, they believe that unless a person has received “the knowledge of the truth” that they are covered by the “sacrifce for sins” provided by Jesus on the cross. Only when someone has this knowledge revealed and rejects it are they then in danger “of judgment and fiery indignation” if they sin (which of course everyone will).
 
Since we are talking about works and salvation, I’d be interested in comments about this passage from St. Paul (the Apostle, not the city. 🙂 )

1 Corinthians 3

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
 
Ephesians 2:8-10 says salvation is by grace through faith. Then is says it’s not of works. Do you close your eyes at this point? I would advise against it.

Anyway, right there in verse 10 it says we are created in Christ Jesus “unto good works,” “to do good works,” “for good works,” something like that. Do you understand how we are not saved “by works” yet are still saved “unto works?” Works that are pre-ordained, at that. Yeah, get your predestination on. But that’s a whole different topic.

Here’s something you might want to play with. Choose the one you think is best.
  1. The first step of belief leads to incomplete salvation, so sanctification is a process that grants more salvation of the same kind. This requires admitting that Jesus’ death was not enough. Also that you are only partially saved. Both a bit awkward.
  1. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation. You are not partially saved, you are completely saved. 100%. The process of sanctification does not make you any more saved. If you believe you can lose your salvation, works maintain salvation, cause you to persevere, and prevent you from losing it. Whether you believe in loss of salvation or not, works are evidence of salvation. But you do not gain any more salvation, because you were fully and completely saved to begin with.
  1. The first step of belief leads to complete and total salvation of one kind, and then the process of sanctification leads to a salvation of a different kind. So you have 100% of Salvation A, but you also need to get some Salvation B. Then after you die, you get Salvation C.
Which one do you agree with?
 
Well I will never disown ANY of my children, no matter what they do.
Of course not! No body said anything about disowing them! God loves them as His own, even as He watches them willfully march through the gates of hell.

Remember the young man who came to Him asking about eternal life?

Mark 10:20-22
21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Jesus did not go running after him, shouting 'wait, wait". He loved him, but He let him walk away.
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I would grieve over certain things and not enable certain things, but they will always be my children, because I love them.  And the God of the Bible is FAR MORE LOVING AND GRACE-PROVIDING than I am!  It is simply an inferior gospel....another gospel.
What you have said about loving His children IS the gospel, and it is not inferior. He so loved the world, that He gave His only Son to die on the cross to save it. Yet, not all those He loves are saved, are they?
We are discussing Scripture and the sensible interpretation of the same. That is a very profitable excercise, with eternal ramifications.
Catholics discuss scripture as it was meant to be interpreted, in the light of the Apostolic Teaching.
 
I did apologize for using the word ‘Romanist’. I do it again now.
I believe that in the John 6 passage Jesus is focusing on the same thing He was focusing on when He told the woman at the well that He would give her water such that she would never thirst again. He is all about pointing people to the salvation He would be providing at the cross. You eat and you drink to live. Period. Eating His flesh and drinking His blood means appropriating the salvation He provided when He allowed his body to be broken and his blood to be shed on the cross. The key is the same key He gave when He answered the question, *“What must we do to work the works of God.” *Do you remember that verse, my friend? Do you? It’s in the same chapter. How did Jesus respond when He was tossed that pitch–What do we do to work the works of God? It is the same answer as the answer to the question of what did Jesus mean there in John 6. Sadly, I don’t think you’ve ever heard it. Here it is "Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”
When we observe the Lord’s Supper, we proclaim the message of the cross. Paul says that when you do it “You do show the Lord’s death until He comes”
If you apologized and I missed it – my mistake.
As for the Bread of Life discourse (John 6:31-71) – you’re way off. I don’t see how you or anybody else can’t see the severity of these passages and assume that Jesus is speaking metaphorically.

This was never a belief of the historic Christian Church for 1500 years, then came the Protestant revolt. They knew better than the church Fathers – some of whom KNEW the Apostle John (Ignatius, Polycarp).

What does, “believe” mean to you? Unfortunately, it doesn’t appear that it means what Jesus wanted you to understand it meant. If it did - the “Lord’s Supper” would mean much more to you than you could possibly imagine.
You have been blinded by ignorance about the Church for so long and been taught so many falsehoods that it has become a real anti-Catholic sentiment.

Believing in Jesus means that you TRULY believe EVERYTHING he said. This means that you must DO the will of the Father and endure to the end (Matt. 7:21, 24:13).

In John 6:66 the followers that couldn’t handle what Jesus was saying left and “returned to the former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”

**They just didn’t have enough faith to take Jesus’ word at face value and they left. This reminds me so much of many Protestants today with their cafeteria Christianity. “I’ll believe this, but NOT that. That’s just too weird!”

What does Jesus ask his Apostles in the next verse? I’ll tell you because I don’t think you’ve read it:
Jesus then said to the Twelve,
** "Do you also want to leave?"**
**What he didn’t say was, “Let me explain.” He said what he said and he meant what he meant. **
On the contrary, earlier, in verse 62, he asks his disciples, "Does this shock you?”

Faith
**, my angry friend is all-encompassing. It’s everything – not just a “simple” belief. That’s what Jesus was talking about when he said that we must do the will of his Father in heaven.**

If you pick apart the scriptures – as you’ve done - and take them out of context, you come up with a bunch of bizarre, unfounded interpretations. The result is the thousands of bickering “denominations” you have today.

You see – when you take the Scriptures in CONTEXT, your way just doesn’t work.
 
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It is the same answer as the answer to the question of what did Jesus mean there in John 6.  **Sadly, I don't think you've ever heard it. ** Here it is Jesus answered and said to them,"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
This is an example of the condescending tone that was mentioned.
When we observe the Lord’s Supper, we proclaim the message of the cross. Paul says that when you do it “You do show the Lord’s death until He comes”
Catholics do this every day at Mass. Perhaps you would be willing to explore that before you make judgements to the contrary.

You are making yourself look very petty.
 
Of course not! No body said anything about disowing them! God loves them as His own, even as He watches them willfully march through the gates of hell.

Remember the young man who came to Him asking about eternal life?

Mark 10:20-22
21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.” 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions.

Jesus did not go running after him, shouting 'wait, wait". He loved him, but He let him walk away.

What you have said about loving His children IS the gospel, and it is not inferior. He so loved the world, that He gave His only Son to die on the cross to save it. Yet, not all those He loves are saved, are they?

Catholics discuss scripture as it was meant to be interpreted, in the light of the Apostolic Teaching.
We’re not the least impressed with empty claims of special links to Apostolic light. We have the same Holy Spirit in us and the same Bible, and incredible sholarship. You’re wasting your time with those claims. It’s like Candians telling Americans that it is the Canadians who really know football. Ok, if you say so!

Your view of what God does to and for His children is disjointed. He planned from eternity that His children would reign with him forever. NONE of his children will be in hell. That is what you have been blinded to. Your father might do that, but the God of the universe won’t. Jesus said ALL of his sheep hear his voice and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish. But you are never going to get that until you humble yourself and examine what God means when He says, “For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, that no one (but Guano) should boast.” I am through discussing this with you.
 
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We're not the least impressed with empty claims of special links to Apostolic light.
And neither should you. The Apostolic succession was put in place by Christ for the benefit of the whole world. Personally , I find the way He built His church to be quiet impressive, but each to his own.
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We have the same Holy Spirit in us and the same Bible, and incredible sholarship.  You're wasting your time with those claims.
It is true, I may be wasting them on you, but that does not absolve me from the obligation. Jesus directed that the Apostles were to “teach all that I have commanded”. It would be a failure to leave out that portion that is not included in the Scripture.
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  It's like Candians telling Americans that it is the Canadians who really know football.  Ok, if you say so!
One has to wonder, why are you here on CAF? If you are not at all perturbed that the Catholic Church claims are true that this is the Church founded by Christ, and it has the fullness of the Truth, what might be your purpose here?
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Your view of what God does to and for His children is disjointed.  He planned from eternity that His children would reign with him forever.  NONE of his children will be in hell.
If you are content with your knowledge that you are not able to be in help, what is your goal?
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That is what you have been blinded to.  Your father might do that, but the God of the universe won't.
Are you implying that catholics are children of the devil?
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 Jesus said ALL of his sheep hear his voice and He gives them eternal life and they will never perish.
They do all hear His voice. Those who answer when He calls do inherit eternal life. However, the sheep need to keep hearing His voice and following it until the end, or they may, indeed, perish. If this were not the case, there would be no need for so many warnings in Scipture.
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But you are never going to get that until you humble yourself and examine what God means when He says, "For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves.  It is the gift of God, not of works, that no one (but Guano) should boast."  I am through discussing this with you.
I am mystified what it is that I have done or said that is “boasting”.

I receive these two verses, along with the one after it, that states we are created for works. The grace that saves is not separated from the grace that produces good works.
 
Ephesians 2:8-10 says salvation is by grace through faith. Then is says it’s not of works. Do you close your eyes at this point? I would advise against it.

Anyway, right there in verse 10 it says we are created in Christ Jesus “unto good works,” “to do good works,” “for good works,” something like that. Do you understand how we are not saved “by works” yet are still saved “unto works?” Works that are pre-ordained, at that. Yeah, get your predestination on. But that’s a whole different topic.

Here’s something you might want to play with. Choose the one you think is best.

Which one do you agree with?
Why can’t I find your beliefs in the writings of the early Christians, say the first 250 years? :confused:
 
I posted this in another thread a few months ago about this very issue…hope you don’t mind me re-posting it.

I’m about to attempt to say something profound rather than quoting Monty Python. I grew up in farm country, and not a day went by where there wasn’t a new squashed animal in the road. About once a week, someone would tag a deer; the deer would usually die and the car would be totaled, with the driver occasionally being seriously injured (sometimes fatally).

To me, our daily life as it relates to salvation is a lot like driving in the country at night. We follow the light so that it can illuminate the path. And once in a while, we’ll see a deer standing in the road. Now the question is: what to do? The options and attitudes are this:
  1. “I’m safe; I believe there is a deer in the road. The fact that I’m bearing down on it at 60 MPH and that I believe it’s there is all the assurance I need.”
  2. “I see and believe there is a deer in the road. I’m going to pray for that deer to move, but I’m not slowing down or changing course.”
  3. “I see and believe there is a deer n the road. I’m going to pray for the deer to move, and I’m also going to slow way down and do everything I can to avoid hitting it.”
  4. “Eat this, Bambi! I’m going to gas it up to 90!”
If I have a passenger with me and choose the first option, they’ll say, “Hey, there’s a deer in the road.” If I say, “I know, I see it” and then fail to slow down, the inevitable question will be, “So why don’t you act like you see it and avoid it?”

This is why it’s written that “Not all who call on me will be saved.” Believing all the right things and not acting like it is insane.
 
Faith initially justifies us, but good works done in grace perfect and complete our justification. Faith is a starting point, without which we can never hope to please God (Heb 11:6). It increases by the measure of our ‘obedience’ to the will of God (2 Cor 10:15). If this were not so, then Paul would have no reason to exhort us to examine our conscience for the sake of making sure that we are living up to our faith in our conduct ( 2 Cor 13:15). Good works done in grace are a cause, not an effect or demonstration, of our justification. Faith does not lead to works. The two are distinct from each other in their own right (Jas 2:18). Thus faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Both must act together in order for us to be fully justified before God (Jas 2:17, 26).

Even the failure on our part to do a good work in grace (a corporal work of mercy) is a sin of ommission that affects our justification. (Jas 4:17). Faith alone cannot save us, for our salvation comes from God before whom we are justified (Jas 2:14). And the absolute truth is that God will judge us according to our works (Rev 20: 12-13). If good works done in grace were merely an effect or demonstration of our faith through grace alone without any meritorious cooperation on our part, then there would be no justice in God’s final judgment of us. We should then be judged according to our faith as meted out to us as a free undeserved gift, a corollary of the false Protestant doctrine of Double Predestination.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”
Matthew 7, 21 {NAB}

According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that there is, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, but only as through fire.
1 Corinthians 3, 10-15 {NAB}


Paul is reminding all Christians that they will be judged for their works done in cooperation with God’s grace. He is referring to those who have avoided eternal damnation and been saved, but still await final judgment and further purification in order to be deemed worthy of entering the kingdom of heaven. The “loss” these Christians have incurred does not refer to their salvation per se but to the suffering associated with the consuming fire’s purification of them from the works they did which were not worthy of Christ, and of which they hadn’t fully repented by finally overcoming. These Christians who are to be ultimately saved will be held accountable for their works, which follow them after death to the Day of Judgment. Sinful works, unworthy of Christ, will be purged from them by a consuming fire, which does not destroy, so that they are cleansed and made fit in God’s judgment to enter heaven (Rev 21: 27).

If Christians haven’t ‘completely’ turned away from sin once and for all, notwithstanding a contrite heart, and renounced all attachment to sin and sinful desires, not allowing God’s grace to thoroughly sanctify them before death, then upon death they will not be worthy to enter heaven until they are purified and made clean by the consuming fire. The flames shall complete the purification that Christians failed to complete before death by their refusal to cooperate with God’s grace and rejection of it. Grace is a gift of the Holy Spirit; it is something freely given and freely received upon acceptance. Paul is speaking of the Church Penitent, the souls in Purgatory who must endure the consuming fire of purification before they can finally enter heaven. We shall be judged according to our works.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the ‘deeds’ of the body, you will live.
Romans 8, 13 {NAB}


Very few Christians, if any, have completely “put to death the deeds of the body”. “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,” Jesus tells us. But God in his mercy has not damned us for our sins provided we are sorry for them. Nonetheless, these sins which we may have committed and are struggling with render us unclean and unworthy of heaven. They have yet to be purged from us so that we are completely sanctified by the Spirit. There is no hope after death for those who have “lived according to the flesh” and have not even tried to “put to death the deeds of the body” with no thought given to the need for repentance.

“You are to be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Matthew 5, 48


PAX :harp:
 
Faith and Works
14(Y)What use is it, (Z)my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15(AA)If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16and one of you says to them, “(AB)Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17Even so (AC)faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18(AD)But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your (AE)faith without the works, and I will (AF)show you my faith (AG)by my works.”

19You believe that aGod is one (AI)You do well; (AJ)the demons also believe, and shudder.

20But are you willing to recognize, (AK)you foolish fellow, that (AL)faith without works is useless?

21(AM)Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22You see that (AN)faith was working with his works, and as a result of the (AO)works, faith was perfected;

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “(AP)AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called (AQ)the friend of God.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not (AR)Rahab the harlot also justified by works (AS)when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also (AT)faith without works is dead.

(James 2:14-26)
 
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