Is it easier to be Protestant or Catholic?

[Roy5]

Easier? Hm! No simple answer.

I know Protestants who are much stricter than most Catholics. They never drink, never did smoke, never swear, avoid lotteries and all forms of gambling, and don’t go to confession to have their sins forgive.

I recall as a child. Catholics thought their Protestants neighbors weren't very religious because they ate meat on Friday, didn't pray to Mary or the saints, didn't send their kids to parochial schools, etc. Protestants thought their Catholic neighbors weren't very religious because they drank, smoked, went to movies on Sunday, and swore like troopers.

You get the idea. 

A lot depends upon what kind of Catholic or Protestant you are.

 

[WTSherman]

It is easier to be Protestant.

As a Protestant you can make up the new religion depending on if they choose to follow!

I am Catholic and couldn’t care less

I have found that even when you seek isolation people go out of their way to reveal themselves as serpants.

 

[rinnie]

So I guess my questions are answered here. I have come to realize that in order to be part of any organization you have to follow the rules. Obviously in order to be an successful Roman Catholic you have to follow the rules of Roman Catholicism. If you don’t follow the rules you will never have the faith. And as far as being a Roman Catholic I don’t have the faith. I may know much about the religion, but that faith is not mine.

I am an Episcopalian after all. If I want to be in a church on Sundays that is where I belong. Thank you all for your prayers.

If you don’t follow the rules you will never have a Life!! Is this world not about rules and laws.

Is it not the same to say I don’t WANT to go the speed limit. Well okay because you will pay the price, A ticket. And if you continue to disobey you will lose your freedom to drive. And if you continue to break the law you wll be locked up in Prison.

Well in a strange way I agree with you. If you don’t follow the rules you will not have the faith that you need. Because as was said faith is given to you by a free gift of Grace.

But you must use that Grace from God or you will lose it also like you could lose your right to drive.

Jesus gave us the Sacraments to help us keep our faith and increase our faith. The more Grace that you use the more Grace that you are given. And the more that is given the more that your soul needs to be happy. When you feel you are at a place of total Grace with God in your heart you cannot imagine that feeling.

Not lotto could ever replace that security that you have with God. No drug could compare to that high. You are really what they call high on life. Because you know that noone will every hurt you or keep you down for long.

And you also learn that when you have hardships, challanges, etc that it is also a Grace from God. Like the Gospel in Church recently. The Apostle asked Lord was this man blind because of his parents sin. Jesus said no, some things are to show the power of God’s Grace.

Well you could imagine the grace of a blind man seeing for the first time. Seeing what we have seen from birth and probally forgot to thank God for. How many of you can see, hear, walk, talk, think, learn, etc. Did you ever think to thank God for that? Or did you think it was owed to you.

And as far as being Roman Catholic and not having the faith, it is not because you are not given the Grace to have that special faith, it is because you don’t want the faith of the CC. Like you yourself said you don’t want that Grace because it would require work from you to keep it. You don’t want to do the work.

Well Jesus gave you the free will to accept his grace or reject it. But remember don’t blame God because you used your free will to reject the teaching’s of his Church. But remember to thank him for the teaching’s that he revealed to you. Not many had that great Grace from him to know the truth. Many would have loved to have had that Grace that you rejected.

But I do have to wonder in my heart do you really know the Religion of the RCC. Because to know the truth as you claim you know, I could not imagine going anywhere else.

 

[rinnie]

Easier? Hm! No simple answer.

I know Protestants who are much stricter than most Catholics. They never drink, never did smoke, never swear, avoid lotteries and all forms of gambling, and don’t go to confession to have their sins forgive.

I recall as a child. Catholics thought their Protestants neighbors weren't very religious because they ate meat on Friday, didn't pray to Mary or the saints, didn't send their kids to parochial schools, etc. Protestants thought their Catholic neighbors weren't very religious because they drank, smoked, went to movies on Sunday, and swore like troopers.

You get the idea. 

A lot depends upon what kind of Catholic or Protestant you are.

I agree, and the first thought that comes to my mind is we should not judge anyone.

Let God be the Judge. You know the saying if you are busy confessing your own sins, you don’t have time to confess your neighbors.

Would it not have been better for the Protestant to admire the Catholic for giving up meat on Fridays for our Lord and working hard to spend his money on teaching his Children about Christ.

And would it not have been better for the Catholic’s to admire thier Protestant brothers and sisters for not swearing and abusing alcohol and smoking.

Maybe if they both spent more time in prayer for one another instead of judging oneanother this would be a better place.

But it all goes back to the word of God maybe that splinter should be removed before we worry about others.

But Roy I agree with you it is not easy to live your faith not matter what Religion you are. It takes alot of prayer and help and grace from God every single second of your life. But it is sure easy to get off track and take others with you.

I think it goes back to help your brother and sister no matter what faith they are. And go out of your way to make their life easier on their struggle to meet God. Because Christ said what so ever you do for the least of my brothers that you do unto me.

 

[Roy5]

I agree, and the first thought that comes to my mind is we should not judge anyone.

Let God be the Judge. You know the saying if you are busy confessing your own sins, you don’t have time to confess your neighbors.

Would it not have been better for the Protestant to admire the Catholic for giving up meat on Fridays for our Lord and working hard to spend his money on teaching his Children about Christ.

And would it not have been better for the Catholic’s to admire thier Protestant brothers and sisters for not swearing and abusing alcohol and smoking.

Maybe if they both spent more time in prayer for one another instead of judging oneanother this would be a better place.

But it all goes back to the word of God maybe that splinter should be removed before we worry about others.

But Roy I agree with you it is not easy to live your faith not matter what Religion you are. It takes alot of prayer and help and grace from God every single second of your life. But it is sure easy to get off track and take others with you.

I think it goes back to help your brother and sister no matter what faith they are. And go out of your way to make their life easier on their struggle to meet God. Because Christ said what so ever you do for the least of my brothers that you do unto me.

---

Yes, I agree. This is why I have trouble with the emphasis the CC places on correct doctrine. When the lawyer asked Jesus how to gain eternal life, Christ said nothing about this dogma or that. Instead, he told the parable of the Good Samaritan. And let us remember that the Samaritans were 'heretics' and even worse in the eyes of Hebrew society. Yet, Christ chose one of them to set an example for the rest of us.

 As I've noted from time to time, I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage. Over the years I have found it more and more difficult to accept traditional Catholicism because of its insistence upon doctrinal and liturgical conformity. I presume I have an independent streak which some would dismiss as egotism, but I guess I've concluded that God is merciful and certainly doesn't condemn anybody who seeks to live a good life but can't subscribe to all the rubrics laid down by the CC, or by any church.

 Frankly, I find it liberating to investigate and learn about and from different faiths. This old pre-Vatican notion that condemned everything but Catholicism didn't - in my view - reflect the mercy of God. Would he condemn us for using the brains he gave us to examine various faiths? That used to be the CC position. I am old enough to remember when it was a 'big sin' even to enter a Protestant church. How many times families were divided and alienated because Catholic relatives could not attend baptisms, weddings and funerals of Protestant kinfolk? And how did that kind of bigotry contribute to Christian growth and understanding?

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all of his children, of every creed, color, culture and country. Religion should be a bridge. Too often we have warped it into a barrier.

 

[rinnie]

---

Yes, I agree. This is why I have trouble with the emphasis the CC places on correct doctrine. When the lawyer asked Jesus how to gain eternal life, Christ said nothing about this dogma or that. Instead, he told the parable of the Good Samaritan. And let us remember that the Samaritans were 'heretics' and even worse in the eyes of Hebrew society. Yet, Christ chose one of them to set an example for the rest of us.

 As I've noted from time to time, I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage. Over the years I have found it more and more difficult to accept traditional Catholicism because of its insistence upon doctrinal and liturgical conformity. I presume I have an independent streak which some would dismiss as egotism, but I guess I've concluded that God is merciful and certainly doesn't condemn anybody who seeks to live a good life but can't subscribe to all the rubrics laid down by the CC, or by any church.

 Frankly, I find it liberating to investigate and learn about and from different faiths. This old pre-Vatican notion that condemned everything but Catholicism didn't - in my view - reflect the mercy of God. Would he condemn us for using the brains he gave us to examine various faiths? That used to be the CC position. I am old enough to remember when it was a 'big sin' even to enter a Protestant church. How many times families were divided and alienated because Catholic relatives could not attend baptisms, weddings and funerals of Protestant kinfolk? And how did that kind of bigotry contribute to Christian growth and understanding?

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all of his children, of every creed, color, culture and country. Religion should be a bridge. Too often we have warped it into a barrier.

Oh now Roy I can’t say I agree with you here at all now. Why do you say should we have to stick with the Teachings of the Church and the Apostles? Simple the word of God tells us to.

Now in the scripture it says in Titus 2:15 for example Say these things Exhort and correct with all authority. Let no one look down on you. Right above that scripture it tells us to do EXACTLY the OPPOSITE of what you are saying. we are told to Adorn the DOCTRINE of God our Savior in EVERY WAY. Now how can we do that without putting emphasis on Doctrine then?

Another question for you. Also in Titus 3:10 It says after a few warnings break off all contact with a heretic realizing that such a person is perverted and sinful and stands self-condmened. What that means is in matters of good conduct and religious DOCTRINE TITUS is to stand firm. Now how is what you are teaching line up with scripture?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

---

Yes, I agree. This is why I have trouble with the emphasis the CC places on correct doctrine. When the lawyer asked Jesus how to gain eternal life, Christ said nothing about this dogma or that. Instead, he told the parable of the Good Samaritan. And let us remember that the Samaritans were 'heretics' and even worse in the eyes of Hebrew society. Yet, Christ chose one of them to set an example for the rest of us.

 As I've noted from time to time, I come from a mixed Catholic-Protestant heritage. Over the years I have found it more and more difficult to [SIGN]accept traditional Catholicism because of its insistence upon doctrinal and liturgical conformity. [/SIGN]I presume I have an independent streak which some would dismiss as egotism, but I guess I've concluded that God is merciful and certainly doesn't condemn anybody who seeks to live a good life but can't subscribe to all the rubrics laid down by the CC, or by any church.

 Frankly, I find it liberating to investigate and learn about and from different faiths. This old pre-Vatican notion that condemned everything but Catholicism didn't - in my view - reflect the mercy of God. Would he condemn us for using the brains he gave us to examine various faiths? That used to be the CC position. I am old enough to remember when it was a 'big sin' even to enter a Protestant church. How many times families were divided and alienated because Catholic relatives could not attend baptisms, weddings and funerals of Protestant kinfolk? And how did that kind of bigotry contribute to Christian growth and understanding?

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and all of his children, of every creed, color, culture and country. Religion should be a bridge. Too often we have warped it into a barrier.

Do you see now why in Titus the Church teaches this. Simple because it is the word of God. Now you have to show me scriture or Oral Teachings that teach that the Church should go against the CHurch. Remember what God says a Church that stands against itself falls. The Church cannot stand against itself. That is why it will never fall.

 

[Roy5]

If someone believes that the Church cannot fail, they should relax and not worry about ‘heretics’ and others of us out here who may have become uncomfortable with a religion that demands conformity. Am I too influenced by democracy, that notion that freedom is to be treasured and exercised? Yes, even when it comes to matters of faith?

The scriptures have been interpreted in many different ways, of course. I don’t pretend to understand everything by a long shot, but I’ve come to the point where I’m not ready to let any church or any preacher or any book (even the Bible) do my thinking for me. To begin with, the same scriptures produce, for example, devoted Quakers and Mennonites who refuse to kill (Ten Commandments?), so they won’t join the military? And it seems that Jesus may have supported their position. Didn’t he say something about turning the other cheek and even loving our enemies? I even recall that he said something about those who take up the sword will perish by the sword??? Quite in contrast to Joshua whom God told to slaughter everyone in Jericho. Or, that King Saul whom God ordered to kill every last Amalekite? I guess I can’t understand how that fits in with pro-life on the abortion issue and the Sermon on the Mount.

Enough ranting. My point is that some people salute when a church or a preacher says salute. I don't. I reserve the right to use common sense, as when St. Paul writes Timothy that women should keep silence in the church and 'not to teach, not to usurp authority over a man..."  When I read such passages I think of Mother Angelica and remember all the women who have read lessons at mass!

 Being stuck in the ancient past, quoting superstitious Church Fathers as serious authorities for our time, taking the Bible literally throughout, revering the Pope with such adulation - these practices and others trouble me, whether by Catholics or Protestants. I try to be a faithful follower of my Lord, Jesus, but so much else that we insist upon is fluff. I've learned over the years that this universe is so mammoth and magnificent and mysterious and miraculous that stories and theories based on a three-tier 'heaven up above and a hell down below' are primitive. Jesus sitting on the right hand of God the Father? Really? And how are left-handed people supposed to respond to that bit of a put-down?

 God bless us all. And tolerate us all in our tribal arrogance, too.

 

[BibleProphecy]

The church of God (1 Cor.10:32) are WITHIN EVERY denomination throughout the entire world.

Believers on Christ Jesus have become a “new” creature (Gal.6:15, 2 Cor.5:17 ). Believers have BECOME, individually, as well as collectively, the church of God (1 Cor.10:32, 1 Cor.1:2, 1 Cor.15:9, Gal.1:13 below), the living body of Christ (Col.1:24).

Bible Prophecy Bible Studies ©
Amazon Kindle Edition 3.99

 

[DrSharkey]

Personally, I think being a protestant is “easier”, just because you don’t really have to believe, think, say or do anything. Say the “sinner’s prayer”, maybe get baptized, but other than that, you can sleep in on Sunday this weekend, if you want to.

I can say, though, that my family and I are MUCH happier as Catholics than we ever were as protesters…

 

[Roy5]

Gosh, the figures I have read suggest that evangelical Protestants are much more likely to attend weekend worship than Catholics. Not so true of mainline Protestants, perhaps.

And I also have the impression that many Protestants - maybe most - are more deeply involved in their churches than Catholics. That's my observation up here in the Northeast, perhaps not everywhere. So many Catholics at churches I have attended seem to make a beeline for the parking lot as soon as Mass is over, while Protestants hang around etc.

But that may be true here and not elsewhere???

 

[Cat]

Gosh, the figures I have read suggest that evangelical Protestants are much more likely to attend weekend worship than Catholics. Not so true of mainline Protestants, perhaps.

And I also have the impression that many Protestants - maybe most - are more deeply involved in their churches than Catholics. That's my observation up here in the Northeast, perhaps not everywhere. So many Catholics at churches I have attended seem to make a beeline for the parking lot as soon as Mass is over, while Protestants hang around etc.

But that may be true here and not elsewhere???

One of the reasons why my husband and I always attended Sunday worship services as evangelical Protestants is that, like many of our friends in the church, we were uber involved with many ministries.

I was in charge of Children’s Church (church for young children 3-5, although many older children “volunteered to help” in my Children’s Church because they liked it better than the adult worship service, and I also played piano almost every week. My husband was usually involved with running the sound system, and he also helped out in various youth ministries.

Also, almost everyone in our church was obligated to take a turn in the nursery, which took care of children ages birth through age 3 (once they turned three, they came to my children’s church). Very very few people kept their babies or toddlers with them during the worship service.

So many of us had a “job to do” on Sundays, whether it was teaching Sunday school, singing or playing for the choir, ushering, greeting, altar call counselling, nursery, youth ministry, kitchen help (coffee and donuts), preparing the communion bread and grape juice (if it was a communion Sunday), cleaning up the communion bread and grape juice, etc. etc.

So no, we were not “obligated” to attend church, but a lot of people were counting on us to be there and do our jobs!

Don’t get the wrong idea–we loved it! I still love playing the piano in Mass, and until recently, my husband helped out with RCIA and he is an usher.

I think that the best way to keep people coming to church is to get them involved with a ministry. Then they come because they know that others are expecting them and looking forward to their ministry, whatever it is.

 

[Cat]

Gosh, the figures I have read suggest that evangelical Protestants are much more likely to attend weekend worship than Catholics. Not so true of mainline Protestants, perhaps.

And I also have the impression that many Protestants - maybe most - are more deeply involved in their churches than Catholics. That's my observation up here in the Northeast, perhaps not everywhere. So many Catholics at churches I have attended seem to make a beeline for the parking lot as soon as Mass is over, while Protestants hang around etc.

But that may be true here and not elsewhere???

Keep in mind that my husband and I were evangelical Protestant for 47 years before converting to Catholicism.

For many evangelical Protestants, church is their life. I will speak in the first person for me and my husband, but I think our experience was (and still is) typical of evangelical Protestants.

ALL of our friends were in the church. The only people we socialized with were church people, and usually those socials took place in the church. Our worship services were “fellowships,” and there were other fellowship activities that were not worship services; e.g., children’s clubs, adult Bible studies and prayer meetings, ladies missionary societies, men’s clubs, etc.

My husband and I, along with our children, were usually in the church at least 5-6 days/evenings each week. If we did have dinner (usually at home) with anyone, it was probably a church family. We didn’t really associate much with people outside of our church, although once our family got involved with figure skating, we did a lot of our socializing with these rink families–and we were called out for it at our church. People in the church thought that it was wrong of us to spend so much time in a non-church environment and openly criticized us for not being at church as much as we were at the rink.

So no wonder we hung around after the worship service–the church was our “social center,” our “gathering place.”

BUT…that’s NOT the way it is in the Catholic Church.

Catholics are divided into “parishes,” (we would call them “neighborhoods” in these modern times). The idea was that all the people in the parish would become friends because they lived close to each other. Their children would attend the parish school and that would give the families plenty of opportunities to become friends and socialize. In the past, many of the parish people shopped at the same neighborhood stores, ate at the same coffee shops, and socialized at the same bars and nightclubs.

In other words, they actually got to know each other and socialized OUTSIDE of the church doors!

This is a difficult concept for evangelicals to wrap their minds around, at least older evangelicals like me and my husband. We literally grew up in the church–we were there all the time and that’s where we socialized. We really didn’t do much outside of the church.

But Catholics socialized OUTSIDE the church, and the church was reserved for the worship of God in the Mass.

Also, keep in mind that Catholics drank alcohol, which meant going to bars or having parties at home. Until recently, evangelicals were generally abstainers, and so they didn’t go to bars or have “parties.” They had “potlucks” (or covered dish suppers) at church in the Fellowship Hall.

I think that even though evangelical social practices are changing and the people are getting outside their churches more, there are still a lot of evangelicals who know very few people outside of their church, and who do little socializing outside of their church.

So it’s no wonder that evangelicals hang around after worship services–it’s part of a long-standing social culture. And it’s no wonder that Catholics leave immediately after Mass–the idea of the church as a social gathering place and fellowship headquarters is simply not part of the Catholic social culture.

But we have to realize that both groups, evangelical Protestants and Catholics, are friendly and enjoy being with their friends. They just practice their friendships in different places. This makes it appear as though the Catholic Church isn’t as “friendly,” but that’s not true at all. They’re just friendly OUTSIDE of the church building!

 

[fpesce]

Why oh why is there such an issue with who is Catholic or Protestant? Please remember as Catholics or as Protestants (ALL CHRISTIANS) need to remember and keep in our hearts Jesus’s commandments from Luke 10:27:

: He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

The quote doesn’t finish with, “…and your Catholic (or Protestant) neighbor as yourself”, Jesus said, “…and your neighbor as yourself”.

My brothers and sisters don’t you realize the division, bad feeling, and pride, this kind of talk creates? How many times do we quote, " They will know we are Christians by our LOVE"?

Please, no matter who the person is, even a Satin worshiper, we MUST remember our LORD JESUS sacrificed Himself on the cross so that ALL men may be brought to the realization of His salvation.

We “LOVE the sinner, hate the sin”. Where there is contention there is all manner of evil.
Love overcomes all evil. Do not spread contention spread love. With love all things are possible.

Is it better to say, “I follow Paul, or I follow Peter, or I follow JESUS”. If you follow Jesus, the do what He says. He says," Love your neighbor as I have loved you". Jesus didn’t go to Zacchaeus, the chief tax collector, and say,“repent”. He preached the Kingdom of God and salvation. When Zacchaeus heard the news he received it. There was never any condeming words from Jesus’s mouth. In fact Jesus said in John 5:24: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Preach the same and the harvest will be great!

God’s blessing on us all.

 

[MrPDGee]

Define “easier”.
Since Christ has done all the work in salvation, and is the very life of every believer, living for Him should be “easy” - after all, as Paul said “I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” [Gal 2:20]​

Rom 3:22

 

[TrueLight]

Catholics are divided into “parishes,” (we would call them “neighborhoods” in these modern times). The idea was that all the people in the parish would become friends because they lived close to each other. Their children would attend the parish school and that would give the families plenty of opportunities to become friends and socialize. In the past, many of the parish people shopped at the same neighborhood stores, ate at the same coffee shops, and socialized at the same bars and nightclubs.

Then I guess I’m done for. My neighborhood does not have the kind of mass I want (EF), so I have to travel at least 1 - 1.5 hours to a parish that does.

 

[zdon011]

What a strange question. I suppose if you were High Church Anglican and worried about anti-Catholic tendencies within your own communion (e.g. yours truly) then the answer would be ‘neither’…

 

[Cat]

Then I guess I’m done for. My neighborhood does not have the kind of mass I want (EF), so I have to travel at least 1 - 1.5 hours to a parish that does.

Yes, I agree that times have changed. In the United States, the “neighborhoods” that were once well-defined no longer exist as people go to school, work, shop, play, etc. all over their town/city and indeed, often away from their city. So IMO, the parish system doesn’t really work that well in the U.S. Add to that the fact the “cocooning” behavior that characterizes so many American families (holing up in their houses and interacting only with their own families and very close friends), and you have a situation where the parish system of fellowship really doesn’t seem to happen anymore, at least among younger Catholics.

TrueLight, keep in mind that even back when all the Masses were EF, there were Catholics who didn’t care for their parish church for one reason or another. They may not have liked the priest, the choir director, the CCD teacher, the parish school, the St. Joseph’s feast, the architecture, the color of the carpet, etc.

But they didn’t walk away. They stuck it out and trusted in Jesus and the Church.

My suggestion to you, TrueLight, is to try to set aside your personal Mass preferences and learn to embrace the priceless treasure that the Church gives you in your own parish. The Ordinary Form of the Mass is fully endorsed by Holy Mother Church. Stop looking at the externals (the language, the music, the choreography, etc.) and look at Jesus.

If there are abuses in the Mass that make it difficult for you to accept, do some of the good things that various posters on CAF have recommended (contact your priest, etc.) and work towards purifying your Mass. But don’t obsess with these abuses. The Mass is usually still valid and licit, even with abuses. Jesus is still present and still gives Himself to us in Holy Communion.

 

[jwakja]

IMO, I see Protestants as people who don’t seek out the truth that Jesus has revealed in the one true Catholic Church, declare their own thoughts and actions away from what Christ intended, and twist the Bible to their own beliefs and not Christ’s. They may be good but are astray from admitting that the Catholic Church as the one true faith because it is VERY difficult to follow in Christs steps here on earth as a catholic or the way God intended . The lazy way is to declare that you are “born again” and therefore do what you want and desire here on earth and not what Christ taught and asks us to do. I see their faith as shallow and baseless. Living a Catholic life as a true Christian is different than declaring yourself a Christian. You may talk the talk but can you walk the walk?

 

[zdon011]

IMO, I see Protestants as people who don’t seek out the truth that Jesus has revealed in the one true Catholic Church, declare their own thoughts and actions away from what Christ intended, and twist the Bible to their own beliefs and not Christ’s. They may be good but are astray from admitting that the Catholic Church as the one true faith because it is VERY difficult to follow in Christs steps here on earth as a catholic or the way God intended . The lazy way is to declare that you are “born again” and therefore do what you want and desire here on earth and not what Christ taught and asks us to do. I see their faith as shallow and baseless. Living a Catholic life as a true Christian is different than declaring yourself a Christian. You may talk the talk but can you walk the walk?

True. Too many times I’ve heard acquaintances claim that ultimate ‘all that mattered’ was their ‘personal relationship’ with Christ, basically reducing the fullness of the Faith to selfish feelgoodness. It makes me so angry when Protestant organizations so casually ignore the first 1500 years of their own religion. They lump Catholics and Orthodox together with non-Christians and declare that they are going off to ‘spread the Gospel’ in South America or Poland: an insult to true evangelists like las Casas and Hyacinth