Is it ever OK to lie?

[Ron_Conte]

Lying in dire circumstances with good intention is a venial sin.

However, heresy is a mortal sin.
It is the definitive teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium:
that the end does not justify the means
and that certain kinds of acts, called intrinsically evil acts, are always immoral,
regardless of intention or circumstances.
The rejection of this basic teaching on morality is the serious sin of heresy.
Promoting or teaching heresy is an even more serious sin.

I am **not **here referring to persons who have doubts about how to understand and apply
the above stated teaching of the Magisterium. And I am **not **referring to persons who
believe what the Church teaches, but who also think that they themselves would
probably commit a venial sin if the circumstances were dire.

I am referring to all those persons who call themselves Catholics,
but who feel free to believe whatever seems good to them,
in open contradiction to the definitive teaching of the Church.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Personally I think spouting codswallop and saying that anyone who disagrees with you must be a heretic is pretty bad.

I don’t believe the Church actually supports what you say Ron, so disagreeing with you is not heresy. The Church is not as illogical.

 

[Rascalking]

I am referring to all those persons who call themselves Catholics,
but who feel free to believe whatever seems good to them,
in open contradiction to the definitive teaching of the Church.

This might all be true. But please explain to me how discussing and questioning and not partaking in the actions is a contradiction.

It’s sort of insulting to the Catholic church-they don’t demand blind and unquestioning obedience. They can handle a discussion. In fact, I really enjoy it when people question the church-we have the the intellectual capacity, style, and yes, wit, to win the debate.

 

[Squanto]

The CCC and Veritatis Splendor are sufficient to establish the teaching that lying is always immoral, regardless of circumstances. There is no basis in Tradition or Scripture or Magisterium for the claim that maybe some deliberate assertions of falsehoods are really not lies, but something else.

Ron Conte,

Can we look more closely at the CCC, which you cite as an authority?

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. **This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.
**
2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283

It appears that the prohibition on lying is not so ironclad, in the CCC. We may choose to deceive, or withhold information, by being silent, or just not communicating the truth. Some do not have the right to know the truth, though they may ask.

Is this type of evasion or deception, as cited in the CCC, considered lying?

 

[Rence]

I refuse to believe that lying to save innocent people’s lives is a sin AT ALL. So it would have been better, in the eyes of the church, to give up Jews for slaughter? That is absurd.

lol @ the end not justifying the means…the end is saving innocent people’s lives and the means is lying to horrible, evil, and vial people looking to kill innocent people. Yes…the ends definitely don’t justify the means in that case

THANK GOD THAT THE PEOPLE THAT HARBORED JEWS DURING THE HOLOCAUST DID NOT FOLLOW THE RULES OF THE CHURCH!!!

Don’t get so upset, this is just a case of ultra conservatives misinterpreting and misrepresenting Church teachings. They don’t mean to, and they’re certainly not being malignant, they’re just caught up in taking the rules further than the Church intended. OF COURSE, people who lied about the whereabouts of Jews-in-hiding weren’t sinning. That’s just beyond stupid. Don’t judge the Church by a few people’s claims about Church teachings that scream out to you that it’s not correct. If you have a question like this, just ask your priest. Even the best of Catholics hid the Jews during the Haulocaust. It was the right thing to do. And telling the Nazi’s you were hiding Jews or telling them the whereabouts of the Jews would only accomplish getting your, your family and the Jews slaughtered. And I’m not too entirely sure how God will find your “fessing up” to be noble.

With all due respect, and please, no insulting intended: A person who gave the whereabouts of Jews-in-hiding to the Nazis in order to avoid lying wasn’t just a “bad” Catholic, but he was a coward with no regard to “human life” at all. And only that.

Hellsopeople, you need to find a good priest to talk to. Some of the folks on CAF are WONDERFUL and dedicated resources, but they don’t know it all. But you know, you have to give them credit because their intentions are true and honorable. They’re just a bit misquided. Although I did read at least one post in this thread with a bit of common sense

 

[Rence]

I completely agree. In some cases lying is necessary. If you, in the case of Nazis, were to remain silent or refuse to answer they would then kill you, your whole family, find the Jews being hidden and kill them too. If you lie “there are no jews here” and defend it well, your family is spared, you are spared, and the Jews are spared.

And if we’re gunna talk about lying, lets get real here!! Lying isn’t limited to words, lying can be extrapolated to actions too! Isn’t the very act of hiding Jews committing a falsehood and therefore lying? You are perpetuating the lie “there are no jews in this area.”

I honestly would rather be a liar who saves the lives and relationships of people that a “virtuous” person who allows innocent people to be torn apart by the wills of evil. Honestly, the whole scenario reeks of the very things Jesus condemned the Pharasees about. They clung to their false sense of self-righteousness because they never sinned, but failed in the case of the biggest command: to love one another.

Whitacre girl, you and I don’t agree on many things, but I think we agree here And I’m not sure, but I think you may even with me when I say that omission of known evil is also a sin. If one knows something bad is happening, and one doesn’t report it to the proper authorities because it’s taught to keep behind a veil of secrecy of some sort; or if one can, force the hand of the one who is commiting the evil, then that is lying too, and even taking part in that evil doing.

I see a lot of similarities with the Parasees in these situations…We are not drones. God gaves us brains with which to think. Use the gift or reasoning that God gave you. Or else you waste his gift.

 

[SGHumanist]

It is not possible that a lie is always a sin.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” is found both in the ten commands and repeated by Jesus. The intent is clear and it does not restrict all lying.

This is a good example why folks like me get so frustrated with the Catholic Church – they beat a concept to death.

Examples have been given where is morally imperative to lie.

But I have a very common example that affects almost everyone. This is what social workers call the therapeutic lie. If a patient has Alzheimer’s and ask about the whereabouts of his dead wife, the right, the moral answer, is to say she went shopping and will be back soon, because he askes the question every day and is always happy with the answer, but is devastated every time he is told his wife is dead. Similarly, to get an Alzheimer’s patient to take a bath it is the moral thing to do to tell him that we are on going to church. To distract the Alzheimer’s patient from focusing on an obsession you distract him by telling him you are going for ice cream whether or not it is true.

There is nothing immoral about these actions, they do not violate bear false witness, and they are not immoral. They may violate specific provisions of the Catechism but that means the Catechism needs fixing not that people have to be cruel.

How can a hell or a purgatory exist or a God be good when people are to be sent to hell or purgatory for protecting an Alzheimer’s patient from the agony of learning every day his wife is dead???

 

[Doc_Keele]

Don’t get so upset, this is just a case of ultra conservatives misinterpreting and misrepresenting Church teachings. They don’t mean to, and they’re certainly not being malignant, they’re just caught up in taking the rules further than the Church intended. OF COURSE, people who lied about the whereabouts of Jews-in-hiding weren’t sinning. That’s just beyond stupid. Don’t judge the Church by a few people’s claims about Church teachings that scream out to you that it’s not correct. If you have a question like this, just ask your priest. Even the best of Catholics hid the Jews during the Haulocaust. It was the right thing to do. And telling the Nazi’s you were hiding Jews or telling them the whereabouts of the Jews would only accomplish getting your, your family and the Jews slaughtered. And I’m not too entirely sure how God will find your “fessing up” to be noble.

With all due respect, and please, no insulting intended: A person who gave the whereabouts of Jews-in-hiding to the Nazis in order to avoid lying wasn’t just a “bad” Catholic, but he was a coward with no regard to “human life” at all. And only that.

Hellsopeople, you need to find a good priest to talk to. Some of the folks on CAF are WONDERFUL and dedicated resources, but they don’t know it all. But you know, you have to give them credit because their intentions are true and honorable. They’re just a bit misquided. Although I did read at least one post in this thread with a bit of common sense

…and the most disturbing thing is that these ultra-conservatives seem to be claiming the right to declare that someone is a heretic,on the basis that that person disagrees with them?
That’s very worrying indeed.

 

[didymus]

Wait, so according to the church, it would have been a sin to lie to the Nazis?..that is so wrong.

Funny you should ask. I just ran across an article by Mark Shea.

It is a curious fact that the same book of Exodus which informs us of the command, “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” (Exodus 20:16) begins with the story of a good solid practical lie:
Then the king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, one of whom was named Shiphrah and the other Puah, “When you serve as midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the birthstool, if it is a son, you shall kill him, but if it is a daughter, she shall live.” But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but let the male children live. So the king of Egypt called the midwives, and said to them, “Why have you done this, and let the male children live?” The midwives said to Pharaoh, “Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are vigorous and are delivered before the midwife comes to them.” (Exodus 1:15-19)
Some rigorist readers of this text are troubled in conscience about this bald faced lie and offer various explanations of why this lie was wrong, but God overlooked it due to the need to get on with the Big Picture, or because he is inscrutable, or whatever. However, the sacred author himself seems to have no such qualms as the modern rigorist. He cheerily continues:
So God dealt well with the midwives; and the people multiplied and grew very strong. And because the midwives feared God he gave them families. (Exodus 1:20-21)
In other words, God rewarded the midwives, not in spite of their lies, but because of them. That’s the sort of paradox that is all in day’s work for a biblical author and it confronts us, in a backhanded way, with just why the commandment against bearing false witness is needed: telling the truth is hard and sometimes people don’t have a right to full disclosure.

That last part is where I’d hang my hat as far as lying to the Nazis. Legitimate police pursuing criminals are entitled to cooperation from citizens, the secret police hunting down dissidents or ethnic minorities are not.

 

[hellopeople]

Don’t get so upset, this is just a case of ultra conservatives misinterpreting and misrepresenting Church teachings. They don’t mean to, and they’re certainly not being malignant, they’re just caught up in taking the rules further than the Church intended. OF COURSE, people who lied about the whereabouts of Jews-in-hiding weren’t sinning. That’s just beyond stupid. Don’t judge the Church by a few people’s claims about Church teachings that scream out to you that it’s not correct. If you have a question like this, just ask your priest. Even the best of Catholics hid the Jews during the Haulocaust. It was the right thing to do. And telling the Nazi’s you were hiding Jews or telling them the whereabouts of the Jews would only accomplish getting your, your family and the Jews slaughtered. And I’m not too entirely sure how God will find your “fessing up” to be noble.

With all due respect, and please, no insulting intended: A person who gave the whereabouts of Jews-in-hiding to the Nazis in order to avoid lying wasn’t just a “bad” Catholic, but he was a coward with no regard to “human life” at all. And only that.

Hellsopeople, you need to find a good priest to talk to. Some of the folks on CAF are WONDERFUL and dedicated resources, but they don’t know it all. But you know, you have to give them credit because their intentions are true and honorable. They’re just a bit misquided. Although I did read at least one post in this thread with a bit of common sense

I have talked to good priests. I told one priest that I talked (who I respect very much due to his relationship with my grandfather, who was a GREAT Catholic) that I was very interested in Buddhism and other religions and I really liked their philosophies. I also told him that I didn’t put too much weight into some of the sacraments and such. He told me that the Catholic Church didn’t have all the answers and that I should explore other religions. I felt good about Catholicism and what it preached after this…but after reading some of the ultra conservative things on this board I have grown to dislike Catholicism and its teachings. Mind you the conservative people on this board would likely call that priest a heretic and say he should be excommunicated. I have talked to many priests about different issues and have even been taught theology by different priests in high school and none of them taught a conservative message like some people on this board.

 

[Newbie2]

I have talked to good priests. I told one priest that I talked (who I respect very much due to his relationship with my grandfather, who was a GREAT Catholic) that I was very interested in Buddhism and other religions and I really liked their philosophies. I also told him that I didn’t put too much weight into some of the sacraments and such. He told me that the Catholic Church didn’t have all the answers and that I should explore other religions. ** I felt good about Catholicism and what it preached after this…but after reading some of the ultra conservative things on this board I have grown to dislike Catholicism and its teachings.** Mind you the conservative people on this board would likely call that priest a heretic and say he should be excommunicated. I have talked to many priests about different issues and have even been taught theology by different priests in high school and none of them taught a conservative message like some people on this board.

I find it curious that you’d put so much stock into the opinions of anonymous others on an internet forum when deciding on a vehicle for your eternal salvation.

But you’re entirely correct about the “conservative” tendancies about many on this forum; more Catholic than the Pope, as some might say…

 

[Doc_Keele]

I find it curious that you’d put so much stock into the opinions of anonymous others on an internet forum when deciding on a vehicle for your eternal salvation.

But you’re entirely correct about the “conservative” tendancies about many on this forum; more Catholic than the Pope, as some might say…

well said:thumbsup:

 

[Doc_Keele]

hellopeople, there’s a chap in my Carmelite group who was a Buddhist for a while but has now come back to the Catholich Church, and he sees it as a vital part of the development of his faith, not a phase to be lamented. He has some really useful insights.
He sounds a lovely guy, this priest

 

[JohnMPhilomena]

I never lie - unless it’s ABSOLUTELY convenient.

Just kidding. I don’t believe it is OK to lie even to save yourself, but we are human and can only do what God gives us the grace to do.

Remember Peter denying Christ 3 times? He didn’t want to, but he caved under the stress and fear of the situation. He wept bitterly afterward.

Also, not every question needs to be answered. When the policeman pulls you over and says, “Do you know how fast you were going?”. you could lie and say you were going the speed limit, you could lie and say you don’t know, you could tell the truth and basically testify against yourself, or you could say, “I don’t wish to make any statements at this time.” This is a really hard situation. The temptation to lie is very strong.

Very often lies are a sin of pride. Why don’t you have your homework? - you may be tempted to say, “My dog ate it.” This is because you don’t want to admit that you were lazy.

Anyway do the best you can. Pray for strength in these situations. Be truly sorry if you fall, go to confession and have your sins absolved.

Peace,
John Marie Philomena

 

[hellopeople]

hellopeople, there’s a chap in my Carmelite group who was a Buddhist for a while but has now come back to the Catholich Church, and he sees it as a vital part of the development of his faith, not a phase to be lamented. He has some really useful insights.
He sounds a lovely guy, this priest

In my opinion, Buddhism harmonizes very well with Catholicism and Christianity. My mother is a staunch Catholic and I talked to her about my interest in meditation and to my surprise told me that meditation was great and that “everyone meditates.” When I asked her who everyone was, she mentioned our parish priest, our parish nun (both of whom I look up to) and even a Christian pastor who she talks with often. I mean, to be honest, what do you think Jesus did in the desert for 40 days?

Since joining these forums I have gone from thinking that Catholicism was a great and logical religion and one I share most beliefs with to thinking that Catholicism was an old, rigid, and immoral religion. I think there is something wrong with that.

I think that according to doctrine Catholicism can be a rigid religion, but I think that on the ground it is very different.

Also, to get back to the original question while speaking of Buddhism, there is a belief in Buddhism called “upaya” (skillful means in english). Upaya is basically lying for the greater good or to help someone get closer to enlightenment.

 

[Doc_Keele]

In my opinion, Buddhism harmonizes very well with Catholicism and Christianity. My mother is a staunch Catholic and I talked to her about my interest in meditation and to my surprise told me that meditation was great and that “everyone meditates.” When I asked her who everyone was, she mentioned our parish priest, our parish nun (both of whom I look up to) and even a Christian pastor who she talks with often. I mean, to be honest, what do you think Jesus did in the desert for 40 days?

Since joining these forums I have gone from thinking that Catholicism was a great and logical religion and one I share most beliefs with to thinking that Catholicism was an old, rigid, and immoral religion. I think there is something wrong with that

Yes, some of the opinions expressed here do not show Catholicism in the best light IMO. I understand exactly how you feel.

I think that according to doctrine Catholicism can be a rigid religion, but I think that on the ground it is very different.

Yes I agree. The worrying thought is that the ultra conservatives might actually be the ones who are the “good” (as in loyal and faithful) Catholics.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Help everyone, I am supposed to deal with this question in a talk I have to give to my class and I would like to know what the correct Catholic answer might be. I have tried ‘asking’ but they have not choosen my question - too busy on others I suppose.

I know that the Natural Law teachings of the Catholic Church says that lying is wrong.
I also know that you are not allowed to do wrong in order to bring about a good.

[So, for example, a woman is not allowed the wrong of an abortion because she is very poor and wants to do the best for her existing family. The only situation where an abortion is allowed is if, say, the woman was being treated for a life-threatening condition which had, the abortion as an unintended side-effect.

Suppose the Mafia demand of me the whereabouts of my neighbour. If I lie to save their lives I have done evil [lying[ in order to do good [save life]. The lie is not a side-effect. So it seems I must either tell a lie and my neighbours die or I must refuse to answer in which case I die!

Have I got this right?

Thanks for anyone who can put me straight…

Laurie Gibson

Hi! I ran across this very same thing a few months ago and checked the CCC. This is what I found:

*The right to the communication *of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.
[CCC 2284]

Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to now it.
[CCC 2285, bolding mine]

Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning people’s private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights…
[CCC 2492]

I think there is a very basic difference between a lie and an untruth. A lie is always wrong because that is part of the definition of “lie.” An untruth may not always be a sin; for example, one may be forced to tell an untruth in order to save somebody’s life, as you have written above.

If this is not Church teaching, I hope that somebody tells me; I apologize for any errors and bow to the teachings of the Magisterium (sometimes I make mistakes).

Sancta Maria! Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[Coder]

See John 6:5-6. Note that this is not an example of a lie when the meaning of the word “lie” includes witholding the truth from those who have a right to it.

usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john6.htm

 

[LittleSoldier]

It is not possible that a lie is always a sin.

“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor” is found both in the ten commands and repeated by Jesus. The intent is clear and it does not restrict all lying.

This is a good example why folks like me get so frustrated with the Catholic Church – they beat a concept to death.

Examples have been given where is morally imperative to lie.

But I have a very common example that affects almost everyone. This is what social workers call the therapeutic lie. If a patient has Alzheimer’s and ask about the whereabouts of his dead wife, the right, the moral answer, is to say she went shopping and will be back soon, because he askes the question every day and is always happy with the answer, but is devastated every time he is told his wife is dead. Similarly, to get an Alzheimer’s patient to take a bath it is the moral thing to do to tell him that we are on going to church. To distract the Alzheimer’s patient from focusing on an obsession you distract him by telling him you are going for ice cream whether or not it is true.

There is nothing immoral about these actions, they do not violate bear false witness, and they are not immoral. They may violate specific provisions of the Catechism but that means the Catechism needs fixing not that people have to be cruel.

How can a hell or a purgatory exist or a God be good when people are to be sent to hell or purgatory for protecting an Alzheimer’s patient from the agony of learning every day his wife is dead???

First of all, you need to know the definition of “lie.” It has a specific meaning in the Catholic Church:

**The Catholic theological definition of a lie is, “To deny others access to knowledge to which they are entitled”. **

answers.com/topic/lie [scroll way down to where the definition appears. I know this isn’t a good reference, but it’s the best I could find right now]

It is always a sin to lie.

Does the patient with Alzheimer’s have the right to know the truth? No, because if he were aware of the truth he would become extremely agitated.

For another example, a diabetic goes into an insulin reaction which can be reversed if she eats a candy bar. She refuses because the candy bar contains sugar and she is confused, not knowing she is in an insulin reaction. It is not a lie to tell her the candy bar has no sugar. She does not have the right to know the truth about the candy bar - her eating it will save her life. It isn’t a lie - it is an untruth.

A loving God does not “send” good people to hell. People choose where they wish to go. If they do not wish to be with God, He will not force them to be with Him. If it were any other way, He would be taking away our free will.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I have talked to good priests. I told one priest that I talked (who I respect very much due to his relationship with my grandfather, who was a GREAT Catholic) that I was very interested in Buddhism and other religions and I really liked their philosophies. I also told him that I didn’t put too much weight into some of the sacraments and such. He told me that the Catholic Church didn’t have all the answers and that I should explore other religions. I felt good about Catholicism and what it preached after this…but after reading some of the ultra conservative things on this board I have grown to dislike Catholicism and its teachings. Mind you the conservative people on this board would likely call that priest a heretic and say he should be excommunicated. I have talked to many priests about different issues and have even been taught theology by different priests in high school and none of them taught a conservative message like some people on this board.

The late Fulton Sheen said “There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.”

home.inreach.com/bstanley/sheen.htm

Do you really dislike Catholicism or what you think Catholicism is?

Sancta Maria! Ora pro nobis.