Is it ever OK to lie?

[LittleSoldier]

Lying in dire circumstances with good intention is a venial sin.

However, heresy is a mortal sin.
It is the definitive teaching of the ordinary and universal Magisterium:
that the end does not justify the means
and that certain kinds of acts, called intrinsically evil acts, are always immoral,
regardless of intention or circumstances.
The rejection of this basic teaching on morality is the serious sin of heresy.
Promoting or teaching heresy is an even more serious sin.

I am **not **here referring to persons who have doubts about how to understand and apply
the above stated teaching of the Magisterium. And I am **not **referring to persons who
believe what the Church teaches, but who also think that they themselves would
probably commit a venial sin if the circumstances were dire.

I am referring to all those persons who call themselves Catholics,
but who feel free to believe whatever seems good to them,
in open contradiction to the definitive teaching of the Church.

Thank you, Ron. You have expressed it very well.

Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.

 

[Rence]

…and the most disturbing thing is that these ultra-conservatives seem to be claiming the right to declare that someone is a heretic,on the basis that that person disagrees with them?
That’s very worrying indeed.

Well, it’s worrying if you’re likely to fall for their nonsense because it tends to push people away from the Church. It also gives the Church a bad name. I was starting to hate the Church over some of the stupid things people were saying and She certainly wasn’t even responsible for the bad information. When it doubt, ask your priest. If it doesn’t sound right, or moral, please ask your priest

Here, let me post it again, just in case it was missed: Yes, it can be OK to lie…for example, to save someone’s life. According to the CCC:

[CCC 2284]
The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

[CCC 2285]
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to now it.

[CCC 2492]
Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning people’s private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights…

 

[Bookcat]

Your previous claim, that circumstances can reduce a sin to become a very very very slight sin, even to the point of almost not being a sin, is not correct.

The degree of sinfulness and degree of culpability of a sin depends on:
the degree of knowledge
the degree of consent
intention
moral object
circumstances.

When knowledge and consent are both full, and the moral object is evil, as in the case of a fully deliberate lie, then the act is more serious than a semi-deliberate venial sin, or a venial sin in which the knowledge is not full. Fully deliberate venial sins, done with full knowledge, are not mortal sins, but they also are not vanishingly slight.

if it is a lie…

We are talking about a lie to a Nazi who is going to kill…certainly a moment of duress…and fear etc…and not knowing what to do …the person says a lie…a venial sin…which is then reduced in culpability due to the fear of death etc…it would be very reduced in my opinion… and of course God will be very merciful.

Again not saying it is ok to lie…rather that given weakness and the Nazis with the German lugers at the front door…it is understandable that such may happen…for not everyone is quick on their feet…and God who understands our weakness and what was going on will forgive quickly…

As the Church Teaches in the Catechism:

1754 The circumstances, including the consequences, are secondary elements of a moral act. They contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts (for example, the amount of a theft). They can also diminish or increase the agent’s responsibility (such as acting out of a fear of death). Circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.

 

[kage_ar]

Here, let me post it again, just in case it was missed: Yes, it can be OK to lie…for example, to save someone’s life. According to the CCC:

[CCC 2284]
The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

[CCC 2285]
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to now it.

[CCC 2492]
Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning people’s private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights…

None of these citations say that it is moral to lie.

A lie is always sin.

There is a huge difference betweening remaining silent - not revealing something - and lying.

You do understand the difference, right?

“Are there Jews hidden in your house”

“No” - this is a lie, this is a sin

“I shall not answer your question” - silence, this is the moral choice.

 

[Rascalking]

None of these citations say that it is moral to lie.

A lie is always sin.

There is a huge difference betweening remaining silent - not revealing something - and lying.

You do understand the difference, right?

“Are there Jews hidden in your house”

“No” - this is a lie, this is a sin

“I shall not answer your question” - silence, this is the moral choice.

The moral choice is to openly lie to someone who doesn’t have the right to know the truth-like the nazis.

I’ve asked before-does human life not mean much? I ask that seriously-not trying to make a joke or anything. By saying that the moral choice would be to tell the truth, it makes me think that one is de-valuing (is that a word? Jeez, I am a terrible englush major-yes, that’s a joke too! I know its spelled inglish. human life.

I think this is one of those controversial issues that is great fun to debate, actually.

 

[Rence]

The moral choice is to openly lie to someone who doesn’t have the right to know the truth-like the nazis.

I’ve asked before-does human life not mean much? I ask that seriously-not trying to make a joke or anything. By saying that the moral choice would be to tell the truth, it makes me think that one is de-valuing (is that a word? Jeez, I am a terrible englush major-yes, that’s a joke too! I know its spelled inglish. human life.

And you would be completely correct.

I think this is one of those controversial issues that is great fun to debate, actually.

**I don’t. It’s kinda scary to think some people misinterpret the CCC to the effect of causing real harm to others. Really scary actually. Relativity indeed. I’ll stick to the faith, values and morals I was raised to believe in. **

 

[kage_ar]

From the Catechism (bold added)

[2482](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2482.htm’) "A *lie *consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282
2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error. By injuring man’s relation to truth and to his neighbor, a lie offends against the fundamental relation of man and of his word to the Lord.
[2484](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2484.htm’) The gravity of a lie is measured against the nature of the truth it deforms, the circumstances, the intentions of the one who lies, and the harm suffered by its victims. If a lie in itself only constitutes a venial sin, it becomes mortal when it does grave injury to the virtues of justice and charity.
[2485](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2485.htm’) By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the intention of deceiving entails the risk of deadly consequences for those who are led astray.
[2486](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2486.htm’) Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships. [2487](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2487.htm’) Every offense committed against justice and truth entails the duty of reparation, even if its author has been forgiven. When it is impossible publicly to make reparation for a wrong, it must be made secretly. If someone who has suffered harm cannot be directly compensated, he must be given moral satisfaction in the name of charity. This duty of reparation also concerns offenses against another’s reputation. This reparation, moral and sometimes material, must be evaluated in terms of the extent of the damage inflicted. It obliges in conscience.

 

[Rence]

And it speaks for itself…and I stand by my original posts 100%

[CCC 2284]
The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

[CCC 2285]
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to now it.

[CCC 2492]
Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning people’s private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights…

 

[Rascalking]

Rence-

It should never be scary. It’s never personal-if someone takes it that way, than it shows bad on them. I always assume that the other person has good intnetions. 99% of the people on here are truly wonderful.

Except for the Kage_ar person…she’s pretty cagey. (she’s actually funny and a very nice person…a wonderful debate partner. Too bad she’s wrong about so much…)

 

[Rence]

Rence-
It should never be scary. It’s never personal-if someone takes it that way, than it shows bad on them. I always assume that the other person has good intnetions. 99% of the people on here are truly wonderful.

Yeah, I know you’re right. Hopefully, and with God’s Grace, people will make the right decisions, if heaven forbid, the time ever comes. I’m betting that you’re right and that most folks will do the right thing in their love for God

 

[hellopeople]

The late Fulton Sheen said “There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.”

home.inreach.com/bstanley/sheen.htm

Do you really dislike Catholicism or what you think Catholicism is?

Sancta Maria! Ora pro nobis.

I can’t say that I dislike Catholicism. My mother, father, grandmother, and grandfather are all (or were in the case of my grandparents) GREAT Catholics and I have (or had) tremendous respect for them. My mother is a great person and goes to church every day trying to be the best Catholic that she can be. My Grandfather is probably the person I want to emulate in my life, and to me he was the quintessential Catholic. When he retired, he picked up so many volunteer jobs that he basically was still working full time but for free (many of these jobs being for Catholic institutions or Catholic churches). In my opinion, the Catholic Church shaped these people’s lives so much that I could never truly dislike the church. But, to be honest, some of the people on these forums upset me and don’t mesh with my opinions of what morality should be…BUT they quote things from the Catechism proving their point. I don’t really know what to think…I have never met a priest that I did not admire and respect though and I feel that some Catholics on here are so rigid with how they follow the Church teachings that most Catholics don’t agree with them.

I just don’t know what to think anymore. I think I might have to stop going on these forums because certain people make me believe that I don’t like Catholicism.

 

[hellopeople]

None of these citations say that it is moral to lie.

A lie is always sin.

There is a huge difference betweening remaining silent - not revealing something - and lying.

You do understand the difference, right?

“Are there Jews hidden in your house”

“No” - this is a lie, this is a sin

“I shall not answer your question” - silence, this is the moral choice.

I don’t want to be confrontational or upsetting, but you in particular are one of the people that are driving me away from the church. I know that I am not alone either.

 

[Rence]

But, to be honest, some of the people on these forums upset me and don’t mesh with my opinions of what morality should be…BUT they quote things from the Catechism proving their point. I don’t really know what to think…I have never met a priest that I did not admire and respect though and I feel that some Catholics on here are so rigid with how they follow the Church teachings that most Catholics don’t agree with them.

I just don’t know what to think anymore. I think I might have to stop going on these forums because certain people make me believe that I don’t like Catholicism.

You love Catholicism Don’t let others convince you otherwise. I too had a hard time with a few members of the forum. It got to the point that I was doubting everything I learned throughout catechism, catholic grammar school, catholic high school, catholic college, and catholic university. I was even wondering if I wanted to be Catholic anymore, so repulsive were some of the lack of morals that were being labeled Truth. You know what I did? I wrote down a list of questions I had, and met face to face with our pastor. He went over each and every one and set my mind at ease. It was very liberating. I feel really good about it. Do you know how to use the ignore function? Just go to the profile tab up there, click on control panel, slide down to ignore list, and fill it up with those that caused you to doubt your faith. You won’t see any of those disturbing posts (well…not unless people quote the person in another post…but you won’t see many. Trust me it’s helpful ).

 

[Doc_Keele]

Rence - I had a very similar (identical actually) experience. People on Catholic fora said certain things which almost led me to leave the RCIA, and when I went to the priest he reassured me (and yes, he is very orthodox theologically). He told me to stop going on those fora in fact.

 

[SGHumanist]

I can’t say that I dislike Catholicism. I have never met a priest that I did not admire and respect though and I feel that some Catholics on here are so rigid with how they follow the Church teachings that most Catholics don’t agree with them.

I just don’t know what to think anymore. I think I might have to stop going on these forums because certain people make me believe that I don’t like Catholicism.

I find I am drawn to the same conclusion as you mentioned. We had this same discussion about lying when I attended a parochial high school, and the conclusion of the instructors confused me just as it does now. Lying is a sin, regardless, although if you were clever enough to rationalize or phrase your response you could technically avoid guilt. I did not understand it then, and I do not understand it now. It is not a sin to lie to save a life or to lie to care for the sick (Alzheimer’s example). But as several have mentioned there is an aggressive conservative bent to Catholicism (or maybe just this forum) and I find it repulsive.

I have been posting in the health care debate. With the gospel’s obsession about caring for the sick, I would have thought I would have received some support for my position in favor of reform (and I do not want to reargue the issue here) but regardless of my strict adherence to the exact words and specific philosophies of the gospels (I very much believe in the philosophy of the gospels) concerning care for the sick and poor, and the condemnation of the accumulation of wealth, I was almost unanimously attacked and condemned for wanting to care for the sick. The conservative bent of this forum could come directly out of the mouth of Limbaugh or Beck rather than the gospels.

It is not an enticing attitude for those of us who believe in the philosophy of the gospels, and wonder what Catholics are thinking.

 

[Bookcat]

Well, it’s worrying if you’re likely to fall for their nonsense because it tends to push people away from the Church. It also gives the Church a bad name. I was starting to hate the Church over some of the stupid things people were saying and She certainly wasn’t even responsible for the bad information. When it doubt, ask your priest. If it doesn’t sound right, or moral, please ask your priest

Here, let me post it again, just in case it was missed: Yes, it can be OK to lie…for example, to save someone’s life. According to the CCC:

[CCC 2284]
The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

[CCC 2285]
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to now it.

[CCC 2492]
Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning people’s private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights…

Rence,

These texts of the Catechism do not say it ok to lie. Rather that it is ok…that it can be good to be silent, or to use discrete language (one could argue a mental reservation of the moral sort) not that it ok to lie.

The Catechism is very clear that a lie is a sin.

CCC 2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.

In the case of the Nazi at the door…the person can make use of discrete language…or perhaps of a kind of moral mental reservation …

If they are weak and unable to do this…and lie…(and it is really a lie) the lie will be a venial sin…and due to the circumstances (fear of death etc) be greatly reduced in guilt…and God knowing our weakness will be ready to quickly forgive the person…

It is still a sin…and the good thing to do is the discrete language etc…but should we be weak…the mercy of God will quickly come to our aid…just as it does in so many other small sins of life which we commit on a daily basis …

This is not to say it is ok…it is not per se…but it is to say that we need in humility to recognize that such a situation is just …well crazy…and we know our weakness…and so does God in his love.

(Of course we need to really live the Christian life and seek to avoid all deliberate venial sins…not only mortal sins…etc…I am not of course saying you are saying we should not!..but rather that I am not saying that it is ok to sin…)

 

[Rascalking]

I don’t want to be confrontational or upsetting, but you in particular are one of the people that are driving me away from the church. I know that I am not alone either.

That was uncalled for. Not cool at all. Just because you disagree with someone doesn’t mean you should say something like this.

 

[kage_ar]

And it speaks for itself…and I stand by my original posts 100%

[CCC 2284]
The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.

[CCC 2285]
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet language. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to now it.

[CCC 2492]
Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning people’s private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights…

Not one of these says “lying is not a sin” or “lying is good” or “God blinks at lying” .

These all say to remain silent. Remaining silent is what I have said all along.

You really seem frightened of the truth.

 

[kage_ar]

I don’t want to be confrontational or upsetting, but you in particular are one of the people that are driving me away from the church. I know that I am not alone either.

Open your heart to the truth. As Scripture says, the truth will make you free.

 

[Rence]

Rence,
These texts of the Catechism do not say it ok to lie. Rather that it is ok…that it can be good to be silent, or to use discrete language (one could argue a mental reservation of the moral sort) not that it ok to lie.
The Catechism is very clear that a lie is a sin.
CCC 2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned.

In the case of the Nazi at the door…the person can make use of discrete language…or perhaps of a kind of moral mental reservation …

If they are weak and unable to do this…and lie…(and it is really a lie) the lie will be a venial sin…and due to the circumstances (fear of death etc) be greatly reduced in guilt…and God knowing our weakness will be ready to quickly forgive the person…

It is still a sin…and the good thing to do is the discrete language etc…but should we be weak…the mercy of God will quickly come to our aid…just as it does in so many other small sins of life which we commit on a daily basis …

This is not to say it is ok…it is not per se…but it is to say that we need in humility to recognize that such a situation is just …well crazy…and we know our weakness…and so does God in his love.

(Of course we need to really live the Christian life and seek to avoid all deliberate venial sins…not only mortal sins…etc…I am not of course saying you are saying we should not!..but rather that I am not saying that it is ok to sin…)

Bookcat, thanks for responding. I always appreciate people’s thoughts and opinions - especially when they’re not inappropriately damning me to Hell for my own thoughts and opinions It’s a nice way to get another perspective and to think things out.

I see what you’re saying, and I can see where you’re coming from. But I don’t agree with this interpretation, and I don’t see the difference between “lying” and “making use of discrete language”. Maybe a different word should be used for “lying” when “lying” is appropriate. If it would eliminate the difference of opinion and understanding, and reduce all the needless drama, I can change every “lie” in this and other threads to “use of discrete language”. So really, I think some are getting hung up on a word, and not looking at the meaning behind it. Furthermore there is no honor, or merit, in “being silent” when it results in getting yourself and/or others killed, especially your family or the people you are protecting. No merit or value whatsoever. One still has the responsibility to protect others. You can’t be “silent”, you will eventually have to say something.

And I don’t think it’s a sin at all, in any way, to (for example) lie (or use discreet language) to the Nazi’s regarding the whereabouts of a family of Jews. Does anyone (except the most scrupulous think that the man who hid Anne Frank and Co. for all that time in his upstairs attic was “sinning” by hiding his charges? Honestly, I don’t believe he even has the need to confess such “lies” or “use of discrete language” at all. In fact, if he would have chosen to “remain silent”, he would have been arrested, his family would have been arrested, his business would have been raided sooner, and those he was protecting would have been arrested. He would have been guilty, and would have had to answer for, all those people’s outcomes because he would have misinterpreted the message in the CCC, or rather his stubborness in his misinterpretation. But instead, he did a wonderful and good thing and tried to save as many lives as he could putting himself at risk. I see, looking at the whole picture, that he did not sin in his effort to help others and put himself at risk. He knew what was at stake and helped people anyway. He probably would have gotten away with it if his “friend” would not have turned him in. I would not reward his courage, kindness and goodness by accusing him of “lying”. But of course, we’re all entitled to our opininions. We are encouraged to use our conscience when reading the CCC, and we each have to do that for ourselves We certainly can’t expect to always agree with each other, or to be changed, or change others.

But again, thank you! It’s interesting to see the other side of things. And it’s even nicer to be able to discuss them without spitting venom, which I appreciate.