Is it ever wrong to cross ones self during the Mass?

[leeray]

Hello,
My Priest uses the Penitential Rite B during the Mass. While he is performing the Absolution most of us “daily-old-timers” cross ourselves. Today we were strongly
admonished to “Stop That”!, because it is pre-Vatican II. I really never knew there was ever a time where crossing myself was wrong. I would appreciate some clarity because it was a total shock - and he was so angry, is it offensive in some way. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Leeray

 

[Musician]

Wow, that’s weird…I cross myself every time at that point of the Mass. Have I been doing something wrong?

 

[Sancto_Spiritu]

Hello,
My Priest uses the Penitential Rite B during the Mass. While he is performing the Absolution most of us “daily-old-timers” cross ourselves. Today we were strongly
admonished to “Stop That”!, because it is pre-Vatican II. I really never knew there was ever a time where crossing myself was wrong. I would appreciate some clarity because it was a total shock - and he was so angry, is it offensive in some way. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Leeray

NO! DON’T STOP!

It is absolutely right and proper that you cross yourself at parts of the Mass.

Saying it’s “pre=Vatican II” is ridiculous and I think you should contact your bishop about this priest.

 

[Joannm]

Hello,
My Priest uses the Penitential Rite B during the Mass. While he is performing the Absolution most of us “daily-old-timers” cross ourselves. Today we were strongly
admonished to “Stop That”!, because it is pre-Vatican II. I really never knew there was ever a time where crossing myself was wrong. I would appreciate some clarity because it was a total shock - and he was so angry, is it offensive in some way. Any information will be greatly appreciated. Leeray

First of all, the preist is not performing an absolution. He is asking for God’s mercy and forgiveness, not granting it. Perhaps that is why the priest told you to stop making the sign of the cross, because people were confusing the penitential rite with an absolution.

 

[Feanor2]

First of all, the preist is not performing an absolution. He is asking for God’s mercy and forgiveness, not granting it. Perhaps that is why the priest told you to stop making the sign of the cross, because people were confusing the penitential rite with an absolution.

Aren’t your venial sins forgiven at this point? I could be totally wrong- I just thought that for some reason.

 

[Joannm]

Aren’t your venial sins forgiven at this point? I could be totally wrong- I just thought that for some reason.

Venial sins are forgiven in a number of ways. Receiving communion forgives venial sins. I was taught that the Penitential Rite prepares us to receive pardon by praising God for His love and mercy. It is an admission that we are sinners and in need of pardon.

 

[JMJ_coder]

First of all, the preist is not performing an absolution. He is asking for God’s mercy and forgiveness, not granting it. Perhaps that is why the priest told you to stop making the sign of the cross, because people were confusing the penitential rite with an absolution.

This is inaccurate. From the GIRM:

1. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance.

On Sundays, especially in the Season of Easter, in place of the customary Act of Penitence, from time to time the blessing and sprinkling of water to recall Baptism may take place.

 

[Joannm]

This is inaccurate. From the GIRM:

The GIRM also states it does not have the efficacy of the sacrament of penance. A priest cannot absolve himself and in the prayer he uses the word “us” which would include himself, not “you”. Notice he does not hold his hands in the posture for giving absolution nor does he make a gesture of blessing. While it may be called a prayer of absolution in the GIRM it isn’t the same as in the sacrament. SInce it is not a blessing there is no need to bless oneself, in fact it is not called for in the GIRM or rubrics. I guess people could do it if they want, but then you could also say they could hold hands if they want during the Lord’s Prayer. Part of the argument against holding hands is that it is not in the rubrics, well neither is crossing oneself at the Penitential Rite. Another problem is that some priests do hold their hands as if giving a sacramental absolution which also confuses people. That is probably why the priest is telling his congregation not to do it.

 

[JMJ_coder]

The GIRM also states it does not have the efficacy of the sacrament of penance. A priest cannot absolve himself and in the prayer he uses the word “us” which would include himself, not “you”. Notice he does not hold his hands in the posture for giving absolution nor does he make a gesture of blessing. While it may be called a prayer of absolution in the GIRM it isn’t the same as in the sacrament. SInce it is not a blessing there is no need to bless oneself, in fact it is not called for in the GIRM or rubrics. I guess people could do it if they want, but then you could also say they could hold hands if they want during the Lord’s Prayer. Part of the argument against holding hands is that it is not in the rubrics, well neither is crossing oneself at the Penitential Rite. Another problem is that some priests do hold their hands as if giving a sacramental absolution which also confuses people. That is probably why the priest is telling his congregation not to do it.

Of course it is not the same as the Sacrament (no one said otherwise), but it is an absolution (which is the point being made).

 

[japhy]

Neither the GIRM nor the Roman Missal says that the priest or the people make the Sign of the Cross during the “absolution” at the end of the Penitential Act. In the Extraordinary Form, the priest and the people do make the Sign of the Cross, but it is during a different prayer.

In the Ordinary Form, the priest’s “absolution” is: “May Almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and lead us to everlasting life.”

In the Extraordinary Form, the priest first says “May Almighty God have mercy upon you, forgive you your sins and bring you to life everlasting.” Then he says “May the Almighty and merciful God grant us pardon +, absolution, and remission of our sins.” He makes the Sign of the Cross at the “+”, and the people do too.

In the Ordinary Form, you can see that only one of those two prayers is retained, and it’s not the one associated with absolution in the Extraordinary Form. Nor is there a Sign of the Cross with it. The Ordinary Form calls the priest’s prayer an absolution, and I’m not one to argue with them, but there is not a Sign of the Cross associated with this prayer. As such, I don’t make one at this time, and I wouldn’t instruct anyone to do so.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And that is probably why the people making the sign did it, from remembrance of making a sign of the cross in the EF during that time.

OTOH, and hopefully not to stir up a hornet’s nest, if people can insert hand-holding into the Our Father, lift up hands in the Orans prayer all through the Mass (it used to be I’d only see it during the Our Father, but now I’m seeing some people do it every time they respond!), etc., which are post-Vatican 2 gestures not mandated in the rubrics, then either the priest should insist that** nobody** do any gestures that are not called for (pre Vatican 2 or post Vatican 2), or if he permits ‘post Vatican 2’ gestures then he should permit pre-Vatican 2 gestures. If he’s going for uniformity of posture/gesture, that’s one thing, but he needs to be consistent. Either he gets rid of **all **non-mandated gestures or he should get rid of **none **of them, IMHO. To single out a gesture and dismiss it as “pre Vatican 2” concerns me. Now if he’d said, “Ladies, I appreciate your gesture but it is not called for in the rubrics and in order to foster unity we are going to have only mandated approved postures and gestures from now on”, that would be a little different. . .

 

[puzzleannie]

we have been instructed in at least 3 different parishes over the last 15 years or so to do exactly as OP describes, cross ourselves during this penitential rite. we have heard people scolded from the pulpit for striking the breast during the Confiteor or the Lord I am not worty.

However it does not bother me because I have received so much contradictory instruction from the pulpit over the years, we now just go with the flow whichever parish we end up. It reminds me of that old girl scout song, when you’re up you’re up and when you’re down you’re down etc. Hold hands, don’t hold hands raise them in the air, don’t raise them in the air hold them at chest level facing out, no facing in. Whatever.

Kneel. Stand, Sit, genuflect, don’t genuflect. What. Ever.

the laity don’t make this stuff up. any time you see someone in the pews doing something weird, unless they are mentally challenged, you can bet some priest, some time, somewhere, instructed them to do it.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Annie, it sounds like you’re doing the Hokey pokey!

 

[puzzleannie]

Annie, it sounds like you’re doing the Hokey pokey!

that would be our last parish but one, if you have arthritis, forget it

 

[ac_claire]

I have crossed myself at the end of the Penitential rite before, not even really thinking about why I was doing it.

Now that I think about it, it might be because the bit the priest says at the end: "May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life." has a similar cadance to the blessing given at the end of Mass: “May almighty God bless you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” I always cross myself during the final blessing, so that’s probably why I find myself doing it sometimes at the end of the Penitential rite as well.

In any case, it seems like a really odd thing for a priest to publically chastise his congregation for. And why, for pete’s sake, would he bring Vatican II into it?

 

[JimG]

In my 1961 missal, there are two recitations of the Confiteor, first by the priest, then by the servers.
After the priest recites his Confiteor, the servers respond: "May Almighty God have mercy upon you, forgive you your sins, and bring you to everlasting life.

Priest: Amen

The servers then recite the Confiteor on behalf of the people, followed by:

Priest: May Almighty God have mercy upon you, forgive you your sins, and bring you to everlasting life.
Servers: Amen

Priest: May the almighty and merciful Lord grant us pardon, absolution, and remission of our sins. +
Servers: Amen

During that part marked by the + the priest made the sign of the cross.

At that time most people did not cross themselves along with the priest. But a few who knew the rubrics and were following closely, did make the sign of the cross.

During the revision of the Liturgy, the penitential rite was shortened, with only one Confiteor, not two, and only one prayer for pardon, not two plus the priest’s final prayer for remission of sins accompanied by the sign of the cross.

Ironically, it was just at the time that the rite was shortened and the sign of the cross deleted, the people started doing it!

But it’s all OK with me.

 

[japhy]

we have heard people scolded from the pulpit for striking the breast during the Confiteor or the Lord I am not worty.

The first is in the rubrics, the second is not. But “scolding from the pulpit” is never the pastoral way to address these issues. Apparently, the post-Vatican II definition of “pastoral” excludes charity to people who do things the “old” way.

 

[Langdell]

… However it does not bother me because I have received so much contradictory instruction from the pulpit over the years, we now just go with the flow whichever parish we end up. It reminds me of that old girl scout song, when you’re up you’re up and when you’re down you’re down etc. Hold hands, don’t hold hands raise them in the air, don’t raise them in the air hold them at chest level facing out, no facing in. Whatever.

Kneel. Stand, Sit, genuflect, don’t genuflect. What. Ever. …

Seriously, it’s hard for me to think of a situation in which it wouldn’t be OK to cross myself. (Assuming I’m in the proper frame of mind, of course.)
.

 

[joshua1]

Did not Jesus prophesy well about us when he said we swallow camels and choke on gnats!

 

[Lujack]

The first is in the rubrics, the second is not. But “scolding from the pulpit” is never the pastoral way to address these issues. Apparently, the post-Vatican II definition of “pastoral” excludes charity to people who do things the “old” way.

No, scolding from the pulpit is not. However, a correction or an explanation in a homily is not necessarily a bad thing; a charitable explanation that this is a different prayer than the old one, what the differences are, and why they are different would actually be very interesting.