Is it hard or easy to get to hell?

[mlchance]

Mark, respectfully, that example does not make sense.

Reflect longer.

God is the totality and the fullness of Truth. Are you saying that His Chuch lacks either?

Since the Church isn’t God, that ought not be such a surprising proposition. Yes, the Church lacks the totality of truth.

In other words:

Everything the church teaches is TRUE. But the church doesn’t know everything.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[expectthebest]

Reflect longer.

I have. I understand your point. But with all due respect, the analogy is poor. I do appreciate your answers though.

 

[expectthebest]

Lets be clear:
Everything the church teaches is TRUE. But the church doesn’t know everything.

For instance,
it knows that there are 3 persons in one God but doesn’t know how that works exactly. This is a mystery.

It also knows that man has free will and that God has a plan but it doesn’t know exactly how God’s plan incorporates man’s free will without minimizing either the free will or God’s soveriegnty.

It doesn’t really know what heaven is like: other than full of joy and peace

it doesn’t really understand the nature of purgatory, other than the fact that sins are purged there and that pray can reduce the amount of purification required.

It doesn’t know the true nature of hell, other than its described as a fiery place and it has the pain of being separated from God.

It can know that some are in heaven through the miracles they do on earth, but it can’t be sure of the placement of those without obvious miracles.

So, what you are saying is that God lets us know what He wants us to know through the Church. If the Church doesn’t know the answer, God doesn’t want us to know the answer. Is this correct?

 

[mlchance]

I have. I understand your point. But with all due respect, the analogy is poor.

As are all analogies, especially those used in theology.

I do appreciate your answers though.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[rpp]

Can one have fullness of truth without totality of truth?

Yes, a person can know enough without knowing everything. There are many mysteries surrounding God; things we cannot understand or even comprehend. I mean, can you understand what the total impact of being omnipotent really is? Or being eternal and existing outside of time?

So while the Catholic has the fullness of truth, that is everything we need to know to enjoy eternal union with God, it does not, nor cannot, know all the truths associated with God.

Perhaps another example that would help would be choosing something to eat. You know that you enjoy a particular restaurant. You go there often and are throughly familiar with the menu, but do you know all of the details that go into putting that plate of food and drink in front of you and how your body processes all the food to keep you alive? Probably not, but you do know how to enjoy the meal and that you will probably be asked to pay for it.

 

[paul_c]

So, what you are saying is that God lets us know what He wants us to know through the Church. If the Church doesn’t know the answer, God doesn’t want us to know the answer. Is this correct?

You could put it that way but consider the fact that man is a limited creature and there are things that are just beyond our capability to understand.

Think about this as well. Do you really think the church is omniscient, meaning it knows everything God knows? Clearly this can not be the case. All of humanity together doesn’t have that capability. Can you accept that?

 

[cerad]

You must be kidding, really. Would anyone believe a list on the internet? Any good website designer could fake one. That really would be for the gullible.

People will be believe in they are predisposed to do so. Some believe in nothing other than themselves…

So you are saying that God couldn’t design and implement a website that would make it clear that God himself was the site master? Maybe he needs to go back to school and brush up on a few things.

 

[paul_c]

So you are saying that God couldn’t design and implement a website that would make it clear that God himself was the site master? Maybe he needs to go back to school and brush up on a few things.

There is ample proof in the universe around us to show that God exists and to identify his basic attributes. These have been discussed for 2000+ years. If you won’t believe these, neither would you believe in an impressive website. How could a website compare in impressiveness to the real world around us?

 

[mvh18]

Pretty hard, I’ve heard you need at least an A- in microbiology.

 

[expectthebest]

You could put it that way but consider the fact that man is a limited creature and there are things that are just beyond our capability to understand.

Think about this as well. Do you really think the church is omniscient, meaning it knows everything God knows? Clearly this can not be the case. All of humanity together doesn’t have that capability. Can you accept that?

Yes, I can and do accept that. It does concern me that the Church does not know the answer to many things like what happens to the unbaptized babies when it does have the answer to many lesser important things like the Immaculate Conseption. Baptism goes straight to a persons salvation while the other does not. It disapoints me that the Church does not have better answers on Salvic matter.

You could put it that way but consider the fact that man is a limited creature and there are things that are just beyond our capability to understand.

Yes, we are very limited creatures when compared to God. If fact, one might say we are infinitely limited when compared to God. Which makes me wonder how we can so easily be damned with a pain and eternity that we, as limited creatures, can’t possibly understand while on this earth.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, I can and do accept that. It does concern me that the Church does not know the answer to many things like what happens to the unbaptized babies when it does have the answer to many lesser important things like the Immaculate Conseption. Baptism goes straight to a persons salvation while the other does not. It disapoints me that the Church does not have better answers on Salvic matter.

Well, I’m not sure we really NEED to know what happens to unbaptized babies. Its in the very capable hands of God and we should trust in his wisdom and mercy. On the other hand, if that baby is ours, it certainly is in their best interests to get them baptized into the faith as soon as possible so that they can be guaranteed sanctifying grace.

As for the importance of the Immaculate Conception, its important for our knowledge of who Mary is and what graces applied to her. And as a little sidelight, the knowledge of it was what proved to the world that Bernadette Soubirous really saw Mary at Lourdes.

Yes, we are very limited creatures when compared to God. If fact, one might say we are infinitely limited when compared to God. Which makes me wonder how we can so easily be damned with a pain and eternity that we, as limited creatures, can’t possibly understand while on this earth.

Well, you are not the only one that has trouble being held eternally accountable for our actions. That accountability is at the very heart of the Protestant Reformation, with the reformers offering a sotierology of Faith alone, that resulted in no accountability on the part of the Faithful for anything other than one instant of announcing a belief in Christ. Nevertheless, even on earth, we see harsh penalties for our wrongs, even to the point of the death penalty (even to those that don’t believe in it). The main difference is that justice on Earth can be random, while in heaven it will be perfect. We need to trust in God’s grace and work toward holiness every day of our lives… And when we fail, we still have the opportunity to repent and be reconciled through the sacrament of reconciliation. If we are diligent, there is no reason we can not be saved… If we become complacent, then we face real danger…

 

[LilyM]

As for the importance of the Immaculate Conception, its important for our knowledge of who Mary is and what graces applied to her.

Such knowledge is not just important in and of itself, though.

The Marian dogmas are also important to our knowledge of Christ - it is an extension of our understanding that Jesus was and is, before during and after His incarnation, eternally God-man. As such, He prepared a worthy vessel for Himself by enabling Mary to be sinless from the instant of her conception to the end of her life.

And it’s important for US to know, through the dogma, that humanity is not a bar to holiness. We learn that Jesus was human and yet without sin, and dismiss it with ‘yeah, but He was divine’. Then we learn that Mary, too, was without sin - that God was willing to grant her the grace to be so - and yet entirely human as we are. It gives us reason to ask for the grace, and to hope and strive for the sinlessness, that she possessed.

 

[paul_c]

Such knowledge is not just important in and of itself, though.

The Marian dogmas are also important to our knowledge of Christ - it is an extension of our understanding that Jesus was and is, before during and after His incarnation, eternally God-man. As such, He prepared a worthy vessel for Himself by enabling Mary to be sinless from the instant of her conception to the end of her life.

And it’s important for US to know, through the dogma, that humanity is not a bar to holiness. We learn that Jesus was human and yet without sin, and dismiss it with ‘yeah, but He was divine’. Then we learn that Mary, too, was without sin - that God was willing to grant her the grace to be so - and yet entirely human as we are. It gives us reason to ask for the grace, and to hope and strive for the sinlessness, that she possessed.

All good points. Thanks for the clarification

 

[expectthebest]

Well, I’m not sure we really NEED to know what happens to unbaptized babies. Its in the very capable hands of God and we should trust in his wisdom and mercy. On the other hand, if that baby is ours, it certainly is in their best interests to get them baptized into the faith as soon as possible so that they can be guaranteed sanctifying grace.

I think we do. If the Church believes this is vitally important to Salvation, why is it not the Tradition for a baby to be Baptized as soon as it comes into the world? When it comes to Salvation, shouldn’t every second count? But, this is not the Tradition. So, the question must be asked, how important is it?

Well, you are not the only one that has trouble being held eternally accountable for our actions. That accountability is at the very heart of the Protestant Reformation, with the reformers offering a sotierology of Faith alone, that resulted in no accountability on the part of the Faithful for anything other than one instant of announcing a belief in Christ.

I think our Lutheran friends would disagree that they do not believe in accountability.

 

[PJM]

=06convert;4786681]A strange question I know, but the more I learn about the things that put us at risk of going to hell, the more it seems to me like it’s difficult for the average person to get there.

Nope! It has to do with understanding the very Nature of God, who (get this now) who is and must be everything GOOD!

So is Justice Good? Of course it is. And that my friend, is either “the hammer,” or “the soft pillow.”

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions:blush:

We can fool others

We can even fool ourselves,

But we can’t fool GOD

Underlying the whole discussion is the fact that we have no idea what God’s mercy will allow or not allow to take place after we die, however:

Only and everything that conforms to His Divine (objective and true) Justice.

I have read time and time again that if one sins, or turns his back against God, or doesn’t believe in Christ (ie. Jewish) through no fault of his own, meaning he didn’t have a real chance at learning the truth and didn’t willingly deny the truth after learning it, then he may very well still get to heaven because of God’s mercy and the concept that we can’t be held accountable for the things we don’t know.

This is a very profound, and potentially compleciated question.

Not knowing, and NOT having a REAL (from God’s perspective of Justice) opportunity to know or ACCESS (key word) the truth is what God will Judge.

two essential points:

1.    God died to Redeem us **ALL**

, meaning that He unlocked the gates of Heaven and access becomes POSSIBLE to every human person, past, present and future.

       But Redeemption and salvation, are as far apart in meaning and effect, as the East is from the West.

       Redemption is a given, while salvation HAS TO BE earned

through “good works” which God credits to us as a free gift, because of the MErits of the Death of Jesus.

2.    God desires that all will be saved, by Jesus acknowledged that it just was not going to happen.  

      "Keep My Commandments," Take up your Cross amd follow Me," "Many are called but few are Chosen." are just a few examples.

      The most signifiant element in God's Divine Justice, is that God has to, yes, God has to, give everyone sufficient grace to cooperate with His plan for our salvation. But it is a Narrow gate!

       So it's not did I, BUT also COULD I HAVE! That my friend is Divine Justice.

So to me. This sounds like the average secular person that isn’t baptised, lives a life of premaritial relations, likes to go out and party and live without feeling regret or consequence. May get to heaven without any effort if he was completely ignorant to what he was doing?

Nearly impossible to live in any modern country, USA, Euorpe, Spain, Cuba Ect… and not have an opportunity to know God on SOME personal level. Impossible!

So to answer your OP question: Not only is it easy it’s a “he… (heck)” of alot of fun, and that is where a great many will end up. God MUST BE JUST.

Meanwhile someone else that has a well formed conscience, knows the truth about God and His plan for us. Lives a holy life for the most part. Commits 1 mortal sin, dies instantly and may not get to heaven

, because he was held to such a high standard?

Die in Mortal sin = hell…period, end of discussion!

But if one is in a good personal relationship with God, good prayer life, living a Sacramental life and blows it. God still has to and will be Just. He will give such a person an opportunity to be saved. That too is Divine Justice

Our God, is an AWESOME GOD!

I

nteresting to think about…

I’m not saying there is any assurance in salvation, but interesting to ponder…

In a way, there is assurence of salvation if, if we are open to and accepting of Gods graces. He will not abandon us, if we don’t abandon Him. But it all has to do with the Merits Jesus has earned for us.

“Faith leads to Hope, and Hope leads to Love.” And Love, will lead us to heaven.

Peace, joy and love,

 

[expectthebest]

You could put it that way but consider the fact that man is a limited creature and there are things that are just beyond our capability to understand.

Is the eternity of hell and the eteranl pain and suffering that does with it something we as limited creatures have the capability to really understand?

 

[davidv]

Is the eternity of hell and the eteranl pain and suffering that does with it something we as limited creatures have the capability to really understand?

I believe that however limited we are, we can understand heaven and hell well enough to know which one we are choosing.

 

[expectthebest]

I believe that however limited we are, we can understand heaven and hell well enough to know which one we are choosing.

Is that official Church teaching? Or, are we ever given a true understanding, say right before death when the decision is utltimately taken?

 

[LilyM]

Is that official Church teaching? Or, are we ever given a true understanding, say right before death when the decision is utltimately taken?

St Paul said that perfect knowledge, ‘knowing even as we are known’, is reserved for heaven, and that whilever we are on earth we see ‘through a dark glass’. So even if we ARE given extra understanding right before death (which might be, say, in the case of young children or something), we aren’t given PERFECT knowledge this side of the grave.

 

[PJM]

Is that official Church teaching? Or, are we ever given a true understanding, say right before death when the decision is utltimately taken?

Reply: Davidv

Perhaps this will help you?

Davids reply reflects Church teaching but it goes beyond his reply.

As soon as we die, we will instantly Judged by God.

We will know two things:

1.    Where we are going to spend eternity! Heaven (now or later after Prugatory.

2.    And that we will, or will not be in the presence of God.

       The Church teaches that it is precisely this knowledge that make hell; HELL! And heaven, HEAVEN!

        Those of us in need of purification endure the same tortures as those in Hell, EXCEPT, will know that it is temporary, and that they too will be in the presence of God.

         Everyone who sent themselves to Hell, will instantly know that God does exist, God is in charge, and agree with God that they had the opportunity NOT TO SEND THEMSELVES to Hell:blush: :thumbsup: