Is it infallibly true that some drugs should be illegal?

[Bill_7154]

“for rulers are servants of God,”

Do you really believe this? That in the hearts and minds of those in positions of power in government that they wake up each morning with the primary intention of ‘being servants of God’ and throughout the day they conduct themself as such?

I certainly do not believe this at all about politicians. And as such, I question their true motives. I consider them more self serving than serving of citizens. I would also consider them (as a lot) more influenced by the devil than the overall population at large.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[CopticChristian]

“for rulers are servants of God,”

Do you really believe this? That in the hearts and minds of those in positions of power in government that they wake up each morning with the primary intention of ‘being servants of God’ and throughout the day they conduct themself as such?

I certainly do not believe this at all about politicians. And as such, I question their true motives. I consider them more self serving than serving of citizens. I would also consider them (as a lot) more influenced by the devil than the overall population at large.

God Bless,
Bill

Bill,

We as Catholics believe that all baptized in the Trinity are part of the Church whether they believe it or not and we treat and respect them as such. What they think and believe has nothing to do with how we view them.

We as Catholics believe that all authority is God given. Rulers may not understand where there authority comes from, may not realize that there authority is from God and they are servants of God, yet we treat them as if they were. What they realize has nothing to do with how we view them.

Imagine Paul in his day with the government he had to contend with writing this. Do you believe that he understood your objection? Yet Paul writes what was true then and is true now. While you may not agree with the rulers, if you acknowledge them as servants of God.then things go well…oppose them, break the law and see how that goes.

We in this country do have the privelege and right to change those laws and that is truly a gift.

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill,

We in this country do have the privelege and right to change those laws and that is truly a gift.

You mean the suggestion box where we get to slip a piece of paper with a name on it (where the names were all selected in advance by extremely rich people) once every 4 years?

I don’t trust politicians to follow God’s laws or the teachings of Jesus Christ. I think I am smart enough to figure out what is good and what is evil without some nitwit in Washington DC telling me what is good and what is bad.

There are also many examples of laws that were changed. Were they moral and in accordance to the wishes of God and Jesus one day and then immoral and not in accordance with the wishes and teachings of God and Jesus the next day? This makes no sense to me. If it makes sense to you please explain.

I recognize that all power comes from God…but rapture is coming as well, is it not?
I put my trust and faith and God and in Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. This does not mean I’m some idiot running around breaking random laws for the heck of it. I have common sense and the ability to recognize the difference between right and wrong. I have learned this from Jesus teachings for the most part, I certainly didn’t learn it from my parents (if you know my history you will understand why).

I simply recognize that all men are fallible while God and Jesus are not. What did Jesus have to say about the rich man giving up his wealth to follow him in order to be saved and to get into heaven? What is Jesus’ teachings with respect to rich people and how they should behave toward their fellow man? The reason I ask is becaue I have never heard of a ‘poor’ politician who held a position of high status in government.

It would be helpful if you answered those questions for me.

Thanks and God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

And these politicians you speak of, these are the same people who turned me into a criminal for getting marijuana for my grandmother who was terminally ill with cancer in the 80’s after her doctor recommended she smoked it to treat the neusea caused by the chemo that was also killing her. I’m sure Jesus and God are up in Heaven waiting to give me a good scolding for that illegal behavior of mine…

 

[TimeEntrance]

Time,

Your understanding of medicine is remedial. Homeopaths believe in and practice with the notion of Placebo. All Physicians including myself know about Placebo. You appear not to understand.

That had nothing to do with what I said.

I actually think that Shamans have a place for some people however your understanding of the practice of medicine causes me to ask you again to listen to Michael Jackson and the man in the mirror.

And? So does astrology (which can make accurate predictions; and scientific hypotheses and theories - and the science of medicine - can and have been wrong before). Again: nothing to with what I said.

 

[Bill_7154]

And for all the reasons one might be considered a ‘bad Catholic’ I’m OK with being considered a bad Catholic by others for not respecting or trusting government. I got my lessons in childhood, taking care of my dying grandmother…the type of things I should and shouldn’t do in order to ‘respect’ government.

I choose to break the law to try and lessen a sick and dying old ladies pain just a little bit, making her last weeks and few months on this planet a little less torturous. I’m not asking anyone here for forgiveness for not saluting the flag because I made the choices I made.

Men make mistakes. Men in power who make mistakes have the unfortunate ability to hurt thousands or tens of thousands of people with the mistakes they make (i.e. government people).

I think my relationship with God and Jesus are OK and think they both love me even if I do not respect government simply because they are government.

This also leads me to wonder… how do people feel about government employees who favor abortion or pro choice or whatever? Do you honor them as appointed by God to be one of your rulers?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[TimeEntrance]

You think that all people started as alcoholics and that some groups of people developed a resistance to it? Really? Is that really what you are saying?

That’s not what I said. I said I hypothesize that over the course of many thousands of years some populations of humans have passed on genetic traits that enable many (not all) people within their populations to better resist (making the person less susceptible to) alcoholism.

Or maybe it might help to understand what I mean by thinking of one hypothesis about the existence homosexuality by basically suggesting rather than genes for homosexuality, homosexuals did not inherit a certain gene or genes that would have otherwise made them heterosexual.

But like I said… if I believe alcoholism is not genetically heritable I have to account for why there is such a higher rate of alcoholism within certain populations (of the same ancestry) of humans.

A hypothesis is just a conjecture - and one that has to be falsifiable (able to be proven false). So, this is just a conjecture of mine.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Nate,

I muse at the hmmm…ask yourself the question…

Disease

What kind of disease is this addiction disease…

The answer

A Spiritual Disease

A what? Yup that is what is touted…A Spiritual Disease…

Most addicts say that addiction attacks them physically, mentally, and spiritually.

You are saying nothing revolutionary. And I doubt you could successfully debate against addicts in AA, NA, and CA about their physical, mental, and spiritual struggles with addictions.

 

[CopticChristian]

You mean the suggestion box where we get to slip a piece of paper with a name on it (where the names were all selected in advance by extremely rich people) once every 4 years?

I don’t trust politicians to follow God’s laws or the teachings of Jesus Christ. I think I am smart enough to figure out what is good and what is evil without some nitwit in Washington DC telling me what is good and what is bad.

There are also many examples of laws that were changed. Were they moral and in accordance to the wishes of God and Jesus one day and then immoral and not in accordance with the wishes and teachings of God and Jesus the next day? This makes no sense to me. If it makes sense to you please explain.

I recognize that all power comes from God…but rapture is coming as well, is it not?
I put my trust and faith and God and in Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior. This does not mean I’m some idiot running around breaking random laws for the heck of it. I have common sense and the ability to recognize the difference between right and wrong. I have learned this from Jesus teachings for the most part, I certainly didn’t learn it from my parents (if you know my history you will understand why).

I simply recognize that all men are fallible while God and Jesus are not. What did Jesus have to say about the rich man giving up his wealth to follow him in order to be saved and to get into heaven? What is Jesus’ teachings with respect to rich people and how they should behave toward their fellow man? The reason I ask is becaue I have never heard of a ‘poor’ politician who held a position of high status in government.

It would be helpful if you answered those questions for me.

Thanks and God Bless,
Bill

Bill,

Provide a simple question and I will answer to the best of my ability.

 

[CopticChristian]

And these politicians you speak of, these are the same people who turned me into a criminal for getting marijuana for my grandmother who was terminally ill with cancer in the 80’s after her doctor recommended she smoked it to treat the neusea caused by the chemo that was also killing her. I’m sure Jesus and God are up in Heaven waiting to give me a good scolding for that illegal behavior of mine…

Bill,

The issue of medical marijuana is a hot potato. There is an inherent risk associated with it’s use. While the States are allowing it, you know, that the Federal law trumps State law and this is as a result of the Harrison act. I don’t agree with prosecution for medical marijuana but knowing that it can be a legal problem this would dissuade me from engaging in the medical use. It is just too risky.

 

[CopticChristian]

Most addicts say that addiction attacks them physically, mentally, and spiritually.

You are saying nothing revolutionary. And I doubt you could successfully debate against addicts in AA, NA, and CA about their physical, mental, and spiritual struggles with addictions.

Time,

Where do you get the idea I want to debate someone’s struggles.? I would debate the choices made in those struggles. If there is a spiritual component then is Jesus not enough within the Church as Jesus Christ the bearer of the water of life says…

addiction and recovery have replaced sin and salvation…

and when you look at this…step 6…

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

What is a defect of Character?..well if you read the Big Book…you will never know until you read the 12 and twelve…the companion…and lo and behold…

recoverytable.blogspot.com/2011/06/character-defects-seven-deadly-sins.html

As at best an agnostic by natural temperament, I was taken aback (as I suppose many others were) when I first read the characterization of my defects of character as “sins” in Step Four of The Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions. Not surprisingly, of course, my objection was one that had been anticipated by Bill W.

So if the defects of Character that you attend any of the "A’s " for is sin, and you do these steps to remove sins…why not become Protestant and say the sinners prayer and accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior…what happened to the Sacrament of Penance?

And if you attend AA, NA and CA as many of these “addicts” do…and with each program they had a spiritual awakening…then how many spiritual awakenings do you need? Was one not enough…the steps are the same…I would debate that.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Time,

Contrast your hypothesis with the following facts…from The Truth About Addiction…Drinking is a social cultural phenomenon…learned behavior…

You are an odd sort of doctor (here I take a leap of faith and give you the benefit of the doubt that you’ve earned a medical degree and practice medicine). If you want to provide evidence or proof that AA is a religion you don’t cite sources from social scientists, you cite the opinions of one or more U.S. Supreme Court Justices.

If you have a problem with my hypothesis you cite some source referencing a sociologist rather than citing a citing a scientific paper authored by a team of geneticists (or a team of researchers led by a geneticist).

Not that I have a problem with sociologist, officers of the court, or even with the staunch belief AA, NA, and CA are religions (they are very cult like - just like the Catholic Church and the Democratic and Republican Parties concerning their monopoly on truth and salvation). But I’m just trying to imagine the look on my biology TA’s face if I handed in to her a scientific biology paper citing a sociologist rather than a geneticists or some scientist in the natural sciences concerning genotypes and resulting phenotypes. :ehh: :dts:

1. W. R. Miller and R. K. Hester, “The Effectiveness of Alcoholism Treatment: What Research Reveals,” in W. R. Miller and N. K. Heather, eds., Treating Addictive Behaviors: Processes of Change (New York: Plenum, 1986), pp. 121–74.

1. G. E. Vaillant, The Natural History of Alcoholism: Causes, Patterns, and Paths to Recovery (Cambridge,Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1983).

1. Ibid., p. 293.

According to a sociologist who studied the drinking of Chinese Americans in New York:

They [Chinese Americans] drink and become intoxicated, yet for the most part drinking to intoxication is not habitual, dependence on alcohol is uncommon and alcoholism is a rarity. . . . The children drank, and they soon learned a set of attitudes that attended the practice. While drinking was socially sanctioned, becoming drunk was not. The individual who lost control of himself under the influence of liquor was ridiculed and, if he persisted in his defection, ostracized.14

Now, I’m not a scientist, not even a graduate student in a science, but even I know that facts are all good and great, but facts do not tell a whole story. One of my biology professors actually pointed this out in a lecture. Because science utilizes facts a lot. Maybe utilize is the key word.

Or we might think of it analogous to criminology and a crime scene with biological and material evidence collected and several eye witnesses with different versions of events. There certainly are a lot of facts collected in the evidence. Exactly what happened and if the person accused and arrested is actually guilty (real guilt) or innocent (criminal guilt vs real guilt) is another matter.

So, yes, I would concur alcoholism requires behavior and alcohol, or what you (slightly incorrectly) called learned behavior.

Yet… the biology student in me asks how that contradicted what I said in my hypothesis?

And mind you… I have no problem with my hypothesis - or conjecture - being wrong if in fact it is wrong.

And by the way… even though I’m half black I do not have sickle cell and in fact most black people I know don’t have sickle cell. That does not negate the genetic heritability of sickle cell that runs through certain populations (black people). Similarly, one should not expect all Amerindians to be alcoholics.

Jeez.

 

[CopticChristian]

You are an odd sort of doctor (here I take a leap of faith and give you the benefit of the doubt that you’ve earned a medical degree and practice medicine). If you want to provide evidence or proof that AA is a religion you don’t cite sources from social scientists, you cite the opinions of one or more U.S. Supreme Court Justices.

If you have a problem with my hypothesis you cite some source referencing a sociologist rather than citing a citing a scientific paper authored by a team of geneticists (or a team of researchers led by a geneticist).

Not that I have a problem with sociologist, officers of the court, or even with the staunch belief AA, NA, and CA are religions (they are very cult like - just like the Catholic Church and the Democratic and Republican Parties concerning their monopoly on truth and salvation). But I’m just trying to imagine the look on my biology TA’s face if I handed in to her a scientific biology paper citing a sociologist rather than a geneticists or some scientist in the natural sciences concerning genotypes and resulting phenotypes. :ehh: :dts:

Now, I’m not a scientist, not even a graduate student in a science, but even I know that facts are all good and great, but facts do not tell a whole story. One of my biology professors actually pointed this out in a lecture. Because science utilizes facts a lot. Maybe utilize is the key word.

Or we might think of it analogous to criminology and a crime scene with biological and material evidence collected and several eye witnesses with different versions of events. There certainly are a lot of facts collected in the evidence. Exactly what happened and if the person accused and arrested is actually guilty (real guilt) or innocent (criminal guilt vs real guilt) is another matter.

So, yes, I would concur alcoholism requires behavior and alcohol, or what you (slightly incorrectly) called learned behavior.

Yet… the biology student in me asks how that contradicted what I said in my hypothesis?

And mind you… I have no problem with my hypothesis - or conjecture - being wrong if in fact it is wrong.

And by the way… even though I’m half black I do not have sickle cell and in fact most black people I know don’t have sickle cell. That does not negate the genetic heritability of sickle cell that runs through certain populations (black people). Similarly, one should not expect all Amerindians to be alcoholics.

Jeez.

Time,

Facts are facts. The differeing points of view are just that. An elephant seen from the front, back and side is the same elephant just seen from differing perspectives.

The Law
Sociologists
Geneticists
etc

are nothing more than different points of view…perhaps you may consider this from Alfred Korzybski…The Map is not the Territory…so with that in mind your mental map and mine are made up of pieces of information from the outside world to conjure up what we believe the world to be…and in this case

I choose to include many different parts of the puzzle to help me see what I see is a clear map.that more accurately reflects what is in the world…that is all I am doing…it keeps me sane…and if you are interested you may want to venture into Korzybski’s work

Science and Sanity…

 

[TimeEntrance]

If you had a spiritual awakening in the 12th step…how many more do you need to stay off the stuff?

If you believe, as I do, in habit, vice, sin and salvation…then we constantly seek salvation and avoid sin, strengthening our habits with virtue by human effort to avoid sin, form our conscience and seek grace…no steps…just a continuous journey…come follow me…

This shows a total misunderstanding of the 12 Step Program. And I’m not a die hard 12 Step or AA, NA, CA advocate. In fact, I find it very irksome when some of their members talk about the program as the only way out of a life made unmanageable by alcohol and drug use. In other words, it irks me that talk like Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Democrats, and Republicans.

Just like one can be miserable - even evil - and a hardcore Catholic and a person can be happy - even saintly - and a hardcore Muslim. It’s called observation and drawing upon facts. The fact is there are many people that have recovered from alcoholism or drug addiction through other means than AA, NA, and CA where those programs did not arrest their use. Just like one of my cousins left the Catholic Church to become Protestant and far more ethical and good man than when he was under the Catholic program and living a life full of sin with little ethics.

So, to be fair to Protestants, they do not worship Satan or Buddha or Mohammad. They worship God the Holy Trinity. To be fair to the 12 Step Program it never stops but one continuesly goes through the 12 Steps over the rest of their lives (e.g., take personal inventory everyday, and when discovering or realizing they are wrong, promptly admit it). Or one might say the 12 Stepers are Jesuit-esque or Catholic-esque (e.g, confession, introspection, praying the rosary etc)

I don’t really know what you are trying to get at here. I don’t think rehab is necessary to get sober, but I do think it can help people that are accepting of it. I do think that there are problems with the 12 step program though. **My main one is that you have to claim you are powerless to your addiction. I just think that once you proclaim this it gives you a reason to rationalize relapsing…“well its not my fault, I’m powerless.” **

And I don’t really know what you mean by its the person not the drug. Yes, some people are more prone to addiction than others, but comparing someone addicted to marijuana to someone addicted to meth is absurd.

Or lets put it another way as a Protestant on the outside might view Catholics: Catholics worship Mary and Catholics don’t have a brain in their head because they only listen to the Pope and can’t think for themselves.

The idea of “powerlessness” hits at the very core of human pride. To be fair the 12 Step program one must understand what those Protestants meant by that in the bigger picture. They meant - as the 12 Steps state - that one must admit their best effort failed them without depending on the grace of God. Oh, how evil!

One must also understand what they meant within the context of addiction. Typically, the alcoholic and drug addict desires to control the amount they can consume of alcohol or drugs. In fact it is a well known vicious cycle - every crack addict tells themselves, “This time I’ll only use 1 or 3 crack rocks.” It never happens, they always use until they spend all their money, can’t borrow anymore money, or can’t get anymore crack on credit (debt) from crack dealers. Simple as that.

Ergo, the maxim in AA, NA, and CA, *“One is too many and a thousand are never enough.”
*

There is another maxim in AA,* “Once a cucumber becomes a pickle it can never go back to being a cucumber.” *

These two maxims are at the heart of the AA point that the addict must surrender (a paradox - and Christianity is full of them) rather than continue to fight and seek control/domination over their substance they are addicted to, because the addict typically morns that they no longer are a cucumber and with all the energy in their body wishes to fight and return to being a cucumber. This has led more than a few addicts into prison, institutions, and early graves.

If one is going to take issue with Buddhist meditation, Catholic praying of the rosary, or the AA concept of “powerlessness” they should learn what those groups mean and understand by those things.

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill,

Provide a simple question and I will answer to the best of my ability.

What did Jesus have to say about the rich man giving up his wealth to follow him in order to be saved and to get into heaven?

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill,

The issue of medical marijuana is a hot potato. There is an inherent risk associated with it’s use. While the States are allowing it, you know, that the Federal law trumps State law and this is as a result of the Harrison act. I don’t agree with prosecution for medical marijuana but knowing that it can be a legal problem this would dissuade me from engaging in the medical use. It is just too risky.

So you make a choice. I make choices too. I think that God and Jesus trump man when it comes to setting rules and make my choices accordingly. Does this mean I may face a consequence by a man? Yes. Does this change the fact that God and Jesus rules trump man’s? No.

 

[TimeEntrance]

I agree with CopticChristian,

And while I might not take as hard a line as he against AA (as I have benefited from it) I am also someone who is a very light social drinker now, whereas in the past if you put an ounce of alcohol in me I could not stop drinking.

With all due respect, you don’t sound to me like you were ever an alcoholic. Drinking to excess does not make one alcoholic. I did it for most my young life without ever being an alcoholic. Had some great times too.

There were the underlying issues that I faced that I worked on (inside aa and outside of aa) that helped me be a non alcoholic, recovered from that ailment. And it took additional help outisde of AA to get me there (self help, studing cbt, et). I don’t recommend those in AA start to drink, I think that most can’t drink in safety even after decades, but those who truely commit to addressing their spiritual/psycholigical/emotional problems and make this a priority and do so for years may find that they wind up with other ways to cope with their issues and the negatives associated with alcohol far outweigh the benefits (and I’m talking as little as having 2-3 drinks and it making me very tired).

I can have a sip and stop. 3 sips, 1/2 glass, 1 glass…it’s all the same. Alcohol to me, now, is like swiss cheese or something. I don’t particularly care for it but do have a little once in a great while. But after eating 1/2 piece I have NO desire or compulsion to have more.

Again, I don’t suggest those in AA try and drink, more often than not I think disaster will happen. But that does not negate what CopticChristian is saying.

If one in or not in AA choose to involve themself in CBT, smart, rational recovery, all of those, they may find different results where they are not compulsed to go to AA meetings and work with ‘newcomers’. Again, I think AA is a net positive for those involved, but it can be benefitial to look at alcohol and other substances from a perspective different than the disease model.

Again, I don’t recommend anyone with a current or past issue with alcohol to drink as the results can and usually are disasterous. But by using a different (or several models) to work towrads recovery one may find greater freedom from alcohol than one finds in AA alone.

God Bless,
Bill

CopticChristian is like those Catholics that thumped the bible and were adamant the Catholic Church was right and Galileo was wrong.

Galileo was a sincere Catholic - and 3rd Order Franciscan - and thought he was helping the Church in the long run by proposing the earth revolves around the sun. He also thought that the Church was going to be paying a large price - in reputation and image - for many hundreds of years if it kept to teaching the earth was the center of the universe and the sun revolved around the earth.

And now to this day the Church has to pay the cost of it’s previous ignorance combined with arrogance.

CopticChristian can possibly dupe those with no background in the sciences because there is a particular approach to reasoning and methods of arriving at conclusions in science.

Mind you, science is not the only valid way to arrive at a conclusion or to seek truth. I’m not adherent of “scientism.” But I think it would be hard to argue against many of the successes of science in studying the biological, chemical, and physical world at large.

The conclusion I arrive at from reading Coptic Christians posts is that he has problematic reasoning skills. My impression - mind you it’s my impression - is that at best his reasoning ability is not much above a Freshman biology student.

He attempts to speak too dogmatically on issues that really require much more research (not a typical trait of doctoral degree scientist - from my experience that are quicker to acknowledge what they don’t know than the average lay person or undergraduate student for that matter). He compounds the problem by mixing religious (Catholic) teachings, judicial opinions (secular law), and science in areas of discourse where all these things should be kept secret.

For example, the Catholic Church may be right about individual human life beginning at conception. And in fact I would argue the Church is correct from a biological stand point. However, if I argued with an atheist or secular person over this issue I would not cite the Catholic Catechism and I would argue my points from what I know (learned and *know so far *- not to suggest my knowledge is complete) about biology.

Catholic and Protestant scientists do not write scientific papers and state things like, “The Church teaches…” as support for their hypothesis so they can accept their hypothesis.

But CopticChristian wants to tell me that the Church teaches X… is a habit. Or some nonsense like that as though it is logically coherent with the scientific method. Then he keeps indirectly appealing to authority (a logical fallacy) by frequently mentioning he is a physician.

I have seen nothing of Coptic’s points in this thread or more specifically, this disagreement of ours, that strike me as particularly remarkably insightful. And I’m one that is pretty staunchly anti-deterministic when it comes humans. At least, if all areas of the individuals brain remains healthy and without any sort of damage. We know from people with Tourettes that they lack free will with respects to their involuntary tics. And I think their is sufficient evidence that once a person develops the medical condition of addiction to crack or alcoholism, that once they begin the use of their substance of choice their free will either diminishes significantly or all together.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourette_syndrome

 

[CopticChristian]

This shows a total misunderstanding of the 12 Step Program. And I’m not a die hard 12 Step or AA, NA, CA advocate. In fact, I find it very irksome when some of their members talk about the program as the only way out of a life made unmanageable by alcohol and drug use. In other words, it irks me that talk like Protestants, Catholics, Muslims, Democrats, and Republicans.

Just like one can be miserable - even evil - and a hardcore Catholic and a person can be happy - even saintly - and a hardcore Muslim. It’s called observation and drawing upon facts. The fact is there are many people that have recovered from alcoholism or drug addiction through other means than AA, NA, and CA where those programs did not arrest their use. Just like one of my cousins left the Catholic Church to become Protestant and far more ethical and good man than when he was under the Catholic program and living a life full of sin with little ethics.

So, to be fair to Protestants, they do not worship Satan or Buddha or Mohammad. They worship God the Holy Trinity. To be fair to the 12 Step Program it never stops but one continuesly goes through the 12 Steps over the rest of their lives (e.g., take personal inventory everyday, and when discovering or realizing they are wrong, promptly admit it). Or one might say the 12 Stepers are Jesuit-esque or Catholic-esque (e.g, confession, introspection, praying the rosary etc)

Or lets put it another way as a Protestant on the outside might view Catholics: Catholics worship Mary and Catholics don’t have a brain in their head because they only listen to the Pope and can’t think for themselves.

The idea of “powerlessness” hits at the very core of human pride. To be fair the 12 Step program one must understand what those Protestants meant by that in the bigger picture. They meant - as the 12 Steps state - that one must admit their best effort failed them without depending on the grace of God. Oh, how evil!
One must also understand what they meant within the context of addiction. Typically, the alcoholic and drug addict desires to control the amount they can consume of alcohol or drugs. In fact it is a well known vicious cycle - every crack addict tells themselves, “This time I’ll only use 1 or 3 crack rocks.” It never happens, they always use until they spend all their money, can’t borrow anymore money, or can’t get anymore crack on credit (debt) from crack dealers. Simple as that.

Ergo, the maxim in AA, NA, and CA, *“One is too many and a thousand are never enough.”
*

There is another maxim in AA,* “Once a cucumber becomes a pickle it can never go back to being a cucumber.” *

These two maxims are at the heart of the AA point that the addict must surrender (a paradox - and Christianity is full of them) rather than continue to fight and seek control/domination over their substance they are addicted to, because the addict typically morns that they no longer are a cucumber and with all the energy in their body wishes to fight and return to being a cucumber. This has led more than a few addicts into prison, institutions, and early graves.

If one is going to take issue with Buddhist meditation, Catholic praying of the rosary, or the AA concept of “powerlessness” they should learn what those groups mean and understand by those things.

Time,

I know more than you might know about AA and what it teaches…the word grace appears only once in the big book found here.

search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp05282c00&sp-p=any&sp-f=iso-8859-1&sp-q=grace&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=any&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-c=50

Page 25: open
…throughout history. But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations. So many want to stop but cannot. There is a solution. Almost none of us liked the self-searching, the leveling of our pride, the confession of shortcomings which the process requires for its successful consummation. But we saw that it really worked in others, and we had come to believe in the hopelessness and futility of life as we had been…

So how is it AA teaches you to depend on the grace of God as you say?

 

[TimeEntrance]

Bill,

From The Truth About Addiction, Stanton Peele, Phd.

You may want to understand that those that are 12 step disciples will attack this information and discount the messenger and not the message.

If you listen to Joe & Charlie, AA gurus, that explain the history of AA and the steps…you will hear that it was Bill Wilson’s dream to have Missionaries, Missions, all oriented towards getting people into AA.

You now have the missions, the 12 step rehab facilities…where they have a vested interest in their existince, $50,000.00 for a 6 week stay.

You now have the disciples, those that attend the meetings and those that graduate from the missions…all looking for people to get into the religion of AA

The catch 22 is that if, like you, you say you drink…then you were never an alcoholic or if you deny that you have a problem, then you are in denial because it is a black and white paradigm…

Your rhetoric reminds me of anti-Catholic rhetoric about the Catholic Church and it’s “vast wealth.” Just look at Vatican City they say. The Pope used to carried in a chair by men like a secular king. And we know about all the gold and silver used in churches throughout the Americas that often were produced by the slave labor of Amerindians and blacks.

You understand little to nothing about AA - and that’s saying something because I’ve not been involved in it for much time and even I know little about it.

AA, NA, and CA meetings are self supporting through the voluntary contribution of the addicts desiring to arrest their addictions or maintain the arrest of their addictions. And all are welcome even if they don’t have a penny to toss in the collection basket. If anything it is those that have one or multiple years of sobriety that contribute most the money to the meetings . Taking it upon themselves to keep the meetings financed so new comers have a meeting and place to go.

I stayed a very short time in the Catholic community down in Florida developed over in Italy by Sister Elvera (considered a living saint I believe), now spread to a few parts of the world. A very tough place to live in. They say they are a “school of life,” and that “community can’t be told but just experienced.” Both are true. And it is very cult-like. Think of it as AA on steroids. There are many young men - I knew one of them - that will write this nun living in Italy and ask her if they should date or marry some woman they’ve met and fallen for. If she says no then they will end their relationship with the woman. If she gives her approval they’ll continue the relationship and maybe even marry her.

The members there - many who are impressive people I have to tell you - speak about community the way people in AA speak about AA. And you are expected to learn to put total trust in what they term the “Community.”

Whatever you like they will take from you. Because suffering and sacrifice are promoted. They learned I liked to discuss Catholic theology, so, others were forbidden to discuss Catholic theology or teachings with me.

Also, for at least 3 years or so (they ask Americans to commit to at least 3 years - but in Europe it’s usually 5 or more), you are not allowed to speak to female visitors. Those with the most time in Community run Community and are expected to set an example and help lead those new to community down the right path. And the punishments can be harsh. Digging huge ditches for day, cutting the lawn with scissors, shunning, eating, sleeping, at bathing separate from everyone else. One of my friends had to sleep in the trailer at night that was infested with cockroaches as punishment (along with bathing in the sink in the trailer, community shunning, and eating separately). His punishment was for leaving Community and then coming back. They will accept you back in but you will have to be willing to endure a punishment - and for psychological effect they never tell you when your punishment will end. Could be a few days or or or two months.

We prayed the rosary 3 times a day and often on our knees on a stone floor. Sports was mandatory for males. Females have a separate community.

And this community now has priests and nuns. I admire any priest or nun or lay person spending years let alone their life in that Community because it is demanding and will strip away whatever pride and will to control you have. And while that community has not stopped even some of their long term members from relapsing once they “graduated” (for lack of a better term) and left Community, it certainly has turned some of it’s members into admirable, morally strong, and very disciplined people.

But even Community would not advise a drug addict to return back to drugs. Actually, they recommend you never return to the city you used in again. This I gathered - is due to their experience with their members that returned back to their city. Just like I was told in Italy Sister Elvera used to allow the Italian alcoholics and addicts to drink a glass of wine at dinner and allowed smoking of cigarettes. But from whatever some (not all) of the alcoholics and addicts did, Sister and the rest of the nuns stopped allowing both of those.

AA is built up in experiences too. And like many members in Community stay extra years in Community to voluntarily “give back” by helping the new people to Community learn the path to salvation from their addictions, so too, the “Old Timers,” in AA feel they need to give back to AA by helping the new comers.

 

[TimeEntrance]

Time,

I know more than you might know about AA and what it teaches…the word grace appears only once in the big book found here.

search.atomz.com/search/?sp-a=sp05282c00&sp-p=any&sp-f=iso-8859-1&sp-q=grace&sp-advanced=1&sp-p=any&sp-w-control=1&sp-w=alike&sp-c=50

So how is it AA teaches you to depend on the grace of God as you say?

No you don’t because I not only have gone to many meetings but have a number of associates in AA, NA, and CA. And I know as fact your view symmetrically follows the Protestant accusation about the Hail Mary Prayer, The Rosary, and Catholic worshiping of Mary.

The idea of grace can be inferred from the 12 Steps and knowing that Protestants mainly developed the 12 Steps. Just like it can be inferred from the 12 Steps that is was not atheists that developed AA.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

Twelve Steps

These are the original Twelve Steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:[10]

**We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.**
Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
**Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.**
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
**Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.**
Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I’m told the 12 Steps are similar to the Jesuit Spiritual Exercises. Are the Jesuits evil? I mean… if a Catholic or Jesuit had a spiritual awakening why the need for daily examinations (or taking of personal inventory as AA people say)?

I think one can infer from those things above that I placed in bold that at base AA founders taught alcoholics to surrender to the grace of God rather than try and fight by use of their own will and no need of God. Intoxicating to human pride I’ll admit; We don’t need God, our choice and mental gymnastics are sufficient.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_Exercises_of_Ignatius_of_Loyola

Though the underlying spiritual outlook is Catholic, the exercises are often made nowadays by non-Catholics. The ‘Spiritual Exercises’ booklet was formally approved in 1548 by Paul III.[2]