Is it logically possible for something other than God to create something ex-nihlo?

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So to answer this question one must first define what nothing is, and what something is. And depending upon how you do that, it could be argued that not even God can create something out of nothing.
The concept of nothing is interesting but it’s not necessary here, and in fact the question you’re asking here actually makes the error of supposing “nothing” is a material that God made things out of.

“God created out of nothing” isn’t such a statement. It just means God created without any pre-existing material. God did not partition of a part of himself to mold into something else, nor did he take anything else pre-existing and give order to it. He simply wills it, and things other than him are.
 
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I tried to create a pebble & failed. If anyone has succeded
they’ve kept it to themselves
According to the Banach Tarski theorem you can get two identical balls from one ball. (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
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End_Timer:
I tried to create a pebble & failed. If anyone has succeded
they’ve kept it to themselves
According to the Banach Tarski theorem you can get two identical balls from one ball. (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
So you need a ball already to do it, so it’s not from nothing.

In addition, when you can find me a surface of a ball with no depth and then break it into infinitely many pieces with no width or length, let me know.
 
It just means God created without any pre-existing material. God did not partition of a part of himself to mold into something else, nor did he take anything else pre-existing and give order to it. He simply wills it, and things other than him are.
I do believe that a clear definition of “nothing” is needed here. I understand that God created everything out of no pre-existing material, but God must have possessed the concept of those created things in order to will them into existence. Thus it depends upon whether one considers concepts to be something, or nothing. Also, some of us might argue that there may still be no material things, and thus defining what “something” is, is also necessary.

Because if all that exists are concepts arranged in some coherent form, then it could be argued that there still is nothing.
 
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Wesrock:
It just means God created without any pre-existing material. God did not partition of a part of himself to mold into something else, nor did he take anything else pre-existing and give order to it. He simply wills it, and things other than him are.
I do believe that a clear definition of “nothing” is needed here. I understand that God created everything out of no pre-existing material, but God must have possessed the concept of those created things in order to will them into existence. Thus it depends upon whether one considers concepts to be something, or nothing. Also, some of us might argue that there may still be no material things, and thus defining what “something” is, is also necessary.

Because if all that exists are concepts arranged in some coherent form, then it could be argued that there still is nothing.
God is his knowledge and is all the concepts of being. All effects are in their cause in some manner, and in the case of Pure Act (capable of effecting all possible things) exist in an intelligible or virtual manner as his essence (there’s no other manner they could be in him). I’m not going into it, but this is one of the bases for omniscience.
 
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In short, no.

God being omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent, and therefore preceding and subsuming all created things, necessarily creates ex nihilo. All other created things, being contingent both upon the will of God, and upon the parameters within which they are contained, are fundamentally incapable of creating ex nihilo. In fact, properly understood, nothing and nobody at all creates, save God. We may sub-create, which is to say that we participate in God’s creative power by way of derivation (re-creating with what already is), but that is the extent of the sub-creative power of the created being.

You might imagine a human materializing a marble sphere “out of nothing”, but this is a very limited view of the actual extent of Creation. Any single thing is not merely matter, but possesses also and essence or idea, and accidents, as well as laws which it obeys, and forces which it is moved by.

So even supposing that you could apparate new matter into the world and conform it to a shape of your choosing, the very idea of the sphere is not uniquely yours. And that is the logical crux: There is no thing that could be created by a created being that does not in some fundamental way precede their imagining and understanding, nor escape the burden of the laws to which the created being is bound. All creative impetus in the created being is derivative of the world in which their individual existence arrived. Therefore, by logical necessity, a created being is incapable of creating ex nihilo–they are unable to possess a neo-genesis of ideas.
 
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when you can find me a surface of a ball with no depth and then break it into infinitely many pieces with no width or length, let me know.
In the Banach Tarski case, the original ball is solid and is broken into at least five pieces and then reassembled to get two solid balls of the same size as the original ball. You can use more than five pieces, but it does work with exactly five pieces also.
http://matwbn.icm.edu.pl/ksiazki/fm/fm34/fm34125.pdf
 
a created being is incapable of creating ex nihilo
Would it be possible that some type of formless vibratory energy was always present and that a certain portion of this underwent a phase transition and was thereby transformed into the material universe we now see.
 
For instance, why would it be logically impossible for a man to create another person ex-nihlo without the assistance of God?
Because a human being is not the act of existence and only exist’s by the power of existence.

We have a being which is our actual nature, but existence is not our intrinsic nature. It is something given to us rather than something that is natural to us. We can only give our nature (express it’s potentiality), but we cannot give reality, we cannot give what doesn’t belong to our nature; and so it makes sense that we are unable to create ex-nihilo. Existence is intrinsic to God’s nature and that is why he has the power to actualise that which does not have it’s own intrinsic act of reality. God has the power of existence itself, and so God can will a nature to exist that is essentially distinct from his own nature.

But we do have something that is analogous to God’s creative power and that is our ability to imagine things. But this is a very limited version of what God can actually do. In fact it is not far from the truth to say that we exist in God’s mind.
 
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Would it be possible that some type of formless vibratory energy was always present and that a certain portion of this underwent a phase transition and was thereby transformed into the material universe we now see.
Well, Aquinas wouldn’t say that this is impossible. However, even if it were true, such a thing could only exist by the existential power of God, even if it was always there. A vibratory transformable energy is still something that doesn’t exist by the power of it’s own nature, which is made evident by the fact that it can transform and change, change being the very reason why Aquinas’ inferences an uncaused cause in the first place; because that which is fundamentally limited in it’s act of existence cannot at the same be the source of it’s existence or be existence itself. Fundamental reality is pure-actuality, and by it’s very nature has the fullness of it’s own existence. It is not potentially more of any thing because there is no source of existence anywhere else other than it’s own nature. So there cannot be anything in it’s nature that is not yet realized.

Which is why, when it comes to finding an ultimate cause, it doesn’t make sense looking for a natural explanation, in principle.
 
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For instance, why would it be logically impossible for a man to create another person ex-nihlo without the assistance of God?
All creation borrows Life from the uncreated Creator God who is Life:

Pro_22:7 The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.

Psa_36:9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.

Job_10:12 Thou hast granted me life and favour, and thy visitation hath preserved my spirit.

Job_33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psa_21:4 He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

Act_17:25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

If it were possible to have life apart from God, then even Lucifer, the most intelligent created being (Eze. 28:3,12) would then be able to perpetuate his own existence outside and apart from God. He would in effect, be ‘God’.

It is therefore not possible without God, being Life.

Joh_11:25 “Jesus said … I am the resurrection, and the life:”
 
God is his knowledge and is all the concepts of being.
But couldn’t the exact same thing be said of me?
All effects are in their cause in some manner, and in the case of Pure Act (capable of effecting all possible things) exist in an intelligible or virtual manner as his essence
Again, couldn’t the same be said of me?

For example, I could create in my mind the concept of a money tree. A medium sized one, good for shade, which blossoms every spring. But I haven’t created this concept of a money tree out of nothing, I’ve created it out of concepts that already existed in my mind. Conceivably, there’s nothing that currently exists, or could exist, that doesn’t have its source in the concepts already present in my mind.

So in this sense, how are God and I different?
 
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Wesrock:
God is his knowledge and is all the concepts of being.
But couldn’t the exact same thing be said of me?
All effects are in their cause in some manner, and in the case of Pure Act (capable of effecting all possible things) exist in an intelligible or virtual manner as his essence
Again, couldn’t the same be said of me?

For example, I could create in my mind the concept of a money tree. A medium sized one, good for shade, which blossoms every spring. But I haven’t created this concept of a money tree out of nothing, I’ve created it out of concepts that already existed in my mind. Conceivably, there’s nothing that currently exists, or could exist, that doesn’t have its source in the concepts already present in my mind.

So in this sense, how are God and I different?
There is an analogy between God knowing what a money tree is and you conceiving it in your mind. And when you are the cause of things the effect can exist at least partially in you as one of its causes in a virtual manner, as an architect conceives of and is one of the causes of a building. However, for you it remains only a form that exists in an intelligible or cognoscible manner in your intellect (forms of this type are typically called species in Thomist epistemology, to allow us to be more precise in discussion) unless you also act on other existing things. God, however, can create the thing such that it exists in a natural manner (as opposed to intelligible manner). You only have the form/species in your mind and not as your own natural form, but God has it intelligible and can create a being that has that form as its own form.

God also is his intellect and is his knowledge. That is his substance and essence. He is Simple. It his his whole being. You and human beings in general aren’t just our intellects. We have bodies, feelings, etc… Our intellective faculties are just parts of us.

Unlike God, we also have move through our thoughts in a discursive and ratiocinate manner. Even as a solipsist, that is how you experience your thoughts and knowing. We can also be erroneous. God, in contrast, does not have defects in his knowledge and doesn’t think. It’s not a process. He doesn’t experience movement through thoughts. He is knowing all at once without succession.

One addendum, I say God doesn’t think like us. Point of clarification: I am referring to the Divine Nature. The human Incarnation of Jesus also possessed a human intellect in addition to the Divine, and the human intellect thinks as we do. So, if we are referring to all of Christian theology, it would be correct to say God thinks as we do through the assumed human nature, but not through his divine nature. That’s a whole other topic, but I say it for other members on these forums, not just you.
 
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Would it be possible that some type of formless vibratory energy was always present and that a certain portion of this underwent a phase transition and was thereby transformed into the material universe we now see.
No. In fact, it’s a contradiction in terms, ontologically, to say anything is formless. And so long as you’re suggesting a pre-material “vibratory energy”, you’ll have to provide an imaginative definition for what you mean by both vibration and energy.

Vibration is the oscillatory behavior of a substance or wave (which presupposes motion, which further presupposes both a body to be moved and a space within which said body may move); energy is a conserved physical quantity which does not exist unto itself, but is a property of a material body.

But let’s suppose we can imagine this pre-material stuff. And let’s suppose that it does in fact transition from a pre-material substance into a material universe. Well, further supposing that we leave God/Supreme Intelligence out of the discussion thus far, then we would say that materiality is an inherent potential “state” of this substance, and that its materiality is already assumed in its causal framework. While its materiality did not exist in actuality prior to transition, it already existed in potentiality as an idea and condition of the substance’s existence. The essence of an object cannot be changed to the essence of an entirely new object on a purely mechanical level.

In fact, this transitory quality of the substance, its ability “to transition”, necessarily assumes the existence of the end point of the transition. This also presupposes temporality, or if we must, even a metatemporality, but in either case, this hypothetical substance-in-transition necessarily has the quality of Becoming, which means it is in a process of arriving (and also that the terminal point which is to be arrived at already exists).

A substance which is arriving, yet has not fully arrived must have been created and is not eternal, as since it is arriving, it is contingent and cannot sustain itself. It must be sustained by some substrative Power other than itself.

But barring all of this, a process of becoming is not a process of creating, and a substance which moves from pre-materiality to materiality is not creating. As you say, it is merely transitioning. And therefore the material form of the substance is “created” out of the pre-material form of the substance, not ex nihilo.

Conclusion in next post…
 
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The only “thing” that satisfies the requirements for creating ex nihilo is the Supreme Being, the Infinite Intelligence, omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent, sustained within and by itself and sustaining all else. Indeed, the whole concept of ex nihilo creation succeeds rather than exists separately from the notion of an all-powerful God.

The question of whether something can be created out of nothing does not exist when God is not considered. Rather, one is forced to take for granted that there is something and must always have been as nothing is not a considerable concept. It is a non-concept. It is only when one comes to believe in God that one necessarily concludes that God creates out of nothing because He is Himself endless and therefore does not rely upon anything at all to create.
 
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One addendum, I say God doesn’t think like us. Point of clarification: I am referring to the Divine Nature. The human Incarnation of Jesus also possessed a human intellect in addition to the Divine, and the human intellect thinks as we do. So, if we are referring to all of Christian theology, it would be correct to say God thinks as we do through the assumed human nature, but not through his divine nature.
But yet again, could not the same be said of me?

As you probably recall, as a solipsist I can’t help but notice the triune nature of the self. As such I have a human nature. And this human nature is fallible. But there’s another aspect to my nature, one that’s infallible. For although I can imagine a money tree, I cannot create one at my whim.

But why not?

Because to do so would lead to a contradiction. So something is preventing me from creating contradictions. Which means that that which the conscious mind can conceive, doesn’t automatically lead to that which the mind can create.

The conscious mind is but one aspect of the triune self, it’s not the end all and be all of the self. It has limitations.

It is in essence an observer.

It’'s very much like trying to understand the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
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It is difficult enough for many to accept ex nihilo creation even from an omnipotent God. I think it logically follows that from a lesser being, such would be impossible.

Unless you are an enchanter, who some call “Tim”

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f space time is changing, as happened at the time of the Big Bang, energy may not be conserved.
While I certainly appreciate the share (Thank you 🙂), as I’m not a physicist, I wasn’t terribly concerned with the actual physics of energy. That said, without starting a whole new conversation–I’m not competent in physics–after scanning about the web, the concensus from the first page of linked articles on Google seems to be that Mr. Carroll is not entirely correct, and that the conservation of energy does in fact largely hold up even in general relativity, given the appropriate circumstances.

In either case, energy isn’t a “thing” so much as a quantity. It’s a measurement of a discreet physical plane. In an infinite plane, so to speak, there is no measurement or quantity (quantity cannot be derived from infinity, and infinity cannot be reduced to quanitities) and therefore, no need or want for energy. Energy, as a measurement, wouldn’t merely exist independent of a physical universe.
 
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Our decisions are the result of processing various stimuli to arrive at a conclusion.
Actually, the processing arrives at a conclusion of “True or False”, “Good to be One With, or Not Good to be One With”. This is the Intellect, not the Will.
The “decision” is a grasping by the Will, a non-material power of the soul, a grasping at movement toward actual union with Good that will make me match material reality with the concluded processing of “Good to be One With” in theory.
So, a “decision” is not a matter of processing - it is an appetitive movement toward apparent good.
But, this is also not a “creation” and not an “ex nihilo event”

John Martin
 
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