Is it ludicrous to think that the world will remain Capitalistic?

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Could be socialism or distributionism. Or it could be a hybrid system specially built to promote LOVE!
Wait a minute. If “love” is the yardstick, and since capitalism exists, inevitably, in all systems, then the logically best system is one in which there is the least coercion. Coerced transfers are not motivated by love, but by fear. Voluntary transfers are motivated by love.

Consequently, the most likely system to promote love (if that’s the yardstick) is a pretty unfettered system, but in which individuals have the maximum of opportunity to obtain capital and make decisions about it themselves.

In an economic system, the goals would be economic growth, full employment, reduced taxation and regulatory burden on individuals, raw materials, and small business.

Vigorous promotion (and non-harrassment) of religion would also be appropriate, as religion has, and probably always will, promote love as a virtue.

Remembering the economic puzzle called “Mother’s Dilemma”, likely it would be the most efficient as well.
 
Could be socialism or distributionism. Or it could be a hybrid system specially built to promote LOVE!
True socialism promotes fear, not love. True Distributionism (not its modern “interpretations”) would be likely to promote love. But it would be difficult to promote true distributionism in the presence of undue governmental coercion because the two are antithetical in purpose.
 
Wait a minute. If “love” is the yardstick, and since capitalism exists, inevitably, in all systems, then the logically best system is one in which there is the least coercion. Coerced transfers are not motivated by love, but by fear. Voluntary transfers are motivated by love.

Consequently, the most likely system to promote love (if that’s the yardstick) is a pretty unfettered system, but in which individuals have the maximum of opportunity to obtain capital and make decisions about it themselves.

In an economic system, the goals would be economic growth, full employment, reduced taxation and regulatory burden on individuals, raw materials, and small business.

Vigorous promotion (and non-harrassment) of religion would also be appropriate, as religion has, and probably always will, promote love as a virtue.

Remembering the economic puzzle called “Mother’s Dilemma”, likely it would be the most efficient as well.
Sounds like capitalism with a relatively free market is the system most apt to promote love!
 
Just because all economic systems have elements of capitalism is little or no reason to propose it as the dominant system. LOVE needs to be easily cultivated from a successful economic system!
I think you need to get out of dreamland and give an actual example of the economic system which would promote “love”, as you say.

You are very good at promoting an imaginary, optimistic, perfect world view when no such thing can exist in the real world.
 
Sounds like capitalism with a relatively free market is the system most apt to promote love!
How so? The only loves in capitalism is love of money, love of power and love of prestige.
 
How so? The only loves in capitalism is love of money, love of power and love of prestige.
I really do think you’re thinking of a stereotyped image and have missed what others have been saying.

Remember the points:
-Capitalism is in every society, whether you call the society capitalist or socialist or anything else.
-The question is not whether there is capital and its use, but who gets to use it. The core question is whether individuals who earn it get to use it or whether they get it taken away from them by government.
-Government seizure of capital is coercion, not love.
-Since only individuals can show “love” by being generous, the only way to promote those expressions of love is to allow individuals to have sufficient amount of their capital to do so.
-There is no particular reason to think people would be less generous voluntarily that they would be by politically endorsing coercion.
-The high probability is that individual giving is more efficient than coerced giving, since individual transfers are always more efficient than state transfers.
-Coerced transfer payments reduce individuals’ ability to make voluntary transfers, and therefore high taxes reduce the “love” that can be shown.
 
I really do think you’re thinking of a stereotyped image and have missed what others have been saying.

Remember the points:
-Capitalism is in every society, whether you call the society capitalist or socialist or anything else.
-The question is not whether there is capital and its use, but who gets to use it. The core question is whether individuals who earn it get to use it or whether they get it taken away from them by government.
-Government seizure of capital is coercion, not love.
-Since only individuals can show “love” by being generous, the only way to promote those expressions of love is to allow individuals to have sufficient amount of their capital to do so.
-There is no particular reason to think people would be less generous voluntarily that they would be by politically endorsing coercion.
-The high probability is that individual giving is more efficient than coerced giving, since individual transfers are always more efficient than state transfers.
-Coerced transfer payments reduce individuals’ ability to make voluntary transfers, and therefore high taxes reduce the “love” that can be shown.
The bottom line: You’re taking the love of money, power and prestige and glorifying them. Here are some hard and fast figures that reflect truth, and not stereotypes:

842 million people - or one in eight people in the world - do not have enough to eat.

1.4 billion people in developing countries live on $1.25 a day or less (extreme poverty).

1.7 billion people lack access to clean water.

2.3 billion people suffer from water-borne diseases each year.

How do you propose that capitalism deal with those living in poverty? Have a heart and feel for these people! Too often, we reduce poverty to mere statistics and forget the pain and struggle these people go through.
 
The bottom line: You’re taking the love of money, power and prestige and glorifying them. Here are some hard and fast figures that reflect truth, and not stereotypes:842 million people - or one in eight people in the world - do not have enough to eat.

1.4 billion people in developing countries live on $1.25 a day or less (extreme poverty).

1.7 billion people lack access to clean water.

2.3 billion people suffer from water-borne diseases each year.How do you propose that capitalism deal with those living in poverty? Have a heart and feel for these people! Too often, we reduce poverty to mere statistics and forget the pain and struggle these people go through.
And socialism benefits these poor people, how, exactly?

I certainly don’t recall too many efforts by the USSR (back during the Cold War) to improve the infrastructure serving any of the people in these countries. To the contrary, I do remember the EEEVVVIIILLL US (so full of those greedy capitalists) shipping grain to the USSR to help alleviate starvation in that country (with the exception of a period in 1980 where the socialist Jimmy Carter suspended grain shipments…promptly lifted by the capitalist Reagan once he came into office).

And how much famine relief did the USSR provide to Ethiopia during their famine in the mid 80s? Seems to me that at least the vast majority of the relief came from the West, particularly the evil US (under the Reagan administration) and the evil UK (under the Thatcher government).

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to cast aspersions on the USSR. I’m sure they would have have contributed mightily had they been able to do so (after all, that would have been a tremendous propaganda coup)…but the fact of the matter is that the great experiment in socialism was coming crashing down around them…because it simply DOESN’T WORK.

The only way to solve those problems, both in the short term and the long term, is through economic activity (i.e., through the free market: through that evil capitalism).

In the short term, the way to solve those problems is through providing emergency relief. The majority of that relief comes from voluntary contributions to groups like Caritas. Guess what: it is documented that conservatives are far more open with their pocketbooks that leftists (see the link). It is documented that a higher percentage of income is donated from those living in red states (conservative) than blue states (leftist) (see the link). You can see the full list here (out of the top 10 highest states, only one, Maryland, is a “blue” state).

Even government relief to these poor people is dependent upon free market trading. After all, foreign aid is done with taxes collected from those who had the most economic activity (70% of tax receipts come from the top 10% earners).

In the long term, these countries where starvation is rampant simply must have economic activity to sustain themselves. They have to have something to trade in order to be able to buy that which they need. There is no other way (unless emergency relief is to become a way of life in the long term). While, in theory, a direct barter can happen (I give you X units of product A in exchange for Y units of product B), it is vastly facilitated through a commonly accepted medium of exchange (as it allows indirect barter to happen between multiple parties). That medium is called “money.”

Even small societies where the members ***voluntarily ***have community of goods (such as monasteries) depend upon trade to sustain themselves. Ever hear of Mystic Monk Coffee? Abbey Beer? Benedictine? etc.?

Now you can talk about fluffy ideas like “love” all you want, but the most “loving” thing you can do to help alleviate suffering is to work to help these societies have the capacity to build products and services that they are able to trade with people in other societies, causing economic activity, so that they are able to acquire that which they need to feed their people, medically treat their people, and house their people. The only way that this can happen is through free market trading…in other words, through capitalism (or, if you want to try a model with maximum ownership of private property, you could call it distributism…but it is still free market trading).
 
And socialism benefits these poor people, how, exactly?

I certainly don’t recall too many efforts by the USSR (back during the Cold War) to improve the infrastructure serving any of the people in these countries. To the contrary, I do remember the EEEVVVIIILLL US (so full of those greedy capitalists) shipping grain to the USSR to help alleviate starvation in that country (with the exception of a period in 1980 where the socialist Jimmy Carter suspended grain shipments…promptly lifted by the capitalist Reagan once he came into office).

And how much famine relief did the USSR provide to Ethiopia during their famine in the mid 80s? Seems to me that at least the vast majority of the relief came from the West, particularly the evil US (under the Reagan administration) and the evil UK (under the Thatcher government).

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to cast aspersions on the USSR. I’m sure they would have have contributed mightily had they been able to do so (after all, that would have been a tremendous propaganda coup)…but the fact of the matter is that the great experiment in socialism was coming crashing down around them…because it simply DOESN’T WORK.

The only way to solve those problems, both in the short term and the long term, is through economic activity (i.e., through the free market: through that evil capitalism).

In the short term, the way to solve those problems is through providing emergency relief. The majority of that relief comes from voluntary contributions to groups like Caritas. Guess what: it is documented that conservatives are far more open with their pocketbooks that leftists (see the link). It is documented that a higher percentage of income is donated from those living in red states (conservative) than blue states (leftist) (see the link). You can see the full list here (out of the top 10 highest states, only one, Maryland, is a “blue” state).

Even government relief to these poor people is dependent upon free market trading. After all, foreign aid is done with taxes collected from those who had the most economic activity (70% of tax receipts come from the top 10% earners).

In the long term, these countries where starvation is rampant simply must have economic activity to sustain themselves. They have to have something to trade in order to be able to buy that which they need. There is no other way (unless emergency relief is to become a way of life in the long term). While, in theory, a direct barter can happen (I give you X units of product A in exchange for Y units of product B), it is vastly facilitated through a commonly accepted medium of exchange (as it allows indirect barter to happen between multiple parties). That medium is called “money.”

Even small societies where the members ***voluntarily ***have community of goods (such as monasteries) depend upon trade to sustain themselves. Ever hear of Mystic Monk Coffee? Abbey Beer? Benedictine? etc.?

Now you can talk about fluffy ideas like “love” all you want, but the most “loving” thing you can do to help alleviate suffering is to work to help these societies have the capacity to build products and services that they are able to trade with people in other societies, causing economic activity, so that they are able to acquire that which they need to feed their people, medically treat their people, and house their people. The only way that this can happen is through free market trading…in other words, through capitalism (or, if you want to try a model with maximum ownership of private property, you could call it distributism…but it is still free market trading).
Everything indicates that we will never be rid of capitalism. (just when you prepare to hang the last capitalist. A new one pops up to sell you a rope) But you can’t really maintain that capitalism left to it’s own devices will solve any of the tremendous problems our fellow humans endure. Resources remain limited chiefly because of manipulation by the very capitalist you ineffectively defend. So, obviously the world would be a better place without them. Yes?

ATB
 
The bottom line: You’re taking the love of money, power and prestige and glorifying them. Here are some hard and fast figures that reflect truth, and not stereotypes:

842 million people - or one in eight people in the world - do not have enough to eat.

1.4 billion people in developing countries live on $1.25 a day or less (extreme poverty).

1.7 billion people lack access to clean water.

2.3 billion people suffer from water-borne diseases each year.

How do you propose that capitalism deal with those living in poverty? Have a heart and feel for these people! Too often, we reduce poverty to mere statistics and forget the pain and struggle these people go through.
I wonder how many of those people live in China and how the big government solutions over there are helping. :cool:
 
When nations change from living in a subsistence economy to a market economy making use of capital resources, poverty is reduced substantially. Capitalism reduces poverty.
 
Everything indicates that we will never be rid of capitalism. (just when you prepare to hang the last capitalist. A new one pops up to sell you a rope) But you can’t really maintain that capitalism left to it’s own devices will solve any of the tremendous problems our fellow humans endure. Resources remain limited chiefly because of manipulation by the very capitalist you ineffectively defend. So, obviously the world would be a better place without them. Yes?

ATB
The beauty of capitalism is that nobody has to make it happen. If excess funds are available (something unlikely in a socialist or communist society), they become a resource that can be allocated to altruistic giving. Otherwise, giving becomes impossible.

Are you urging temporary aid to make yourself feel better, or are you doing this with the expectation that conditions will improve over the long haul?

How would temporarily feeding these people help out? They would just have more babies, thus exacerbating the problem. As long as people’s belief systems pay no attention to supporting the new babies and may in fact encourage having more babies, the situation just becomes worse. I think that China’s regulations on numbers of children per couple have been very effective.

These problems exist because of poor choices. If a resident sees starving children in the local village, why would more children be desirable? The Catholic Church does not recommend contraception. Neither do most religious leaders. In the woods near my home, I see skeletons of young deer. Isn’t that awful? Think of all the suffering? Our local SPCA is the shelter of last resort for pets. What do they do when there is no room for more pets or their finances warrant against continuing operations? Somehow, the excess population dies.

Certainly placing a greater resource need on a population that is already suffering does not help. This is especially applicable when the people receiving aid have larger families.
 
And socialism benefits these poor people, how, exactly?

I certainly don’t recall too many efforts by the USSR (back during the Cold War) to improve the infrastructure serving any of the people in these countries. To the contrary, I do remember the EEEVVVIIILLL US (so full of those greedy capitalists) shipping grain to the USSR to help alleviate starvation in that country (with the exception of a period in 1980 where the socialist Jimmy Carter suspended grain shipments…promptly lifted by the capitalist Reagan once he came into office).

And how much famine relief did the USSR provide to Ethiopia during their famine in the mid 80s? Seems to me that at least the vast majority of the relief came from the West, particularly the evil US (under the Reagan administration) and the evil UK (under the Thatcher government).

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to cast aspersions on the USSR. I’m sure they would have have contributed mightily had they been able to do so (after all, that would have been a tremendous propaganda coup)…but the fact of the matter is that the great experiment in socialism was coming crashing down around them…because it simply DOESN’T WORK.

The only way to solve those problems, both in the short term and the long term, is through economic activity (i.e., through the free market: through that evil capitalism).

In the short term, the way to solve those problems is through providing emergency relief. The majority of that relief comes from voluntary contributions to groups like Caritas. Guess what: it is documented that conservatives are far more open with their pocketbooks that leftists (see the link). It is documented that a higher percentage of income is donated from those living in red states (conservative) than blue states (leftist) (see the link). You can see the full list here (out of the top 10 highest states, only one, Maryland, is a “blue” state).

Even government relief to these poor people is dependent upon free market trading. After all, foreign aid is done with taxes collected from those who had the most economic activity (70% of tax receipts come from the top 10% earners).

In the long term, these countries where starvation is rampant simply must have economic activity to sustain themselves. They have to have something to trade in order to be able to buy that which they need. There is no other way (unless emergency relief is to become a way of life in the long term). While, in theory, a direct barter can happen (I give you X units of product A in exchange for Y units of product B), it is vastly facilitated through a commonly accepted medium of exchange (as it allows indirect barter to happen between multiple parties). That medium is called “money.”

Even small societies where the members ***voluntarily ***have community of goods (such as monasteries) depend upon trade to sustain themselves. Ever hear of Mystic Monk Coffee? Abbey Beer? Benedictine? etc.?

Now you can talk about fluffy ideas like “love” all you want, but the most “loving” thing you can do to help alleviate suffering is to work to help these societies have the capacity to build products and services that they are able to trade with people in other societies, causing economic activity, so that they are able to acquire that which they need to feed their people, medically treat their people, and house their people. The only way that this can happen is through free market trading…in other words, through capitalism (or, if you want to try a model with maximum ownership of private property, you could call it distributism…but it is still free market trading).
We live in a capitalistic society that values GREED, POWER and PRESTIGE!!! It almost totally lacks LOVE! Such an economy will not cater to true humanitarianism.

Is it really fair to judge socialism when the world was experiencing the Cold War? Of course the values of greed, power and prestige will prevail during times of global turmoil. Socialism takes world cooperation to succeed, not competition.

Read the Gospels and see the LOVE that Christ commands us. “Love your neighbor as yourself.” To go against this commandment is to sin. Compare Christ’s commandments to the attributes of capitalism and socialism and see the disparity.
 
You cannot please both God and the world at the same time. They are utterly oppose to each other in their thoughts, their desires, and their actions.
–St. John Vianney

It may help to remember that God IS LOVE, and anything that goes against LOVE, like capitalism, is evil.

Also, LOVE is not “fluffy,” as one CAF member would have you believe.
 
We live in a capitalistic society that values GREED, POWER and PRESTIGE!!! It almost totally lacks LOVE! Such an economy will not cater to true humanitarianism.

Is it really fair to judge socialism when the world was experiencing the Cold War? Of course the values of greed, power and prestige will prevail during times of global turmoil. Socialism takes world cooperation to succeed, not competition.

Read the Gospels and see the LOVE that Christ commands us. “Love your neighbor as yourself.” To go against this commandment is to sin. Compare Christ’s commandments to the attributes of capitalism and socialism and see the disparity.
By your own admission, it’s the society that values greed, not the system. In fact, capitalism and a free market is the only system that can bring about justice precisely because it is built on the foundation of trust. Love is free, and socialism is forced. Socialism isn’t love, it’s only a perversion of love.

Are there some faulty models of the capitalist system? Sure. But any system not based on freedom and charity is doomed to failure or at least failing the human person. Socialism, by nature being unvoluntary and rejecting the uniqueness and dignity of the human person, is faulty in and of itself.
 
By your own admission, it’s the society that values greed, not the system. In fact, capitalism and a free market is the only system that can bring about justice precisely because it is built on the foundation of trust. Love is free, and socialism is forced. Socialism isn’t love, it’s only a perversion of love.

Are there some faulty models of the capitalist system? Sure. But any system not based on freedom and charity is doomed to failure or at least failing the human person. Socialism, by nature being unvoluntary and rejecting the uniqueness and dignity of the human person, is faulty in and of itself.
Capitalism breeds GREED, POWER and PRESTIGE!
 
We live in a capitalistic society that values GREED, POWER and PRESTIGE!!! It almost totally lacks LOVE! Such an economy will not cater to true humanitarianism.

Is it really fair to judge socialism when the world was experiencing the Cold War? Of course the values of greed, power and prestige will prevail during times of global turmoil. Socialism takes world cooperation to succeed, not competition.

Read the Gospels and see the LOVE that Christ commands us. “Love your neighbor as yourself.” To go against this commandment is to sin. Compare Christ’s commandments to the attributes of capitalism and socialism and see the disparity.
I have.

So has the Church and that is why She has condemned socialism consistently, unambiguously, and with no exceptions. The Church didn’t merely state, “these aspects of Socialism are bad.” The Church didn’t merely state, “if socialism were only _____, then it wouldn’t be so bad.”

Socialism is fundamentally evil at its core.

“Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.


  • Socialism is fundamentally materialist at its core. You cannot get around that, Robert. It is what it is.
 
I have.

So has the Church and that is why She has condemned socialism consistently, unambiguously, and with no exceptions. The Church didn’t merely state, “these aspects of Socialism are bad.” The Church didn’t merely state, “if socialism were only _____, then it wouldn’t be so bad.”

Socialism is fundamentally evil at its core.

“Religious socialism, Christian socialism, are contradictory terms; no one can be at the same time a good Catholic and a true socialist.


  • Socialism is fundamentally materialist at its core. You cannot get around that, Robert. It is what it is.
I never said that the Church doesn’t condemn socialism, but things can, and will, change in order to put Christ (i.e., LOVE) first and foremost into the world’s economic system.

Again, maybe there are alternative systems that are based neither on capitalism or socialism. Capitalism, though, has got to go.
 
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