Is it objectively meaningful and functionally correct to class Same Sex Attraction as a genuine form of human Sexuality?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MindOverMatter2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Nor, according to the study’s principal author, Dean Hamer, were they all identifiably effeminate or, for that matter, all macho.
This is a common mistake among uneducated ignorant people. They seem to think that same sex attraction is a “behavior”. It is true that if you have same sex attractions that it is possible that you will relate to the females on tv and try to emulate them as your idols. But there are also straight people who behave like silly girls. There is a difference between “camp” and “SSA”. Some men just enjoy behaving or acting like the silly teenage girls they see on popular TV. I personally find camp behavior annoying and silly. Its got very little to do with having same sex attraction.
They were diverse except for sexual orientation. Says Hamer: “**This is by far the strongest evidence to date that there is a genetic component to sexual orientation. **We’ve identified a portion of the genome associated with it.”

time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,978923,00.html#ixzz1Zen61Erl
It is true that there is a genetic component to SSA. However we must be careful to realize that it doesn’t cause SSA, but rather it makes a person more likely to develop attraction to the same sex. It doesn’t determine by itself what a person will be a attracted to. There are social and experiential factors involved. There is also a topology, in the sense that a person who appears a certain way will likely be treated a certain way by the community he or she belongs to. If you appear flimsy or feminine in anyway, this might give rise to ridicule or some form of social or sexual criticism , exclusion, or lack of respect for you as a female or male person. This can feed the possibility that such a person will developed same sex attraction. Some people are just assumed to be gay before they ever develop attractions, and are treated as gay, and therefore it is not surprising that such a person is likely to develop the type of sexual insecurities that feed the development of SSA.

There are many reasons or combination of reasons why somebody might develop SSA. One theory i find convincing is that sometimes a boy or a girl may desire something in their same sex peer that they feel is missing in them, and that such a desire can turn into a sexual attraction as they grow up.
 
I don’t know that homosexuality is or isn’t hereditary…it may be but it doesn’t matter, it’s still an abomination in the eyes of God, still a disordered perversion that carries tons of disease and typically a very early death.
Physical attraction to the same sex is not a disordered perversion if it is involuntary.
 
Appearance? You mean like how many openly gay people dress fabulously?

Psychological traits? You mean being neat in appearance? C’mon, what kind of guy is meticulously clean when they don’t have a woman making them?

Behaviour? Is it their fabulous word choice? Excessively superlative inflected speech? Not banging the number of chicks that hang out with them?
It is indisputable that there are men who have been physically and psychologically effeminate since birth… and not by choice…
 
It is true that there is a genetic component to SSA. However we must be careful to realize that it doesn’t cause SSA, but rather it makes a person more likely to develop attraction to the same sex. It doesn’t determine by itself what a person will be a attracted to.
Our free will enables us to overcome our sexual instincts, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, but it is unrealistic to deny there is no genetic component at all! 🙂
 
It is indisputable that there are men who have been physically and psychologically effeminate since birth… and not by choice…
What does that mean? What does it mean to say that a baby is psychologically effeminate? It seems to me that people learn how to behave and think. There is no such thing as an innate psychology. I think you are mistaking cultural behavior as some how biologically hardwired rather than learned.

For example i would not think that a girl was acting like a boy if she chose to play with an action man rather than a Barbie doll. That people would think that this was odd behavior is due to how a group people culturally and subjectively choose to express their sexuality, and has nothing to do with how they are born.
 
Our free will enables us to overcome our sexual instincts, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual, but it is unrealistic to deny there is no genetic component at all! 🙂
I agree that it is more reasonable to suggest that there is a genetic “influence”. I just don’t think thats the only reason why a person develops SSA. I think that a person can carry genetic influencer’s of SSA but still never develop same sex attraction. I think the idea of a “Gay Gene” is proven mythical by the fact that some people are bisexual or a-sexual or have attractions to animals or children. Nobody is suggesting that a “pedophile gene” exists, or that a gene which makes us attracted to animals exists; so why think that its reasonable to say that a gay gene exists?

Again, i agree that there are genetic factors involved, but that is evidently not the whole story.
 
It is indisputable that there are men who have been physically and psychologically effeminate since birth… and not by choice…
And it betrays a lack of information to assume that outward effeminacy predicts homosexual attraction. It does not. Sexual attraction is the result of a complex set of signals between and among attraction-desire-invitation-validation-response-rejection, some of it psychological, some of it physical. Psychologists have understood and observed this for quite some time and continue to.

“Choice” is in itself complex. We choose our behaviors both affirmatively and negatively, as a sign of initiative, as response to invitation, as a way of inquiring, as a default response, and as a means of selecting or de-selecting. We are not always conscious of our choices, certainly not what motivates all of them, nor are we always conscious that we have made a choice. That would be especially true before long-term memory sets in.
 
What does it mean to say that a baby is psychologically effeminate? It seems to me that people learn how to behave and think. There is no such thing as an innate psychology. I think you are mistaking cultural behavior as some how biologically hardwired rather than learned.

For example i would not think that a girl was acting like a boy if she chose to play with an action man rather than a Barbie doll. That people would think that this was odd behavior is due to how a group people culturally and subjectively choose to express their sexuality, and has nothing to do with how they are born.
It is very difficult to distinguish baby boys and girls apart from their genital organs but older children are certainly more or less masculine or feminine than others in their physique. It would be a strange anomaly if such differences had no counterpart at all in their psychological makeup:

"“Early sex hormones have an organizing effect on the brain that’s permanent,” Manning says. But the differences between the sexes aren’t all that interesting to biologists. More telling are the variations within each sex. Females with masculine digit ratios have more masculine behaviors, he says. Likewise, males with a typically female ratio exhibit more typically feminine behaviors.

A study of digit ratio in Scottish preschool children between the ages of 2 and 4 found strong relationships between digit ratio and gender-normative behavior. Girls with masculine-type finger ratios tend to have higher hyperactivity scores and more problems relating to their peers than do other girls. The same study, published in Early Human Development, found that boys with female-type finger lengths are on average more emotional than other boys. “They tended to be very sensitive,” says Manning.

Except for genitalia, relative finger length is the only physical trait fixed at birth that is sexually dimorphic—meaning males and females show typical gender differences. Other sexually dimorphic traits, such as height and waist-to-hip ratio, don’t appear until puberty.

“Everything you see as far as sex differences in the behavior of toddlers is an aftereffect of prenatal testosterone,” says Dennis McFadden, a psychology professor at the University of Texas at Austin. Manning and others have linked finger length ratios to aggression, left-handedness, heart disease, autism and attention deficit disorder, all traits that are more common in men. (Studies indicate they are most common in men with longer than average ring fingers.) A “masculine” finger pattern seems to similarly mark girls predisposed to hyperactivity and autism.

Some scientists believe prenatal sex hormones are also part of the puzzle of homosexuality and that a high level of testosterone may wire the brain for attraction to the same sex. Intriguingly, research shows that a prenatal testosterone level is most strongly linked to homosexuality in women, according to an article in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Lesbians are more likely than straight women to have a masculine finger ratio, says McFadden."

psychologytoday.com/articles/200506/sexuality-your-telltale-fingertipshttp://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200506/sexuality-your-telltale-fingertips.
 
What does that mean? What does it mean to say that a baby is psychologically effeminate? It seems to me that people learn how to behave and think. There is no such thing as an innate psychology. I think you are mistaking cultural behavior as some how biologically hardwired rather than learned.

For example i would not think that a girl was acting like a boy if she chose to play with an action man rather than a Barbie doll. That people would think that this was odd behavior is due to how a group people culturally and subjectively choose to express their sexuality, and has nothing to do with how they are born.
“Early sex hormones have an organizing effect on the brain that’s permanent,” Manning says. But the differences between the sexes aren’t all that interesting to biologists. More telling are the variations within each sex.** Females with masculine digit ratios have more masculine behaviors, he says. Likewise, males with a typically female ratio exhibit more typically feminine behaviors.**
A study of digit ratio in Scottish preschool children between the ages of 2 and 4 found strong relationships between digit ratio and gender-normative behavior. Girls with masculine-type finger ratios tend to have higher hyperactivity scores and more problems relating to their peers than do other girls. The same study, published in Early Human Development, found that boys with female-type finger lengths are on average more emotional than other boys. “They tended to be very sensitive,” says Manning.
Except for genitalia, relative finger length is the only physical trait fixed at birth that is sexually dimorphic—meaning males and females show typical gender differences. Other sexually dimorphic traits, such as height and waist-to-hip ratio, don’t appear until puberty.
“Everything you see as far as sex differences in the behavior of toddlers is an aftereffect of prenatal testosterone,” says Dennis McFadden, a psychology professor at the University of Texas at Austin. Manning and others have linked finger length ratios to aggression, left-handedness, heart disease, autism and attention deficit disorder, all traits that are more common in men. (Studies indicate they are most common in men with longer than average ring fingers.) A “masculine” finger pattern seems to similarly mark girls predisposed to hyperactivity and autism.
Some scientists believe prenatal sex hormones are also part of the puzzle of homosexuality and that a high level of testosterone may wire the brain for attraction to the same sex. Intriguingly, research shows that a prenatal testosterone level is most strongly linked to homosexuality in women, according to an article in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Lesbians are more likely than straight women to have a masculine finger ratio, says McFadden.
The data in men, however, are more complicated and contradictory. Some studies have shown hypermasculine finger length in gay men, while other studies show the opposite, a female-like finger pattern. The picture is further muddied by geography. Race and ethnic differences seem to affect digit ratio, although scientists don’t yet understand how.
Still, even if prenatal testosterone is a factor in homosexuality, it’s unlikely to be the only element. Studies indicate genes wield much influence.
Even as digit ratio research flourishes and more behavioral links are established, the relationships will remain mere statistical correlations until researchers fully understand how sex hormones physically affect the brain. The reigning hypothesis is that testosterone encourages growth in the right side of the brain, while inhibiting growth in the left. Animal models using rats, mice and sheep show that testosterone boosts growth in a part of the hypothalamus involved in sexual behavior and fertility. In sheep, males with hypermasculinized brains are sexually attracted to other males."

psychologytoday.com/articles/200506/sexuality-your-telltale-fingertips
 
Intriguingly, research shows that a prenatal testosterone level is most strongly linked to homosexuality in women, according to an article in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. Lesbians are more likely than straight women to have a masculine finger ratio, says McFadden.
But here in lies the problem. Unless one can show a certain 100% link between physical traits and psychological traits, then one hasn’t truly demonstrated that the two are related. To say that most of the so called “lesbian” females that were selected happened to have a masculine finger ratio is not really evidence of a biological link since a portion evidently didn’t have a masculine finger ratio and yet were still lesbian. This means that figure ratio had nothing to do with why some women are lesbian. Quite frankly, the data is inconclusive and suggests possible bias in how these people were selected in the first place. I also have a problem with this idea that “sensitivity” in boys is a sign of homosexuality, as if to say that sensitivity is an exclusive trait of females. I just think this is wrong. I think males are taught to be less sensitive due to cultural influences and beliefs.
 
There is a type of wild duck that seems to solve a reproductive issue by the use of SSA of male ducks. Two males will develope a pair bond and then steal eggs from the surrounding nests. The male pairs are able to protect a wider area than the male/female pairs thus offering a means for the species to increase it’s population.

I think this behaviour is successfull due to the hardships of the environment the bird is adapted to. Perhaps it is a response to preserve the species to a slowly diminishing natural environment happening now or in the past.

I think for the ducks the opening question is answered in the affirmative for the lower animals.

I think since humans possess powers that makes available an additional environment not available to other species, and that this environment offers alternative solutions to reproductive issues that are distinctly human, SSA attraction is an adaptation that lacks meaning in the human dimension of sexual reproduction.
 
There is a type of wild duck that seems to solve a reproductive issue by the use of SSA of male ducks. Two males will develope a pair bond and then steal eggs from the surrounding nests. The male pairs are able to protect a wider area than the male/female pairs thus offering a means for the species to increase it’s population.

I think this behaviour is successfull due to the hardships of the environment the bird is adapted to. Perhaps it is a response to preserve the species to a slowly diminishing natural environment happening now or in the past.

I think for the ducks the opening question is answered in the affirmative for the lower animals.

I think since humans possess powers that makes available an additional environment not available to other species, and that this environment offers alternative solutions to reproductive issues that are distinctly human, SSA attraction is an adaptation that lacks meaning in the human dimension of sexual reproduction.
A fascinating and irrefutable post! 🙂
 
This is a common mistake among uneducated ignorant people. They seem to think that same sex attraction is a “behavior”. It is true that if you have same sex attractions that it is possible that you will relate to the females on tv and try to emulate them as your idols. But there are also straight people who behave like silly girls. There is a difference between “camp” and “SSA”. Some men just enjoy behaving or acting like the silly teenage girls they see on popular TV. I personally find camp behavior annoying and silly. Its got very little to do with having same sex attraction.

It is true that there is a genetic component to SSA. However we must be careful to realize that it doesn’t cause SSA, but rather it makes a person more likely to develop attraction to the same sex. It doesn’t determine by itself what a person will be a attracted to. There are social and experiential factors involved. There is also a topology, in the sense that a person who appears a certain way will likely be treated a certain way by the community he or she belongs to. If you appear flimsy or feminine in anyway, this might give rise to ridicule or some form of social or sexual criticism , exclusion, or lack of respect for you as a female or male person. This can feed the possibility that such a person will developed same sex attraction. Some people are just assumed to be gay before they ever develop attractions, and are treated as gay, and therefore it is not surprising that such a person is likely to develop the type of sexual insecurities that feed the development of SSA.

There are many reasons or combination of reasons why somebody might develop SSA. One theory i find convincing is that sometimes a boy or a girl may desire something in their same sex peer that they feel is missing in them, and that such a desire can turn into a sexual attraction as they grow up.
Well, if something has genes involved they can be activated by hormones in the womb, indeed if something is genetic and influenced by hormones in the womb incomplete change could be caused resulting in incomplete dominance, in sexuality this is called “bisexuality”
I agree that it is more reasonable to suggest that there is a genetic “influence”. I just don’t think thats the only reason why a person develops SSA. I think that a person can carry genetic influencer’s of SSA but still never develop same sex attraction. I think the idea of a “Gay Gene” is proven mythical by the fact that some people are bisexual or a-sexual or have attractions to animals or children. Nobody is suggesting that a “pedophile gene” exists, or that a gene which makes us attracted to animals exists; so why think that its reasonable to say that a gay gene exists?

Again, i agree that there are genetic factors involved, but that is evidently not the whole story.
I don’t think anyone is claim that there is a gene that always makes people gay
It is very difficult to distinguish baby boys and girls apart from their genital organs but older children are certainly more or less masculine or feminine than others in their physique. It would be a strange anomaly if such differences had no counterpart at all in their psychological makeup:

snip
Um, I’m in the 10th percentile for men, does this explain why I was an extremely aggressive child who has traits of both ADHD and Autism? Although in the last year I’ve become meek, mild and sensitive.
But here in lies the problem. Unless one can show a certain 100% link between physical traits and psychological traits, then one hasn’t truly demonstrated that the two are related. To say that most of the so called “lesbian” females that were selected happened to have a masculine finger ratio is not really evidence of a biological link since a portion evidently didn’t have a masculine finger ratio and yet were still lesbian. This means that figure ratio had nothing to do with why some women are lesbian. Quite frankly, the data is inconclusive and suggests possible bias in how these people were selected in the first place. I also have a problem with this idea that “sensitivity” in boys is a sign of homosexuality, as if to say that sensitivity is an exclusive trait of females. I just think this is wrong. I think males are taught to be less sensitive due to cultural influences and beliefs.
Or we could study the link and see if those who do not match are much more easily. You are assuming that there is a solitary cause in SSA, this is an unnecessary assumption.

I think we need a lot more data points
There is a type of wild duck that seems to solve a reproductive issue by the use of SSA of male ducks. Two males will develope a pair bond and then steal eggs from the surrounding nests. The male pairs are able to protect a wider area than the male/female pairs thus offering a means for the species to increase it’s population.

I think this behaviour is successfull due to the hardships of the environment the bird is adapted to. **Perhaps it is a response to preserve the species to a slowly diminishing natural environment happening now or in the past. **

I think for the ducks the opening question is answered in the affirmative for the lower animals.

I think since humans possess powers that makes available an additional environment not available to other species, and that this environment offers alternative solutions to reproductive issues that are distinctly human, SSA attraction is an adaptation that lacks meaning in the human dimension of sexual reproduction.
You mean like what happened causing the evolution of humans?
 
It is very difficult to distinguish baby boys and girls apart from their genital organs but older children are certainly more or less masculine or feminine than others in their physique. It would be a strange anomaly if such differences had no counterpart at all in their psychological makeup:
It is certainly not the sole - or essential - factor! 🙂
 
It is certainly not the sole - or essential - factor! 🙂
My hands are different sizes with different finger lengths, on my left side my index finger is actually longer than my ring finger.
:confused:

How can my fingers know about having different personalities???
 
It is a ruse in disguise and conceived has a deformity or an attribute, it is an accepted manifestation of the effect of higher beings now with differing sinister intent who, through the exploitation of the target’s self caused lack of grace, misuse their natural capabilities in manipulation of those aspects of humans that would normally be receptive to those capabilities for the good of the person. This ability’s main purpose and intent was to aid in the creation of beings, since a good part of the human’s dual nature can be influenced and made to function in a certain manner unawares of the works being done to produce it. The effect is that he feels it is natural for him and characteristic of himself, and so he attempts to identify with it.

The remedy must be obtained exterior by the afflicted who is quite capable of addressing his state through this means. He can rid himself of the effect thereby revealing the ruse. Since deception is involved, the person is being asked to put himself into a form of quarantine of sorts, not trusting what the experiential may offer, but occupying himself through spiritual means thereby addressing the problem at it’s source. Meanwhile he maintains his distance from influencing factors and people and learns to substitute his actions.

Andy
 
My hands are different sizes with different finger lengths, on my left side my index finger is actually longer than my ring finger.
:confused:

How can my fingers know about having different personalities???
They can’t!

“The data in men, however, are more complicated and contradictory. Some studies have shown hypermasculine finger length in gay men, while other studies show the opposite, a female-like finger pattern.” 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top