Is it objectively meaningful and functionally correct to class Same Sex Attraction as a genuine form of human Sexuality?

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They can’t!

“The data in men, however, are more complicated and contradictory. Some studies have shown hypermasculine finger length in gay men, while other studies show the opposite, a female-like finger pattern.” 🙂
Hey Tonyrey, do you agree with the idea that gay people have bad eye to hand coordination (can’t throw) and thus are naturally bad at sports?

That sounds to me like the most ridiculous pile of poo poo i have ever heard.🙂
 
Actually I was talking about the evolution that separated us from the apes
I think it’s possibly an adaptation something like the ducks but the environment that is diminishing is the one structured on the bonds of family. As the social structures provided by the matrimonial bond diminish, the social structures that flow from the maternal bond replace them. As the maternal environment becomes less structured on the matrimonial bond it becomes less structured on bonds that require the exercise of intellect. Human society loses what makes it distinctly human. It’s structures, in the absence of the matrimonial bond, will flow from the maternal bond like the rest of the mammals.

I believe it’s possible that as the maternal environment provided by the matrimonial bond increasingly lacks the human dimension the human bodies affinity with the lower animals in it’s need to survive offers solutions to what lacks in kind with the lower animals.
 
I think it’s possibly an adaptation something like the ducks but the environment that is diminishing is the one structured on the bonds of family. As the social structures provided by the matrimonial bond diminish, the social structures that flow from the maternal bond replace them. As the maternal environment becomes less structured on the matrimonial bond it becomes less structured on bonds that require the exercise of intellect. Human society loses what makes it distinctly human. It’s structures, in the absence of the matrimonial bond, will flow from the maternal bond like the rest of the mammals.

I believe it’s possible that as the maternal environment provided by the matrimonial bond increasingly lacks the human dimension the human bodies affinity with the lower animals in it’s need to survive offers solutions to what lacks in kind with the lower animals.
It interesting that the percentages of incidence of homosexuality are pretty much the same across time and culture. There have been some interesting findings, such as increasing incidence with increasing pregnancy which is believed to correspond with hormone levels which increase with pregnancy rate. There are also some intriguing genetic studies. Nothing is conclusive at this point.
 
Heterosexuality also carries disease. STD effects everybody. I think you should drop that line of argument.
Nature provides certain defenses that make intercourse less infectious. Anal sex, whether with a man or woman, is much chancier.
 
Hey Tonyrey, do you agree with the idea that gay people have bad eye to hand coordination (can’t throw) and thus are naturally bad at sports?

That sounds to me like the most ridiculous pile of poo poo i have ever heard.🙂
It’s absurd to generalise about people who have one thing in common unless it is clearly related to it!
 
Nature provides certain defenses that make intercourse less infectious. Anal sex, whether with a man or woman, is much chancier.
That is not entirely true with STD’s. Race seems to play a role For example, Japanese are extremely unlikely to contract HIV with anal or vaginal intercourse while Africans are in a high risk population for HIV infection regardless of form of sexual activity.

Other STD’s such as syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, HPV seem to be about equally likely with any form of intercourse.

Are you able to elaborate on your statement to explain what you mean by “much chancier” odds of transmission with anal sex?

I also think that your claim has not much to do with the subject of this thread.
 
It interesting that the percentages of incidence of homosexuality are pretty much the same across time and culture. There have been some interesting findings, such as increasing incidence with increasing pregnancy which is believed to correspond with hormone levels which increase with pregnancy rate. There are also some intriguing genetic studies. Nothing is conclusive at this point.
So, I wonder which comes first, the hormones or the conceptions?
Well, I believe the way men relate to women < I mean what was natural to it. What characarized it, what distinguished it?What satisfies it’s need to be fulfilled? All these were found and established in the recesses of history as well as each human psyche. We are still hunter gatherers at heart imo. What men and women seek to be was established long ago, and although veiled by layers of history it hasn’t changed.

As much as we try to fake it, we don’t live in the same environment that provided the stimulus that satisfies and defines what men and woimen seek to be for one another as procreaters.
 
So, I wonder which comes first, the hormones or the conceptions?
Well, I believe the way men relate to women < I mean what was natural to it. What characarized it, what distinguished it?What satisfies it’s need to be fulfilled? All these were found and established in the recesses of history as well as each human psyche. We are still hunter gatherers at heart imo. What men and women seek to be was established long ago, and although veiled by layers of history it hasn’t changed.

As much as we try to fake it, we don’t live in the same environment that provided the stimulus that satisfies and defines what men and woimen seek to be for one another as procreaters.
Many homosexual men and women have the desire to raise a family. This is shown by adoption rates. The procreation urge you bring up may be common among all sexual orientations.
 
Are you able to elaborate on your statement to explain what you mean by “much chancier” odds of transmission with anal sex?
There is a much greater chance of skin rupturing with anal intercourse because the body was not designed for this kind of act. The female vagina is lubricated to make penetration easy, it’s what it was designed for. Not so with the the anus, which is why damage can occur, which makes transmission of any infection into the blood stream more likely.
 
Many homosexual men and women have the desire to raise a family. This is shown by adoption rates. The procreation urge you bring up may be common among all sexual orientations.
Yup. That’s why I bring up the male ducks that pairbond because two males can guard more eggs. I think most same sex couples believe they could guard more eggs too.
 
Yup. That’s why I bring up the male ducks that pairbond because two males can guard more eggs. I think most same sex couples believe they could guard more eggs too.
… and duck eggs are delicious. There is the temptation to anthropomorphize, yet was are all biological systems with DNA more similar than dissimilar among species. One thing that we definitely know is that human sexuality, libido, reproductive urges, are far more complex than those who have an ideological position to prove. The arguments are not so simple because there are still more questions than there are answers.
 
That is not entirely true with STD’s. Race seems to play a role For example, Japanese are extremely unlikely to contract HIV with anal or vaginal intercourse while Africans are in a high risk population for HIV infection regardless of form of sexual activity.

Other STD’s such as syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea, HPV seem to be about equally likely with any form of intercourse.

Are you able to elaborate on your statement to explain what you mean by “much chancier” odds of transmission with anal sex?

I also think that your claim has not much to do with the subject of this thread.
For one thing, “race” is really about culture, and the personal habits --eg. cleanliness, aggressiveness etc)) of the people involved. But the anus was never intended to be used for sexual purposes, nor was the mouth. So whatever results natural selection has produced are easily frustrated by the sex “games” that people choose to play. But it all boils down to the fact that we really don’t care what “works” best for the health of the population. The fact is that suppression of urges and limitation of sexual activity, like temperance is most matters, is better for the greatest number than the intemperance that the modern age worships.
 
… and duck eggs are delicious. There is the temptation to anthropomorphize, yet was are all biological systems with DNA more similar than dissimilar among species. One thing that we definitely know is that human sexuality, libido, reproductive urges, are far more complex than those who have an ideological position to prove. The arguments are not so simple because there are still more questions than there are answers.
But gay activists are not interested in biology, but in an ideology. Ideologues don’t like anyone who questions them. This is why they are trying to suppress any discussion about the morality of homosexuality.
 
Is it objectively meaningful and functionally correct to class Same Sex Attraction as a genuine form of human Sexuality?
Same Sex attraction exists as a form of human behaviour, and its very existence means it is a genuine form of human nature. However, the notion of objectivity when ascribed to a concept usually means that the behaviour can be observed as something mind independent. Considering how SSA has been observed down through the annals of recorded history, that it exists as an identifiable human behaviour means that, yes, objectively, it is a form of human behaviour. That, however, does not touch on the ‘normalcy’ of that behaviour. Nor does it touch on the ‘truthfullness’ of the stated fact, as the empricists often demand of objectivity. The ‘truthfullness’, or the ‘rightness’ and ‘wrongness’ of SSA because of its accepted objective existence, is meaningless. That requires a whole other debate, which others here have launched straight into.

When we consider that human behaviours like mass murder and paedophilia also have existed down through recorded history, we can objectively state that such behaviours exist. Again, however, the objectivity of the behaviour says nothing about its normalcy.

To arrive at conclusions about its percieved ‘normalcy’, we then need to introduce the concept of universality. In just about all the studies one can find and analyse, as a percentage of any given population, SSA seems to have a fixed figure, quite small. Thus its universality is questionable.

It is interesting that you have brought into the debate questions pertaining to objectivity, when the proponents of SSA and homosexuality seem to bend over backwards to deny the existence of objectivity!
By function and objectivity i mean, does it follow coherently from the fact that i am a “man” that i should or could be homosexual or bisexual? Is bisexuality or homosexuality a coherent expression of the gender identity that is a man or a women?
When you ask about the ‘functional’ aspect of SSA, or homosexuality, are you referring to the organism displaying the behaviour, or to the social context within it resides? Some here have attempted to explain the behaviour in a social context. Others have attempted to explain the behaviour from the organisms standpoint. In terms of the wider social context, the function of the behaviour is difficult to explain. There seems to be no rational explanation, no readily identifiable coherency to the expression of the behaviour, only many theories. In terms of the organism displaying the behaviour, it would seem that the behaviour serves a function that is coherent to the organism itself and only to the organism.

Objectively, SSA is an identifiable human behaviour. Functionally, it’s purpose is elusive. The study of its functionality tends to behaviourism and thus its conclusions are then based on the issue of personal dispositions and there ‘normalcy’ once again. If that is the case, then objectively, SSA is a disorder…
 
… and duck eggs are delicious. There is the temptation to anthropomorphize, yet was are all biological systems with DNA more similar than dissimilar among species. One thing that we definitely know is that human sexuality, libido, reproductive urges, are far more complex than those who have an ideological position to prove. The arguments are not so simple because there are still more questions than there are answers.
It’s not complex with the male pairbonded ducks. The behaviour successfully helps the ducks keep more of the baby ducks they produce from being killed. This is the argument used by same sex couples to allow them to adopt. But the violence is against the soul for humans not the flesh like animals. It’s complex for humans because humans are fallen. There exists for humans another realm with another kind of death to avoid that doesn’t pertain to animals.
 
For one thing, “race” is really about culture, and the personal habits --eg. cleanliness, aggressiveness etc)) of the people involved. But the anus was never intended to be used for sexual purposes, nor was the mouth. So whatever results natural selection has produced are easily frustrated by the sex “games” that people choose to play. But it all boils down to the fact that we really don’t care what “works” best for the health of the population. The fact is that suppression of urges and limitation of sexual activity, like temperance is most matters, is better for the greatest number than the intemperance that the modern age worships.
No, I was referring to race, not culture. There are diseases whose transmissiblity is affected by genetics. HIV is one of those. Sickle Cell is another. Tay Sach. There are some rare muscular dystrophies which are genetic occur primarily among certain nationalities and races. With HIV, in particular, women of African descent have a much higher transmission rate than other racial heritages. Some Asians appear to have an extremely low transmission rate with the same sexual behavior.
 
It’s not complex with the male pairbonded ducks. The behaviour successfully helps the ducks keep more of the baby ducks they produce from being killed. This is the argument used by same sex couples to allow them to adopt. But the violence is against the soul for humans not the flesh like animals. It’s complex for humans because humans are fallen. There exists for humans another realm with another kind of death to avoid that doesn’t pertain to animals.
I still say that duck eggs are delicious.

Make the arguments as complex as you like. The simple biological imperative remains. That imperative is only simple conceptually. The mechanics are still only partially understood. I am unconvinced that talk about violence against the soul is relevant to discussion of primal biological impulses. That is a bit like talking about the requirements to fly the space shuttles in a discussion of whether oranges are delicious.

I’ll buy the adultery argument. The homo argument just doesn’t fly with me from anyone who eats shellfish. For that matter, popes liked to eat whale meat during lent. I never met a whale with scales, if we are talking abominable acts.
 
Heterosexuality also carries disease. STD effects everybody. I think you should drop that line of argument.
Only the disordered use of sexuality by heterosexuals increases the risk of STD infections. This line of reasoning needs developing and explaining more fully. :rolleyes:
 
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