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bluezone7
Guest
God bless you … and Amen!
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
LittleDeb,
LittleDeb:
Since the Church takes this approach, I think Catholics should also attempt to protect the sanctity of marriage in sharing in this same presumption for validity until proper authorities have adjudicated otherwise.
Of course, this is easy for me to say now, but when I got married, I wasn’t even going to Mass, and I lived with my future wife, an atheist, even before we were married. Looking back upon the decisions we made in the past, when our consciences were less informed, can be humbling. But God draws good even out of the dumb choices we make. That atheist I shacked up with then eventually married questioned me without end for the next seven years on Catholicism, which made me study Catholicism further, which led to her conversion and my re-version to Catholicism. God places people in our path for a reason, and my wife was the one person God had in mind for me well before the creation of the world.
The best we can do is inform our conscience, then follow it, even if that involves pain. My conscience has been wrong in the past and will likely be wrong again, but so long as I accept the Now and place my trust in God, I think I’ll do ok.
I believe there is a cross to carry for each of us. Some of us never carry the “divorced” cross, but unfortunately many do. Our crosses sometimes seem unfair to us and we push it away instead of embrace it in the manner Christ embraced His cross. We all have moments in our lives when the agony of our cross brings great sorrow, just as Christ had such moments. For example, the wife of a friend of mine divorced him contrary to his wishes, and now he lives a celibate life until his wife is deceased and he is free to date again. While there have been women who have expressed interest in dating him, he told them he was still married according to his faith and was not able to date. This is a tough cross to carry, but I admire him for embracing it.
When carrying our cross, whatever it may be, I believe it is helpful to keep these words of Archbishop Fulton Sheen in mind, “divine wisdom can draw good out of evil - the human mind must develop acceptance of the Now, no matter how hard it may be for us to understand its freight of pain.” (Archbishop Fulton Sheen, From the Angel’s Blackboard)
I understand. This presumption of validity across the board by the Church is, in her judgement I think, necessary to protect the sanctity of marriage, which applies to all mankind, not just Catholics. I believe the Church understands that at times, it may error with regard to particular cases when it makes this broad presumption. Without knowing the facts of a particular case, however, it is better to err on the side of validity.
Since the Church takes this approach, I think Catholics should also attempt to protect the sanctity of marriage in sharing in this same presumption for validity until proper authorities have adjudicated otherwise.
Of course, this is easy for me to say now, but when I got married, I wasn’t even going to Mass, and I lived with my future wife, an atheist, even before we were married. Looking back upon the decisions we made in the past, when our consciences were less informed, can be humbling. But God draws good even out of the dumb choices we make. That atheist I shacked up with then eventually married questioned me without end for the next seven years on Catholicism, which made me study Catholicism further, which led to her conversion and my re-version to Catholicism. God places people in our path for a reason, and my wife was the one person God had in mind for me well before the creation of the world.
The best we can do is inform our conscience, then follow it, even if that involves pain. My conscience has been wrong in the past and will likely be wrong again, but so long as I accept the Now and place my trust in God, I think I’ll do ok.
I agree that the annulment process is terribly drawn out and painful. Some might say it’s rather purgatorial. However, a quick and easy anullment process would worry me even more.
I believe there is a cross to carry for each of us. Some of us never carry the “divorced” cross, but unfortunately many do. Our crosses sometimes seem unfair to us and we push it away instead of embrace it in the manner Christ embraced His cross. We all have moments in our lives when the agony of our cross brings great sorrow, just as Christ had such moments. For example, the wife of a friend of mine divorced him contrary to his wishes, and now he lives a celibate life until his wife is deceased and he is free to date again. While there have been women who have expressed interest in dating him, he told them he was still married according to his faith and was not able to date. This is a tough cross to carry, but I admire him for embracing it.
When carrying our cross, whatever it may be, I believe it is helpful to keep these words of Archbishop Fulton Sheen in mind, “divine wisdom can draw good out of evil - the human mind must develop acceptance of the Now, no matter how hard it may be for us to understand its freight of pain.” (Archbishop Fulton Sheen, From the Angel’s Blackboard)
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
As for dating a non-Catholic, I married an atheist and she made me more Catholic. Others I know married Catholics and subsequently left the Church.
The issue reminds me of a conversation with a friend of mine regarding whether or not to send your kids to Catholic schools. He was against Catholics schools because they were not Catholic enough. He worried about having to un-teach the errors being taught as Catholicism. I, on the other hand, thought Catholic schools, as erroneous as they can be, are more Catholic than public schools. But in the end, I believe that we can be surrounded by angels of the Lord and still reject God, or be surrounded by demons and still accept God.
Likewise, Catholics can have the best catechesis while growing up and marry a living saint and still they decide to reject Catholicism. Non-Catholics who may have been surrounded by anti-Catholic bias all their lives might still come to embrace Catholicism. God works in mysterious ways.
Your conscience is the “aboriginal Vicar of Christ” according the Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman. It is there that God speaks to you. Listen to what God is telling you. Never stop informing your conscience, and always follow it.
The issue reminds me of a conversation with a friend of mine regarding whether or not to send your kids to Catholic schools. He was against Catholics schools because they were not Catholic enough. He worried about having to un-teach the errors being taught as Catholicism. I, on the other hand, thought Catholic schools, as erroneous as they can be, are more Catholic than public schools. But in the end, I believe that we can be surrounded by angels of the Lord and still reject God, or be surrounded by demons and still accept God.
Likewise, Catholics can have the best catechesis while growing up and marry a living saint and still they decide to reject Catholicism. Non-Catholics who may have been surrounded by anti-Catholic bias all their lives might still come to embrace Catholicism. God works in mysterious ways.
Your conscience is the “aboriginal Vicar of Christ” according the Ven. John Henry Cardinal Newman. It is there that God speaks to you. Listen to what God is telling you. Never stop informing your conscience, and always follow it.
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LSK
Guest
Heart Of Mary:
I do think you have the right to ask her about her ideas concerning this type of belief system, so you can make a better decision for yourself.
However, the fact is according to your Church she is a married woman.
I think you have to chose between your beliefs and your desire. It is a tough one … pray for the grace to make the right and moral decision.
If she petitioned the Church for an annulment it would be considered, but I wonder why she would? No offense meant but if she does not believe in the need for annulling her marriage then there may be a problem here.
I do think you have the right to ask her about her ideas concerning this type of belief system, so you can make a better decision for yourself.
However, the fact is according to your Church she is a married woman.
I think you have to chose between your beliefs and your desire. It is a tough one … pray for the grace to make the right and moral decision.
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LSK
Guest
oh - and one more thing - never stop informing your conscience…and NEVER stop trying to FORM it in accordance with the Will of God.
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lifeisbeautiful
Guest
Hi Little Deb!
This is what Canon Law says:
Can. 1060 Marriage enjoys the favor of law. Consequently, in doubt the validity of a marriage must be upheld until the contrary is proven.
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Celeste88
Guest
I know of several couples in which one was non Catholic and their marriages are just fine. And there is always the possibility that the non Catholic could convert to Catholicism.DO NOT DATE A NON-CATHOLIC!!! I married a non-catholic…he made it seem that he respected my religion etc., we even married in the catholic church, unfortunately they do not hold marriage in the same regard that we do, as a sacrament. They do believe in divorce…in multiple divorces, because they can marry as many times as they want in their church…see what I’m saying? Also, when our son was born we got into it because I wanted to baptize him and he didn’t believe in that etc. He knew from the very beginning that I would want this for our children he never opposed until after we married and had our child. It’s a headache, if I could do it all again I would NEVER even consider dating anyone who wasn’t catholic. Marriage is hard enough and religion is something fundamental to it…when you don’t see eye to eye on this subject it’s like a house built on sand and it’s worse when they don’t see the committment of marriage the same way you do, the way the church teaches. I would recommend that you get away fast, please don’t let your “feelings” take over your intellect and intelligence like I did, it’s hell in the long run.
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LittleDeb
Guest
Thank you for the exact canon. I didn’t remember exactly the wording from 5 years ago. (I still need to get a good canon law book!)
I never said I disagree with it in theory. I have a problem in practice. It seems to make no sense to take years to decide nullity when there are non-Catholics involved.
Example: In the criminal justice system every case goes through a pre-trial hearing. It is to determine if there is enough evidence to go to trial. If so, then all witnesses make, large formal statements. The pre-trial hearing, while formal does not get down to the nitty gritty.
In annulments you go through a ton of work first, then know if you have a formal case. In my husband’s case the only reason for a formal case was his former wife’s childhood baptism. If there had been a pre-trial hearing to help understand what each side was investigating, it would not have been so long and drawn out.
My whole point on this involves non-Catholics. Your average non-Catholic is not going to go through all that just to date someone! Yes to marry someone. It is usually difficult but still accepted by the non-Catholic side. Those of us who dated a divorced non-Catholic have very well formed consciences. This particular person just happened to be the one for us.
My problem is just with the length of time to investigate by the Tribunal. I completely agree that all marriages are presumed valid until examined. My point is that non-Catholics should not be held to the level of scrutiny of a Catholic.
Another example: During very early processes, questions boiled down to very basic questions. Did you contracept? Did you believe you could divorce and be free of the marriage? If many questions like those were answered ‘yes’ then the case was immediately put in for declaration of nullity. It was only if those basic questions didn’t prove it, then the long process started.
While there were many drawbacks to this style in dealing with Catholics, it was much easier for a former Protestant or non religious to join the Church. At this point, a person who enters RCIA in the fall, cannot join the Church that spring if they are going through an annulment. It isn’t done in time. That is where I have the problem.
The current process prohibits non-Catholics from moving forward in their lives. It is not a validity issue. It is a red tape problem.
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RichT
Guest
Sorry to hear about your personal experiences. I’m glad you weren’t giving my wife to be advice as she would not have married me a non-catholic at the time. She did marry me, however, and wouldn’t you know it, I am now a catholic! Seems your advice would have ruined a potentialy wonderful marriage had it been given to my wife to be. Your experiences are not always the same as everyone elses.DO NOT DATE A NON-CATHOLIC!!! I married a non-catholic…he made it seem that he respected my religion etc., we even married in the catholic church, unfortunately they do not hold marriage in the same regard that we do, as a sacrament. They do believe in divorce…in multiple divorces, because they can marry as many times as they want in their church…see what I’m saying? Also, when our son was born we got into it because I wanted to baptize him and he didn’t believe in that etc. He knew from the very beginning that I would want this for our children he never opposed until after we married and had our child. It’s a headache, if I could do it all again I would NEVER even consider dating anyone who wasn’t catholic. Marriage is hard enough and religion is something fundamental to it…when you don’t see eye to eye on this subject it’s like a house built on sand and it’s worse when they don’t see the committment of marriage the same way you do, the way the church teaches. I would recommend that you get away fast, please don’t let your “feelings” take over your intellect and intelligence like I did, it’s hell in the long run
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PiusXIII
Guest
What’s the best way to bring this up? I mean wording-wise? Does anyone have experience with bringing this up with a divorced Protestant significant other? I don’t want to do what someone I know did and mistakenly refer to it as a “Catholic divorce.” I’m not sure the best way to explain it. Should I have literature handy?
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otm
Guest
Perhaps what would be best is getting yourself educated on the issue; a Catholic bookstore whould have at tleast one of several books on the annulment procedure.
It would seem that you need to be asking more than just about the possibility of annument in her case, however; you seem to be overlooking a whole series of questions.
I don’t suggest that you hit her with all the questions at once, but it would be smart on your part (and hers) to get through most of them early on. If you find stumbling blocks in the process, better now than when you are so emotionally involved that you can’t find a wy to untangle - or worse, are not willing to find a way to untangle.
Go re-read my post #9 if you want some of the questions you should be discussing.
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LittleDeb
Guest
Part of the conversation between my husband and I started on the phone before our first date. I explained that my Catholic beliefs were a core of who I was. I explained that some people don’t fully understand some of the teachings (both Catholic and non-Catholic!) and might not like some of it. I told him that anything he wanted to know about my beliefs, he could ask. I said, “It is hard to offend me so ask away!” Since I had said things like, “As a Catholic I hold things like human life, marriage,and responsiblity for our own actions extremely high. When I make a mistake, I will own up to it,” I had some ground to stand on.
I will admit, I never did say, “I’ve never been married before, have you?” Thinking back maybe I would have. But the Holy Spirit didn’t prompt me and I didn’t ask. In His infinite wisdom it was better. I might have turned this incredible man down for the date which turned out to be the most important date of my life!
I agree, get the ball rolling by educating yourself. I knew a lot about annulments through researching for a friend so I could answer most of his questions right then. He told me he had been married before and I was able to explain that it put me into a difficult situation. I said that I was really interested in dating him, but as far as I knew he might still be married in the eyes of God. It opened the door for him to listen because I wasn’t lecturing him for his mistake, I was showing sadness at being unable to date him. By the end of hearing about what an annulment really was, HE was asking ME how to get one!
The focus I would have in my mind if I were you is on what an anullment is and also what it is not. I would emphasize that a divorce is about your personal state coming out of a marriage. An annulment is about your personal state when entering a marriage. For my husband it was painful to revisit the “red flags he missed before marriage,” but they were more helpful for him to understand than the breakdown within the marriage.
IOW he knew why he got divorced, what he didn’t know was that he might never have married in the eyes of God in the first place. That was the part that was very healing. The idea that God MIGHT not have joined them as one flesh was comforting since he never felt joined during the marriage. I would say, another way to bring it up is to ask about the other’s definition of marriage. If you can’t talk about that before you date or on a first date, then the person is probably not the one for you.
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PiusXIII
Guest
Just a follow-up on this. I had prayed about it a lot. I think I got my answer to the prayer last week and I do not believe that God wants me to be with this divorced Protestant woman. It hurts and is difficult to accept but I’m trying to take the attitude that maybe God has a beautiful orthodox Catholic woman waiting for me.
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stbruno
Guest
I recommend reading this book by Joshua Harris…it’s called.
I kissed dating goodbye. Plug it your google search. It’s available everywhere, but before you purchase it, scan the table of contents. I think this is an invaluable tool for those who are dating.
I kissed dating goodbye. Plug it your google search. It’s available everywhere, but before you purchase it, scan the table of contents. I think this is an invaluable tool for those who are dating.
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rubycanoe
Guest
I guess a lot of these posts are a suprise to me!! I have been Catholic all my life and noone ever told me not to date a divorced person. My husband was divorced and was raised protestant. The only thing ever said was in the classes before marriage with my priest. He thought my husband might have to get an annulment, which we were surprised to find out. It happens his first wife was Catholic but they were not married in a Catholic church or by a priest, so it was invalid, thus no need for an annulment. So we got married in the Catholic church.
But I do agree with some of the posters as not knowing about the past of the divorced person, but I think this could happen with a single person also. Also he has not turned Catholic , but I have become a much, much ,stronger and more faithful Catholic and continue to pray for him also.
But I do agree with some of the posters as not knowing about the past of the divorced person, but I think this could happen with a single person also. Also he has not turned Catholic , but I have become a much, much ,stronger and more faithful Catholic and continue to pray for him also.
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tjmiller
Guest
It’s very simple: don’t date someone you wouldn’t marry.
Every vaildly contracted marriage between two baptized Christians is a Sacrament indissoluble except by the death of one of the contracting parties.
Jesus taught that those who divorce a spouse and re-marry commit adultery.
To date a divorced protestant, therefore, is to approach the threshold of adultery.
Every vaildly contracted marriage between two baptized Christians is a Sacrament indissoluble except by the death of one of the contracting parties.
Jesus taught that those who divorce a spouse and re-marry commit adultery.
To date a divorced protestant, therefore, is to approach the threshold of adultery.
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bones_IV
Guest
Well, protestants do not hold the same ideas of marriage we do. They view it differently. Date a non-Catholic? NO DON’T DO IT! BAD IDEA. I say from the perspective that why would you waste your time dating somebody who doesn’t hold the same religious views as you? And another thing, I know because a nun told me this. She told me that there are terrible divorce rates in mixed families and many of them can’t even agree on which Church to go to. I WOULDN’T ADVISE IT!
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idoqna
Guest
I just entered onto this forum and read this thread. I thought it very interesting.
I am a “Baptist.” Now, I put that in quotes for a reason. I was baptized as a Baptist around age 7, same age as First Communion for a Catholic. My whole family was Baptist. Over my lifetime I’ve been happy. Throughout my life I was taught that marriage is sacred and never thought otherwise. Never believed in divorce unless there were dire circumstances, of which my mother and father had those circumstances after 31 years of marriage. When I married, I married for life. I don’t think my husband, who was baptized but did not practice any denomination, understood that sanctity. You can be unevenly yoked even as a Protestant. If you marry someone that does not have the same basic tenets as you, wants to go to church, etc., you can still end up in divorce.
You can also end up with terrible secrets if you date/marry a single person. Many singles don’t tell you everything. If dark secrets are brought out in premarital counseling, they’re going to be brought out whether the people are divorced are single.
What I really wanted to comment about is this guy’s query. As I said, I’m a “Baptist.” When I started dating…yes, dating…my Catholic divorced boyfriend, I knew he was Catholic. Even being Baptist, though, I had a great understanding of all denominations and even most of the Catholic beliefs. In my private school they taught all these. So, I wasn’t ever prejudiced against Catholics.
One of the first things we did, though, the first weekend we met was go to mass. He is the music person there. It was one of the most impressive services I had ever been at. I followed along with the singing and did things I felt comfortable in doing during the mass. The next thing I did was go out and buy “Catholicism for Dummies.” This is a great tutorial on Catholicism. Many things I was reading the gentleman I was seeing didn’t know because he was a cradle Catholic. I then read Scott Hahn books, etc.
I, on my own, went to start the annulment process. My boyfriend had no clue I had done that. We were about three months into our relationship and I decided on my own that that was the right thing to do.
So, why did I place “Baptist” in quotes? I am more Catholic now than I am Baptist although I haven’t been able to take RCIA yet and “come back to the Church.” It’s not converting. It’s coming back to the Church because we were all originally Catholic to begin with if you read the books. Am I going to do so? Yes. Am I happy going to mass and wishing I could take the Eucharist? Yes. I can’t wait for that day. Do I long for my Baptist church? No.
Is my daughter a Baptist or a Catholic? She went to the Baptist church until I started dating Joe. Within a few months I told her if she wanted to become Catholic she needed to be baptized. She was around 5 then. She exclaimed, “I AM Catholic.” Shortly thereafter she went to my boyfriend and told him she’d like to be baptized as a Cahtolic. She was around 6 then. His brother and sister-in-law are her godparents.
Even though we haven’t either one received our annulments yet, we still are a couple. He stopped taking Communion, which he was required to do.
I know many other couples who have split Protestant/Catholic marriages who have taken the steps to getting annulments and coming into the Church.
So, I just wanted to say, for someone reading this thread and has the same problem as the originator, it isn’t dire. God works in ways we never know. I had started questioning my Baptist roots long ago. I believe God gave me a wonderful Catholic man to help me find my way home.
Peace be with you!
Steph
I am a “Baptist.” Now, I put that in quotes for a reason. I was baptized as a Baptist around age 7, same age as First Communion for a Catholic. My whole family was Baptist. Over my lifetime I’ve been happy. Throughout my life I was taught that marriage is sacred and never thought otherwise. Never believed in divorce unless there were dire circumstances, of which my mother and father had those circumstances after 31 years of marriage. When I married, I married for life. I don’t think my husband, who was baptized but did not practice any denomination, understood that sanctity. You can be unevenly yoked even as a Protestant. If you marry someone that does not have the same basic tenets as you, wants to go to church, etc., you can still end up in divorce.
You can also end up with terrible secrets if you date/marry a single person. Many singles don’t tell you everything. If dark secrets are brought out in premarital counseling, they’re going to be brought out whether the people are divorced are single.
What I really wanted to comment about is this guy’s query. As I said, I’m a “Baptist.” When I started dating…yes, dating…my Catholic divorced boyfriend, I knew he was Catholic. Even being Baptist, though, I had a great understanding of all denominations and even most of the Catholic beliefs. In my private school they taught all these. So, I wasn’t ever prejudiced against Catholics.
One of the first things we did, though, the first weekend we met was go to mass. He is the music person there. It was one of the most impressive services I had ever been at. I followed along with the singing and did things I felt comfortable in doing during the mass. The next thing I did was go out and buy “Catholicism for Dummies.” This is a great tutorial on Catholicism. Many things I was reading the gentleman I was seeing didn’t know because he was a cradle Catholic. I then read Scott Hahn books, etc.
I, on my own, went to start the annulment process. My boyfriend had no clue I had done that. We were about three months into our relationship and I decided on my own that that was the right thing to do.
So, why did I place “Baptist” in quotes? I am more Catholic now than I am Baptist although I haven’t been able to take RCIA yet and “come back to the Church.” It’s not converting. It’s coming back to the Church because we were all originally Catholic to begin with if you read the books. Am I going to do so? Yes. Am I happy going to mass and wishing I could take the Eucharist? Yes. I can’t wait for that day. Do I long for my Baptist church? No.
Is my daughter a Baptist or a Catholic? She went to the Baptist church until I started dating Joe. Within a few months I told her if she wanted to become Catholic she needed to be baptized. She was around 5 then. She exclaimed, “I AM Catholic.” Shortly thereafter she went to my boyfriend and told him she’d like to be baptized as a Cahtolic. She was around 6 then. His brother and sister-in-law are her godparents.
Even though we haven’t either one received our annulments yet, we still are a couple. He stopped taking Communion, which he was required to do.
I know many other couples who have split Protestant/Catholic marriages who have taken the steps to getting annulments and coming into the Church.
So, I just wanted to say, for someone reading this thread and has the same problem as the originator, it isn’t dire. God works in ways we never know. I had started questioning my Baptist roots long ago. I believe God gave me a wonderful Catholic man to help me find my way home.
Peace be with you!
Steph
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FrankR
Guest
Since the church does not recognize the marriage of non-Catholics It seems that you are perfectly fine dating her, divorced or not.
I was told by the marriage tribunal the my ex-wifes first marriage was of no consequence due to the fact that they were married outside of the church. Unfortunately for me that means my marriage to her was a sacrament, and will require a full formal investigation for annulment. So if this is true, then logic seems to suggest that you are free to do anything you want with her.
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tjmiller
Guest
Every validly contracted marriage between two baptized Christians is a Sacrament, and therefore indissoluble except by the death of one or both of the contracting parties.
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