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tonyrey
Guest
God can do anything He wants and He wants us to be free to love Him. That is His first priority because without freedom we would be incapable of love…
Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?
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jossebastian
Guest
There are 2 words in Hebrew, Gehanna, and Sheol, both translated as Hell. *Sheol *is more like underworld (or even purgatory) and *Gehenna *eternal hell. This is what I understand.
Jos
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John_Martin
Guest
Here is how you “lose your free-will” - Free-Will is about choosing “activities”, choosing to “do” or to “not do” something. But the soul makes its “doing” and “not doing” through moving the body. But the body is gone, dead, decaying, so the soul no longer has anything to act with, to move into deeds done or not done.
Once separated from its body, the soul is powerless to do good or do evil anymore, thus powerless to say the words “I repent” with its body’s mouth, because the mouth is no longer there.
Until the resurrection, there is no “action”, no movement by the will into deeds.
John Martin
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John_Martin
Guest
Sorry, Bahman, we are discussing the Christian God, - there is nothing but “Pass” or “Fail”, there is no percentage, no grading curve of comparison. Heaven and Purgatory are a Pass grade’s end, Hell is the Fail grade’s end.
I am not sure what teacher taught you about God this way that you know so little and proudly assert it.
John Martin
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tonyrey
Guest
Choosing to love does not require physical activity because our states of mind are not always caused by what happens to our body nor do they always cause movement. We can repent without having to say anything!
1 Samuel 16:7
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John_Martin
Guest
“Will” is the love of something perceived. Free Will is the choice “to unite” to the beloved.
The body is the instrument of the human action of uniting to something loved. Thus, we love Jesus and wish to unite to him and with our bodies eat what he says is his body. Without our body "chewing and swallowing, we do not take him in to our self.
Love without action (by the body) to unite is frustrated, wishing for union but not able to attain it.
We cannot repent without “bearing fruit that befits repentance”, or we are then children of vipers if we think we can be repentant without doing justice to others through actions of our bodies.
All the will can do is “desire” (aka: love), but it cannot unite with the desire without driving the body to take hold of the desire and bring it into the bosom.
Even when you say you can “repent without having to do anything”, you are quite mistaken: When you "think the thought ‘I am sorry’ " this thought is in your conscious mind, which is your body (brain) having its various neurons moved by the soul to form the conscious words. Your soul, after death, has no brain to formulate its expression, whether silently in the brain, or even out the mouth in spoken words. Your conscious thoughts are your body moving as moved by your soul.
John Martin
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Aloysium
Guest
I see things differently:
- The spirit is not separate from the body. It isn’t like the wind in the trees. The spirit and body are one in a reality that contains them both, which is the unity of who we are.
- The Saints would not be able to pray for me, if what you say is true.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
ummm. no. . .and that is because He does love, far better than we do.Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.
LOVE!
No, the damned do not, and cannot repent, because they no longer exist in a temporal world, but an eternal one.
in eternity, one does not advance from ‘point A to point B’ in linear ‘time’. Therefore, there is no point in eternity at which a damned person ‘changes’. That is part of the nature of eternity, just as part of the nature of a temporal world is that we change, progress, measure linear time.
So at the point of death, the damned person has, in a sense, ‘all the time in the world’ condensed to a single point where he can say, God’s will be done or ‘MY will be done’. Once he says that, he will, as best as I can express it since I personally have only experienced ‘time’, be saying that choice as kind of an eternal ‘word’ forever.
That is why unrepented mortal sin requires eternal punishment -the sin itself does not ‘cease’ at the time of death. It is not as though say John Doe committed 6 acts of fornication, each lasting about an hour, and knew they were mortal sin, freely chose, and at the moment of death said, “I’m not sorry for these sins or for defying God, I chose this and I would choose it again”. . .
and we go 'oh boo hoo, what a mean god, the guy ONLY committed 6 hours worth of mortal sin in his WHOLE LIFE, and now god is sending him to hell FOREVER". . .
They just don’t seem to realize that the sin did not stop at the end of the act itself, and that the rejection of God and the choice of mortal sin, if not repented, **goes on forever.
**People seem to believe that a person at the point of death would never ‘choose pain and endless torture’ instead of insisting that whatever mortal sin they committed was so important to them that they not only didn’t feel sorrow, but that they would ALWAYS choose that sin and rejection of God, and that eternity being, well, eternal, there would never be ‘time’ again to ‘repent’.
Think about the ‘corollary’ also, if you will. If there were to be linear time and a ‘chance to repent’ for those in hell, then there would be the same for those in heaven, right? Suppose that somebody, out of fear or whatever, said, "I repent’ and went to heaven, and then at some future point said, "Heaven is not enough for me, I can’t stand not having my own way, I can’t stand that I don’t have control’. . .and then THEY would go off to hell.
Don’t think that anybody would be ‘fool’ enough to reject heaven? Then you’ve made people into sheep or robots who just don’t want ‘to be punished’ and so deny their own wills to ‘get a reward’. . .and you’ve turned people in hell into the same, willing to reject their own will in order to get out of punishment.
And God would no longer be a loving Father, but a Being who ‘insists’ that people deny their own desires and ‘do it HIS way’ or else.
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John_Martin
Guest
Saints praying was described in an earlier post - they have no bodies either, but they do have union with God while those in purgatory are suffering the present lack of the communion with God, and those in Hell are suffering the permanent lacking of the communion with God
And, while you are living here your human soul is joined to your human body to equal a human being, but that reality becomes a “dead reality” when your body dies. Your soul can no longer move it to do anything. You are suffering the lack of the physical actuality of you, you are a soul that is supposed to be united to its body to be “whole”, but you are not whole.
That is why the longing for the resurrection exists, why the Saints in Revelation cry out to God, “How long?” and they are told to wait.
John Martin
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marymary1975
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marymary1975
Guest
What you mention is the theory that basically should and body are two different thing contained into one unity. Most theologist and saint disagree with that idea. Body and soul are a whole. One thing not two things that are contained in a reality. Is one until and one whole. When your body dies that whole is not whole anymore. I remember someone explaining it as if your should is an imprint in God’s mind, incomplete but in unitybwith him waiting for the creation of its new body. If you are in purgatory your soul is tormented by the lack of presence for God. This is also the reason why catholicism teaches (which was reiterated in fatima by the virgin) souls in purgatory are powerless, they cannot do anything for themselves. Only the prayer of living humans can help move souls from purgatory to heaven. The soul by itself has no power and souls in purgatory are dependant on prayers of the living.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
Could God relent? I don’t know. With God all things are possible. 
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John_Martin
Guest
By the way, here is a version of the Summa I like very much because it is easily searchable with the way its contents are available on every page and if you sign up you can highlight the text or make notes to yourself when reading:
ccel.org/ccel/aquinas/summa.FS_Q87_A3.html
John Martin
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John_Martin
Guest
Another “by the way”:
I don’t know the extent of your study of the Summa, but I encourage you to continue; be his student so you know everything the way he knew it, know yourself the way he describes you, so when he talks of your soul, you know in yourself what he is meaning, etc.
If you are still discerning about seminary, I encourage you to continue - I see from your posts both the concern for truth and the caring for people and the desire for yourself to fulfill in act the virtues that were granted to you in Baptism.
I just finished the Summa a month ago, 4 years after becoming Catholic, and I find St Thomas’ expression of reality has become my own, to such a degree that even using my own words they still can express Thomas’ meaning. And I have come to know my own soul, my will, my passions, my concupiscence, my faith.
All the best to you.
John Martin
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Richca
Guest
As other posters have mentioned here, according to Holy Scripture, Jesus himself, and the teaching of the Catholic Church, the punishment of hell is eternal.Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.
LOVE!
All creatures are subject to God as their creator. Human beings are especially subject to God as their creator, Father, and their supreme lawgiver. Because human beings have free will, God urges them to obey His law by sanction. God wants His law to be obeyed and so by sanction promises a reward for keeping His law or the threat of punishment for breaking the law. Since human beings are free creatures, sanction or the promise of reward or the threat of punishment is the only means God has for enforcing His law.
God can offer no greater reward for keeping His law than Himself which is what heaven is, the eternal vision and possession of the greatest Good. Nor can God provide a greater threat or punishment for breaking His law than the eternal loss of Himself which is the eternal punishment of hell. If the eternal punishment of Hell does not urge or press one to keep God’s law, than what will? If even this threat does not always prevent sin, and experience shows that it does not, surely nothing less would do so.
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tonyrey
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hansard
Guest
OP: of course it’s possible.
The fire might be eternal; that doesn’t mean the time spent there is.
Every soul in hell would willingly have their position reversed, but for the accidents of fate; their rotten, unfortunate lives that led them to sin; the devil (the forgotten agent in all these discussions) constantly on the march in the world; and possibly just sheer human stupidity and arrogance. Would God, who hears all prayers, even of those in hell, refuse his mercy? I doubt it.
This leads me to think that purgatory is probably the destination of all souls, with some no doubt spending far longer than others. After all, everyone has to pay the temporal penalty for their sins (even sacramentally forgiven sins), so everyone does at least *some *time there.
Otherwise, Satan wins. Possibly billions of immortal souls, created for greatness by an almighty god, spending eternity in hell: this represents a complete and utter victory for Satan. I can’t see God tolerating this. His victory over Satan will be in the forgiveness of sins. That’s the whole point, isn’t it?
The fire might be eternal; that doesn’t mean the time spent there is.
Every soul in hell would willingly have their position reversed, but for the accidents of fate; their rotten, unfortunate lives that led them to sin; the devil (the forgotten agent in all these discussions) constantly on the march in the world; and possibly just sheer human stupidity and arrogance. Would God, who hears all prayers, even of those in hell, refuse his mercy? I doubt it.
This leads me to think that purgatory is probably the destination of all souls, with some no doubt spending far longer than others. After all, everyone has to pay the temporal penalty for their sins (even sacramentally forgiven sins), so everyone does at least *some *time there.
Otherwise, Satan wins. Possibly billions of immortal souls, created for greatness by an almighty god, spending eternity in hell: this represents a complete and utter victory for Satan. I can’t see God tolerating this. His victory over Satan will be in the forgiveness of sins. That’s the whole point, isn’t it?
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hansard
Guest
What I mean is: if a person rejected God all their life, they obviously would not know, or care, about the fate awaiting them. They might even be atheistic in their beliefs.
In Hell, however, they would know very quickly that it’s real. It’s not just some nonsense story they heard and rejected. Their prayers would be the most repentant ever offered. Would Jesus, who has been human and severely tempted himself, refuse to intercede? I doubt it.
In Hell, however, they would know very quickly that it’s real. It’s not just some nonsense story they heard and rejected. Their prayers would be the most repentant ever offered. Would Jesus, who has been human and severely tempted himself, refuse to intercede? I doubt it.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
This is along the lines that I was thinking when I came up with this thread. It seems to me that engaging in immoral behavior is largely due to the environment we grew up in. But then again, these immoral behaviors may not meet the three conditions necessary for a behavior being a mortal sin. I often wonder how often the three conditions for a behavior to be a mortal sin are actually met.
LOVE!
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glendab
Guest
Hello Hansard.
Now, about Jesus being merciful and the ability to pray. Once a person passes from this life they are silent before the Throne and the Judge upon it. All that speaks to Him at that point are their life’s deeds and misdeeds and omissions. The only thing that can alter the course they will be taking for Eternity is the Blood of the Lamb and if as in Egypt, the Angel of Death passing over them, fails to see It, then eternal death occurs for that poor soul. In Egypt only those whose doorposts were marked with the blood of a lamb were passed over, that started the feast of the Passover which the Jews still keep even to this day. It’s an easy lesson to larn regarding the Blood of the Lamb. However then came the Lamb of God, Whose Holy Blood was shed for mankind, but not all of mankind partakes of it. It must mark the doors to the sinners heart so the Angel of Death can Passover them and they will have a different Eternity then those who are found lacking It. Jesus died for us, but not all of us care to have His Holy Blood found on our persons at death. By choice whether for a lifetime or by the stiff necked people who refuse to make regular use of the Confessional where God Himself pours out His Holy Blood once again on each and every sinner who receives Absolution in the Sacrament washing it free of sins committed and confessed to. A stiff necked generation insists God forgive them all the other ways, God bless 'em.
As I said above, once death occurs for the sinner, the sinner is silent. They cannot pray. Those in Hell who never bothered to pray in life won’t suddenly find themselves prayerfully repentant. Their fate for eternity was sealed at their death, then came their particular judgment. They got what they chose in life. Those who chose to reject God’s mercy in this life don’t suddenly get a 2nd chance to choose. Death removes the ability to choose as well as the ability to be heard by God. There is no prayer in Hell.
Purgatory is the same in this regard as in those there cannot act on their own behalf. They need the living and the Church triumphant to act on their behalf for them. They cannot be heard either and it is only by a supernatural manifestation that their actual suffering becomes visible to those in this life as some legends of the Saints attest. * We are their hope as is the intercession of the Saints in Heaven and those who can act on their behalf in this life doing Penance for them or praying Mass for them, or having Mass said for them, etc. They too cannot be heard by God, but His mercy can be had by them. And it is for the end of Purgatory for the sinner who goes there* is Heaven**. Might take a few millennia or longer, but hey, you’ve made it that far you blessed sinner you… sorry about that. Lost my wits.
back to the serious stuff.
Jesus was tempted this is true. We have Biblical accounts of this test. But He was tempted without sin. It would be a sin for Him to accept those who reject Him all their lives. It would be a sin against Justice and His Justice is perfect, so He cannot alter it. Mercy triumphs over Justice, but that is only in the land of the living, not in the land of the lost. Jesus* did *interceded for them when He laid His Body down upon the wood of the Cross and died for them. This only happened once, for all so they say, but not all will receive of that Sacrifice. He cannot undo His Justice. His Mercy is for those who asked for it or die in invincible ignorance, not those n Hell. I think it is the Mormons who take exception to this. Perhaps you can find an answer there, though I wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t want what we have, so they do what they do and believe what they believe. Oh well. I’ve said enough. Have a great Sunday.
Glenda
You almost got it with this post. I heard it once said that Hell isn’t so much a place, but a choice. A person who lived his or her life away from God certainly wouldn’t want to be with Him for all of eternity now would he or she? After all, their lives were spent avoiding Him and living as they wished. So, as in their lives, their eternity is theirs. They made it all possible.
Now, about Jesus being merciful and the ability to pray. Once a person passes from this life they are silent before the Throne and the Judge upon it. All that speaks to Him at that point are their life’s deeds and misdeeds and omissions. The only thing that can alter the course they will be taking for Eternity is the Blood of the Lamb and if as in Egypt, the Angel of Death passing over them, fails to see It, then eternal death occurs for that poor soul. In Egypt only those whose doorposts were marked with the blood of a lamb were passed over, that started the feast of the Passover which the Jews still keep even to this day. It’s an easy lesson to larn regarding the Blood of the Lamb. However then came the Lamb of God, Whose Holy Blood was shed for mankind, but not all of mankind partakes of it. It must mark the doors to the sinners heart so the Angel of Death can Passover them and they will have a different Eternity then those who are found lacking It. Jesus died for us, but not all of us care to have His Holy Blood found on our persons at death. By choice whether for a lifetime or by the stiff necked people who refuse to make regular use of the Confessional where God Himself pours out His Holy Blood once again on each and every sinner who receives Absolution in the Sacrament washing it free of sins committed and confessed to. A stiff necked generation insists God forgive them all the other ways, God bless 'em.
As I said above, once death occurs for the sinner, the sinner is silent. They cannot pray. Those in Hell who never bothered to pray in life won’t suddenly find themselves prayerfully repentant. Their fate for eternity was sealed at their death, then came their particular judgment. They got what they chose in life. Those who chose to reject God’s mercy in this life don’t suddenly get a 2nd chance to choose. Death removes the ability to choose as well as the ability to be heard by God. There is no prayer in Hell.
Purgatory is the same in this regard as in those there cannot act on their own behalf. They need the living and the Church triumphant to act on their behalf for them. They cannot be heard either and it is only by a supernatural manifestation that their actual suffering becomes visible to those in this life as some legends of the Saints attest. * We are their hope as is the intercession of the Saints in Heaven and those who can act on their behalf in this life doing Penance for them or praying Mass for them, or having Mass said for them, etc. They too cannot be heard by God, but His mercy can be had by them. And it is for the end of Purgatory for the sinner who goes there* is Heaven**. Might take a few millennia or longer, but hey, you’ve made it that far you blessed sinner you… sorry about that. Lost my wits.
back to the serious stuff.Jesus was tempted this is true. We have Biblical accounts of this test. But He was tempted without sin. It would be a sin for Him to accept those who reject Him all their lives. It would be a sin against Justice and His Justice is perfect, so He cannot alter it. Mercy triumphs over Justice, but that is only in the land of the living, not in the land of the lost. Jesus* did *interceded for them when He laid His Body down upon the wood of the Cross and died for them. This only happened once, for all so they say, but not all will receive of that Sacrifice. He cannot undo His Justice. His Mercy is for those who asked for it or die in invincible ignorance, not those n Hell. I think it is the Mormons who take exception to this. Perhaps you can find an answer there, though I wouldn’t recommend it. They don’t want what we have, so they do what they do and believe what they believe. Oh well. I’ve said enough. Have a great Sunday.
Glenda
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