Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Michael19682]

Where does the second coming of Christ fit into this debate? and
Does this shed light on the parable of the weeds?
It seems to me that if our deaths mark a final judgment time for our souls,
there would be no need or reason for Christ to come a second time?
The word says that the person who sins against the Holy Spirit
is guilty of “an everlasting sin” Unless there is a Greek language exception to
such English rendering, it doesn’t seem to me like it says is an
“everlasting sinner”. Can it be that sin and sinner separate at the final
coming and all is finally redeemed?

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents:

As we grow in love following the commandments, participating in His holy church and through our acts, with the grace of the Holy Spirit and the forgiveness of our sins, we grow in Christ.

Alternatively, through sin, we become sin itself. If we abandon ourselves to the degree that there is no more pity, if one cannot feel any compassion for those whom one has robbed, raped, murdered, and betrayed, what humanity remains - this is the nature of the unrepentant: demonic. Sin brings us ever closer to death, into the filth and pain. We can run from it in life, but this will end.

A neighbour’s middle-aged niece charged her mother’s ex-boyfriend with sexual abuse and molestation that occurred about four decades ago. Beginning when she had barely started school, it went on for years. She told her mother at various times, and was told not to speak of it to anyone and that it would stop. It did not. Her father had little to do with her, having moved on to start another family. It is not that she ever lacked for anything material, being her “step-dad’s” mistress. As a teen, she increasingly came to the attention of the police. She disclosed what had been happening to a social worker, but before the authorities could proceed, she was convinced by her mother to lie. She has had a number of attempted suicides and hospitalizations over a span of thirty years. The mother moved to another country and refused to acknowledge the charges and the trial. Her father stated in court that it was all news to him. The woman’s word could not be accepted as more credible than the accused. The testimony of those members of the family who supported her was considered tainted by discussions that occurred over the many years. The short of it is that in terms of the criminal-justice system the molester got away with it. This does not matter, as the real tragedy is that here, an opportunity for reconciliation and healing for the entire family was missed in their efforts to avoid their sins. Obviously the pedophile could have owned up, admitted his guilt, faced the transient consequences of what would be a slap on the wrist given his age. This is far less than what he will encounter when his actions will be judged by Love Himself. This would have led to healing both himself and the little girl in this grown woman. The mom hides her guilt among people who respect an illusion she has created, unaware of who she really is, her truth buried deep unacknowledged, unreported. She cares naught for the suffering of her daughter, then nor now. The father oblivious and detached; it has nothing to do with him. The rest of the family is broken, divided, mistrustful, disliking each other and themselves. The judge, another Pontius Pilate, hands tied, unable to execute true justice. What a mess - the chance for growth, for repentance, forgiveness and love missed within the community.

At the end of time, when all creation is before us, when the consequences of our actions have reverberated through time, there will be a final accounting. I personally do not see hell as a punishment, but rather the ultimate reality that is sin. Whereas we now drift in and out of sin and suffering, by clinging on to that which hates love, we become that pain that is sin

Whereas, eternity with God is life, eternity in hell is death: a burning lake of sulfur, static and unchanging.

 

[Michael19682]

:twocents:

At the end of time, when all creation is before us, when the consequences of our actions have reverberated through time, there will be a final accounting. I personally do not see hell as a punishment, but rather the ultimate reality that is sin. Whereas we now drift in and out of sin and suffering, by clinging on to that which hates love, we become that pain that is sin

Whereas, eternity with God is life, eternity in hell is death: a burning lake of sulfur, static and unchanging.

A challenging opinion. I agree that Hell is the reality of sin. But I don’t think the word really means that a person will burn in it forever. The fire is unquenchable, but the person has to be purified eventually. Wouldn’t you say that is the more compassionate, loving interpretation.

Also, very sorry for the situation you narrate. Life can be cruel on many levels. In situations such as that prayer is the only recourse.

 

[bisco]

your compassionate, loving interpretation is a modern, liberal misapplication of theology, and an excuse to continue in sin. i pray that you read the catechism and go to confession. prayers for your understanding of God’s word, and His love, mercy and justice!

 

[rcwitness]

Lets assume that you have to be good with mark 1 to go to heaven. Now assume that a person mark is 0.999999… Does he deserve an eternal life in hell? Isn’t that quite paradoxical? What is the difference between this person and another one with mark 0.8?

Sorry, Bahman, we are discussing the Christian God, - there is nothing but “Pass” or “Fail”, there is no percentage, no grading curve of comparison. Heaven and Purgatory are a Pass grade’s end, Hell is the Fail grade’s end.
I am not sure what teacher taught you about God this way that you know so little and proudly assert it.

John Martin

The only measure we have is Jesus Christ. He is the perfect One who satisfied God the father, even through being human.

We either acknowlege we need God’s grace in all that we do, in order to share the life of Our Lord, or we are deceived in thinking we can by our own strength or goodness be worthy of the resurrection and glory of our Creator.

Hell is for those who have no participation in the life of God, His Son, and Spirit.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . The fire is unquenchable, but the person has to be purified eventually. Wouldn’t you say that is the more compassionate, loving interpretation.

Also, very sorry for the situation you narrate. Life can be cruel on many levels. In situations such as that prayer is the only recourse.

Considering the life situation described above, try to imagine Christmas dinner.
You can’t really; it is never going to happen unless, as you suggest through prayer, that there is a change of heart and a reconciliation among those who were previously unwilling.

We know that:

Matt 22:2 - "The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son.

Isiah 25: 6 - On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine - the best of meats and the finest of wines.

Luke 14 - . . . 15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.” . . .

Matt 26:29 - I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

Unless we settle with those here on earth with whom we are in conflict, we cannot share in God’s bounty, prepared for us in heaven.

Matt 5: 23-30 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Heaven is not described as a place of idyllic pleasure, but a banquet of love.
It is not an illusion like many earthly gatherings where we sheath our knives and try to get along and make the best of it, usually with the help of alcohol. It is real.

If we do not reconcile now, when will we.
There does remain the hope that we can pay and get free.
I don’t have the foggiest notion of how that would work; if we take this at face value, there would not have been a need for Christ to die on the cross as we would have been capable of saving ourselves ultimately.

I believe that in life, we can apologize to those whom we have hurt even when they are no longer with us, but can we say we are sorry when we are dead?

 

[Kithrus]

First off according to actual church doctrine hell isn’t a punishment. It’s a choice. Second the only pain in hell is the pain you create by choosing to go there rather then hang with the cool kids in the heavenly existence next door where the party is at.

Dante’s divine comedy while wholesome sometimes is taken way to literal .

That’s like 1000 years from now we start believing Supernaturals version of hell and heaven

 

[Vico]

Lets assume that you have to be good with mark 1 to go to heaven. Now assume that a person mark is 0.999999… Does he deserve an eternal life in hell? Isn’t that quite paradoxical? What is the difference between this person and another one with mark 0.8?

It is attaining a positive rather than one, so hell damnation would be negative, and increasing bad works bringing more suffering. The zero would be for unbaptized infants that died, and that we hope will be saved. Based upon the good works in ones life, there will be a greater degrees of beatitude in heavenly salvation.

Catholic Encyclopedia: “The pains of hell differ in degree according to demerit.”
and “Hell is a state of the greatest and most complete misfortune, as is evident from all that has been said. The damned have no joy whatever, and it were better for them if they had not been born (Matthew 26:24).”
Also “There are various degrees of beatitude in heaven corresponding to the various degrees of merit. This is a dogma of faith, defined by the Council of Florence (Denz., n. 693 — old, n. 588).”

 

[Michael19682]

your compassionate, loving interpretation is a modern, liberal misapplication of theology, and an excuse to continue in sin. i pray that you read the catechism and go to confession. prayers for your understanding of God’s word, and His love, mercy and justice!

Whose excuse to sin? This debate was about the consequences of a very specific sin, which some are saying equates unforgivable and everlasting with inseparability and permanency.
The only challenge I have to your argument that liberalism is void is in that liberalism sometimes demeans, for some, the value and import ascribed to the sacrifice on the cross. But that is, quite possibly, a conclusion of logic in the driest sense of the word. The reason for this is because liberalism also has an effect on the other side of the spectrum of belief. It reaffirms that God’s sacrifice was not only as some say a mere ending to the saga of Semitic history as written by the prophets, but a real event that really saved all, most especially the sinner. As he said to us, the well do not need a physician, the sick do. Challenges to the doctrine of the permanency of Hell are not challenges to the reality of God’s creation of a place of punishment. It is a challenge to whether or not a person, created by God and redeemed by God in Christ, is no longer able to heal from sin or receive God’s redemption once this earthen vessel is returned to the soil.
Saint Augustine, who wrote with spirited insight about time in his own confessions, said also that evil is like a hole, which though empty may yet cause man to fall in and harm himself. From his work I derive that inasmuch as all have sinned and therefore hell should be a reminder of the danger of sin to one’s self, we need not have to and should not want to see people suffering in its fire to keep away ourselves reminded the dangers of that fire from which God is not incapable of snatching them (Jude 1:23).
Thus the argument that you say serves as an excuse to continue in sin can equally be seen as a call to right action.

 

[Michael19682]

Considering the life situation described above, try to imagine Christmas dinner.
You can’t really; it is never going to happen unless, as you suggest through prayer, that there is a change of heart and a reconciliation among those who were previously unwilling.

We know that:

Unless we settle with those here on earth with whom we are in conflict, we cannot share in God’s bounty, prepared for us in heaven.

Heaven is not described as a place of idyllic pleasure, but a banquet of love.
It is not an illusion like many earthly gatherings where we sheath our knives and try to get along and make the best of it, usually with the help of alcohol. It is real.

If we do not reconcile now, when will we.
There does remain the hope that we can pay and get free.
I don’t have the foggiest notion of how that would work; if we take this at face value, there would not have been a need for Christ to die on the cross as we would have been capable of saving ourselves ultimately.

I believe that in life, we can apologize to those whom we have hurt even when they are no longer with us, but can we say we are sorry when we are dead?

It sounds like a terrible thing to die without having sought reconciliation. To some it sounds like injustice that God should open his kingdom to those who have not sought reconciliation. Maybe both of these are true by human standards. God is mysterious in his ways (Mt 20:12-16)
also,

He tells us to not dwell on the splinter in our brother’s eye when we have a wooded beam in our own. First remove the beam from our own, then we can see clearly to remove the splinter from our brother’s eye. I understand this to mean that we should not attempt to see our brothers sin at all? It also seems to imply that the mindset of those who go about looking for the splinter in their brothers eye is such that they have by comparison a heavier weight of sin of their own.
Furthermore, if the wooden beam signifies death then by accepting the flaws of the other, the insults, the accusations, the splinters we are too weak not to see, etc, all who die in such acceptance make our deaths more meaningful to our brothers because death hopefully will remove the beam from our eye (Rm 6:7; Rm 7:5-6).

 

[Seraphim73]

A number of saints believed in universal salvation and a number of them would reject the idea that hell is punishment. A bit polemical but worth a read nonetheless I think.

River of Fire

 

[tonyrey]

Many thanks to the forum members who have replied to my post that Hell does not exist. I will try my best to answer all replies together in as short a paragraph as possible. I have spoken to my Priest about my disbelief in Hell. He lent me a book titled “Good Goats – Healing our image of God” by Catholic authors Dennis Linn, Sheila Fabricant Linn and Matthew Linn. This book clearly states that there is no-one in Hell and that Hell does not exist. Therefore, I was left with no illusions as to where my Priest’s belief in Hell lay. “Healing our image of God” is a very important part of the book. We have all been brought up on an image of God that is vengeful, wrathful, suffering from megalomania and downright bloodthirsty. And, I am not being blasphemous when I say the above. It is the truth. You only have to read the Old Testament to see this image of God played out very clearly. This is not the correct image of God. I recommend the above book to you all, any Christian, and anyone who does not believe in God. Life is not a “good ship lollipop”. Instead, life is full of suffering but I do understand what is meant by this statement from one of the replies. At the end of the day, we do have to front up to God for our sins. Thinking as a human, we usually think of punishment and reward. Purgatory is punishment for our sins but Purgatory has a finite time period. As for not being a practising Catholic because I do not believe in hell, I have met many Catholics who do not believe in Hell including a Catholic nun. My priest’s views are obvious from the book choice above. They are all still practising Catholics. As for being a Protestant for not believing in Hell, does that mean that Protestants do not believe in Hell? Also, Protestants are Christians so I am perplexed by 2 of the replies which intimated that Protestants were somehow inferior to us Catholics and that I should be a Protestant. May I quote from one reply: “We, as faithful Catholics, proclaiming what was delivered to us only, will be found on the last day to have spoken the truth to the world”. What was delivered to us only? Surely, all Christians proclaim the Good News of Jesus and what ever was delivered to us was delivered to them also. We often have joint Christian sermons with our neighbouring Anglican church. On Palm Sunday, we meet together in the village square carrying palm fronds. Our Priest does a reading and the Anglican Vicar (a woman) does a reading. This all happens beside a large coffee shop where we surround people having a latte outside. What a wonderful way of advertising our faith as Christians. I still firmly believe that our Catholic faith is the best branch of Christianity being able to trace our roots back to the very first Christians. Unfortunately, the Bible (all versions) is errant and also contradicts itself in several areas. I am not saying that it is riddled with errors. It is and always will be our main source of reference for our religion and Christianity as a whole. I completely agree that the reader can be errant as well. One can see this by the many one man band ridiculous off shoot churches. “Yes, they fall under the Protestant umbrella somehow” but the larger Protestant denominations denounce them. One or possibly 2 replies mentioned Jesus’ teachings on Hell. I do find Jesus’ teachings concerning the afterlife very unsettling and I constantly pray for guidance on this issue. Like all Christians, Jesus is my moral compass and I am having difficulty aligning my firm belief in no Hell with Jesus’ teachings on the subject. We have to think through the matter of Hell very carefully. What kind of God would create several billion human beings knowing full well that He is going to put the vast majority of them in a lake of fire for ETERNITY? I will never accept that people put themselves into this horrendous position. God created Hell and it is God that puts people in Hell. I am sure any person actually standing on the abyss of Hell (if it exists) would not choose to be there. If you believe in Hell, you also have to accept that children are there as well - maybe your own! What about the millions of Hindus (and billions of people from other religions) who are brought up in their culture to follow their particular religion. They believe that their religion is the true religion – just as we believe that our religion is the true religion. Obviously, they go to Hell as well!

Nothing can separate us from Our Lord’s **love **except ourselves.

 

[tonyrey]

… Catholic Encyclopedia:“Hell is a state of the greatest and most complete misfortune, as is evident from all that has been said. The damned have no joy whatever, and it were better for them if they had not been born (Matthew 26:24).” "

No one would choose hell if it had no compensations. Only the insane would opt for sheer misery - and they wouldn’t be responsible! There is no joy but there is great pleasure and satisfaction in being independent, owing allegiance to no one, having one’s own kingdom and living entirely for oneself. The lust for power is at the root of evil but it leads to isolation because it alienates everyone else. Egolatry is doomed to produce frustration and misery because only God can fulfil our need for perfect love:

Great are you, O Lord, and exceedingly worthy of praise; your power is immense, and your wisdom beyond reckoning. And so we men, who are a due part of your creation, long to praise you – we also carry our mortality about with us, carry the evidence of our sin and with it the proof that you thwart the proud. You arouse us so that** praising you may bring us joy**, because you have made us and drawn us to yourself, and **our heart is restless until it rests in you.
**
How shall I call upon my God, my God and my Lord, when by the very act of calling upon him I would be calling him into myself? Is there any place within me into which my God might come? How should the God who made heaven and earth come into me? Is there any room in me for you, Lord, my God? Even heaven and earth, which you have made and in which you have made me – can even they contain you? Since nothing that exists would exist without you, does it follow that whatever exists does in some way contain you?

But if this is so, how can I, who am one of these existing things, ask you to come into me, when I would not exist at all unless you were already in me? Not yet am I in hell, after all but even if I were, you would be there too; for if I descend into the underworld, you are there. No, my God, I would not exist, I would not be at all, if you were not in me. Or should I say, rather, that I should not exist if I were not in you, from whom are all things, through whom are all things, in whom are all things? Yes, Lord, that is the truth, that is indeed the truth. To what place can I invite you, then, since I am in you? Or where could you come from, in order to come into me? To what place outside heaven and earth could I travel, so that my God could come to me there, the God who said, I fill heaven and earth?

Who will grant it to me to find peace in you? Who will grant me this grace, that you should come into my heart and inebriate it, enabling me to forget the evils that beset me and embrace you, my only good? What are you to me? Have mercy on me, so that I may tell. What indeed am I to you, that you should command me to love you, and grow angry with me if I do not, and threaten me with enormous woes? Is not the failure to love you woe enough in itself?

Alas for me! Through your own merciful dealings with me, O Lord my God, tell me what you are to me. Say to my soul, I am your salvation. Say it so that I can hear it. My heart is listening, Lord; open the ears of my heart and say to my soul, I am your salvation. Let me run towards this voice and seize hold of you. Do not hide your face from me: let me die so that I may see it, for not to see it would be death to me indeed.

*Confessions
*
Magnificent words!

 

[glendab]

Look, Hell is very basic to Christianity. God sent His Son to save us, but from what? Hell. he died to make Heaven possible. If you stop believing in Hell, pretty soon you won’t need God anymore either. I guarantee it. If you have no fear of God, fear of Hell is work and God can work with that to raise the sinner up.

Glenda

 

[Robert_Sock]

Will those in hell be doing some type of work, in accordance with God’s will, throughout eternity; such as ruling over another physical world such as ours?

LOVE!

 

[meltzerboy]

Will those in hell be doing some type of work, in accordance with God’s will, throughout eternity; such as ruling over another physical world such as ours?

LOVE!

I wonder how anyone would know the answer to this question, Robert! I doubt they would rule over another world, though.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I wonder how anyone would know the answer to this question, Robert! I doubt they would rule over another world, though.

So sorry if my question perturbed you.

I was not really expecting a definitive answer. I meant it more as a question for thought. The question came to me today at Mass, and I had it on my mind ever since. The thought led me to wonder if other physical world were possible, whether in the past, present or the future.

Not today, but I have also wondered why God’s creation of hell is not mentioned in the story of creation, as told in the Book of Genesis. In so many ways, this life on earth reminds me of hell.

My apologies in advance for forcing you to read my mental wanderings.

LOVE!

 

[glendab]

Ya know what Robert,

Will those in hell be doing some type of work, in accordance with God’s will, throughout eternity; such as ruling over another physical world such as ours?

LOVE!

Do you reeeeeeeallly think persons in Hell rule anything? If so, I’d seriously consider re-evaluating all of my beliefs. You cannot be serious in suggesting that those in Hell, Satan and his minions could rule the world now do you?

Curious what you mean by that.

Glenda

 

[Robert_Sock]

Ya know what Robert,

Do you reeeeeeeallly think persons in Hell rule anything? If so, I’d seriously consider re-evaluating all of my beliefs. You cannot be serious in suggesting that those in Hell, Satan and his minions could rule the world now do you?

Curious what you mean by that.

Glenda

1 John 5:19 RSV
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.

Maybe my interpretation of the above quote was an error in my part, and I do believe God is ultimately in control, but the above passage seems to imply that Satan does rule us to some degree?. If not, please explain to me why an entity having power over us does not imply having some degree of rule over us?

LOVE!

 

[glendab]

Hello Robert.

1 John 5:19 RSV
We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.

Maybe my interpretation of the above quote was an error in my part, and I do believe God is ultimately in control, but the above passage seems to imply that Satan does rule us to some degree?. If not, please explain to me why an entity having power over us does not imply having some degree of rule over us?

LOVE!

Passage cited is about the time just before the Passion when God defeated Satan on the Cross. It’s time passed. Jesus brought us into the Kingdom and He’s been reigning ever since. Context man, context. Read the whole thing. Nice try though.

Glenda