Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Amandil]

"Tom Baum:

You wrote, “So, as we have repeatedly stated, when Paul expresses God’s will in 1 Timothy that “all men be saved”, this is necessarily a statement before any actual judgment by God and not a necessary or consequential statement affirming universal salvation, as Tom has been presupposing.”

If God is Omniscient, wouldn’t God have “known” before creation everything about creation?

Yes, this includes the existence of hell, which is a part of the existence He caused to be.
Tom Baum:

Unless Paul did not know what he was talking about in 1 Tim, don’t you think that God knew what God’s Will was/is?

It seems to be a thing with you to ask redundant and pointless questions.

The real question is whether or not you understand what Paul meant by God’s will when he wrote 1 Timothy? Clearly you do not.
Tom Baum:

Do you think that God came up with a PLAN that includes God’s Will being thwarted?

In a way, yes. But then you need to understand the difference between what Thomas calls God’s necessary will-which can never be thwarted)-and God’s antecedent will-which may be “thwarted” because He allows it as part of His necessary Will and Providence.

Clearly you don’t understand the difference.
Tom Baum:

God-Incarnate did NOT teach us to pray for God’s Will to be thwarted.

No He didn’t. But that’s obviously not the issue, either. The issue is whether or not you understand what that means. Clearly you don’t.
Tom Baum:

I, personally, believe that it is satan who will be thwarted, TOTALLY THWARTED.

Satan will be thwarted, along with his sons and daughters, when they will be judged on the Last Day.

Now I’ll address your beginning comments:

One thing that he does seem to do is to take a simple, straightforward statement, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” and make it rather complicated.

One of the things about Thomas Aquinas’s written words, at least what is so simply written in 1 Tim, is that he seems to come up with ways of saying that something does not say what it so simply says that it says or at least that is what it seems that you are saying.

One does not have to believe that “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.” but to say that it does not say what it says is, well what would you say that is?

Didn’t Jesus say something about revealing to the simple what is hidden from the learned?

This I anticipated and you certainly did not disappoint.

Basically that when you are set against a bonafide Saint and a Doctor of the Church, your views are superior and are necessarily true where Thomas’ words are false.

Not only that, you continued to belittle Thomas’ scholarship, his credentials(he was a Dominican priest), etc by claiming that your supposed “revelations” are superior to his works, which I repeat are fundamental in regards to Catholic Christianity. Thomas is cited multiple times in just about every major catechetical work(he’s cited 61 times in the Catechism itself, more than any other Saint).

Now, you have had Apostles, Saints, the Church’s Magisterium(the Catechism) and even Jesus’ own words set up against your supposed “revelation” and in every instance you have set yourself and your opinions over and above all of them.

Your false humility, your constant professions of not “knowing” things ,gives away your whole position. Clearly, according to you, you know that no matter what, your right and that anyone who contradicts your views is wrong.

Basically, since you apparently had this supposed “dream” where you believe that God spoke to you, you now think that you have some supposed direct pipeline to God and which you believe makes every thought you have pertaining to faith and morals an absolute truth.

I know it’s flattering to think that you may be someone special, it helps inflate the ego. Paul writes, “…even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.”(2 Cor 11:14), which is why he insists that we “test the spirits” to see if they are truly from God.

The Holy Spirit, the only true Spirit of God, would not contradict His Church.

Now, Jesus had miracles to back up His testimony that He spoke the truth from God.

The Apostles also performed miracles in Christ’s name to testify to their authority.

Thomas Aquinas has miracles attributed to him,(obviously, or he would not be a Saint). People witnessed him levitate while praying.

You claim that it is your “job” to speak for God, yet where are your miracles which testify to your authority to speak for God?

When I see something, some miracle, which testifies to your supposed “job”, then you really have no “job”, you’re simply deceiving yourself and others… You’re simply a professed Catholic spouting heretical opinions against the Church.

 

[Amandil]

I did mention children going to hell but that was with reference to an earlier reply from Amandil regarding hell, the age of reason and confirmation. Could you please research the age of reason, capability of making a free choice, confirmation and hell as it will help you understand where I’m coming from in my post.

Appealing to some argument based upon “age of reason” is at best circular, you’re assuming your conclusion(universal salvation) and then picking out premises to justify your conclusion.

arte:

From your post: “Anyone who is in Hell is an immortal soul, not a mortal child”. I will reply to this in more detail later under Amandil’s reply but I do have a few questions for now. Aren’t all souls in hell immortal souls and not bodies? Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that only souls go to hell and not bodies.

That is Platonism, not Christianity. In this until the Last Day, souls are either saved or lost. On the Last Day our souls will be returned to our bodies in the Resurrection and receive either the reward of heaven or the punishment of hell.

The bottom line is that a human soul which has gone into eternity is no longer subject to the limitations of the body. And when it is rejoined with the body on the last day it’s particular will is set.

arte:

Therefore, isn’t it a child’s soul that is in hell and not their body?

Again, you miss the point. The state of a human soul in eternity is not subject to what you know as a “natural development” of a human in time. Souls, as a matter of their nature, do not “grow up”, they simply are. Their knowledge is complete according to their nature:

“Now I know in part; then I shall understand fully, even as I have been fully understood.”(1 Cor 13:13)

arte:

There is a separate thread on this forum titled: “Do children go to Hell” so there is genuine concern amongst our fellow Catholics about the possibility of children going to hell.

As children? No.

In any case, Aquinas affirms the possibility that the faith of the parents could be sufficient to cleanse the soul of their child/children of original sin(ST.TP.Q.52 A.7C).

arte:

The part of my post that you replied to concerned the lack of empathy shown by Amandil for the parents of unbaptised babies who have died and are deeply worried about the whereabouts of their babies in the afterlife.

Which is absurd.

arte:

Now, I’m not being facetious or personally attacking you Amandil. I know you have a good knowledge of our Church’s doctrine and teachings. All, I’m trying to do here is tap into that knowledge. I’m asking you for help. I have never heard anything remotely like what you have posted above. Are you saying that the souls of babies, who have died, are not baby souls but adult souls who have made a conscious decision to accept God or not before they died?

I’m saying that they are rational human souls without any lack of knowledge due to temporal development.

What the state of their will is only God knows, but they certainly have made a choice based upon God’s grace.

Let me ask you, are we saved by God through grace alone, or are we saved because we’re basically good people and should go to heaven?

arte:

Also, when they are resurrected on the Last Day, they are resurrected in an adult body and not in a baby body?

1 Cor 15:
[35] But some one will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” [36] You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. [37] And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. [38] But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. [39] For not all flesh is alike, but there is one kind for men, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. [40] There are celestial bodies and there are terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. [41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. [42] So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
[43] It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
[44] It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.

arte:

Furthermore, God knows what their decision was and will judge them accordingly, which means they will either go to Heaven or Hell? Lastly, we are required to accept God’s judgement whatever it is? Can you please enlighten me and I suspect other members of this forum, where you got this information from.

The Church, which is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

The Church you profess to believe in, correct?

 

[simpleas]

Hello Simpleas.

Please read it again s-l-o-w-l-y. The quote from Trent does not say “only practicing Catholic’s are worthy.” Those are your words, not the Counsel Father’s. As fro your concern for the Saints of the Old Testament, that isn’t the topic we are currently discussing in this thread. Perhaps you could start one about that and see what develops.

Glenda

I asked you the question because you bolded the words and made a point about only the people God communicates his passion too and not all.
As for the saints, I was referring to Jews today, who believe the word from the beginning, but are not born again, and would be set for eternal punishment in hell because they refuse Christ, and remain with O.S.

I find that pretty uncomfortable to believe, even our church recognises other faiths as true and pleasing to God. I’m not saying you don’t, but the words of the council seem to say only a certain type of people can be saved for eternity.

Thanks anyway

 

[Amandil]

I asked you the question because you bolded the words and made a point about only the people God communicates his passion too and not all.
As for the saints, I was referring to Jews today, who believe the word from the beginning, but are not born again, and would be set for eternal punishment in hell because they refuse Christ, and remain with O.S.

If they are Jews then necessarily they are circumcised. And if they live according to the faith of Abraham then they may be saved according to that covenant.
simple as:

I find that pretty uncomfortable to believe, even our church recognises other faiths as true and pleasing to God. I’m not saying you don’t, but the words of the council seem to say only a certain type of people can be saved for eternity.

Thanks anyway

That’s simply false. Our Church does not “recognize other faiths as true and pleasing to God.” This is in fact an error known as Indifferentism.

The Church recognizes those particular truths that they may contain in regards to first the natural/moral law(as in non-christian sects) and then further those truths of those Protestant “churches” which they have taken from the Church’s teaching.

The only faith which is truly pleasing to God is the Catholic Faith, it is the only Faith which worships God in Spirit and in Truth.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus; (de fide)…

 

[glendab]

Hello Simpleas.

I asked you the question because you bolded the words and made a point about only the people God communicates his passion too and not all.
As for the saints, I was referring to Jews today, who believe the word from the beginning, but are not born again, and would be set for eternal punishment in hell because they refuse Christ, and remain with O.S.

I find that pretty uncomfortable to believe, even our church recognises other faiths as true and pleasing to God. I’m not saying you don’t, but the words of the council seem to say only a certain type of people can be saved for eternity.

Thanks anyway

The choice of those words is not mine, but the Council Fathers and they were speaking on behalf of the entire Church and her deposit of faith that at that point in time extended well beyond the 1500 years since Jesus revealed Himself to us and gave us the Church and the Sacraments. You are correct to repeat that only those to whom God communicates His passion will be saved from Hell and if that includes a Jew from today, then it will include a Jew from today. It is sad that you don’t agree with this though because you are disagreeing with the Church on a fundamental principle - justification.

People go to Hell. That is a fact. You can avoid the same fate. I suggest you take it on faith that Hell is an eternity long and there is no 2nd chance given to repent once a soul is lost to its fires. Repent while there is still time. The Church is correct. Some on this thread are unhappy about that. But there are things that cannot change no matter what one thinks about them. A doubt can be healed, but an error must be corrected and key to that is admitting one may not be correct. The Council of Trent was a great gift from God to His Church and it keeps right on giving. It shows very clearly how some errors can be overcome and it defines quite a few of them. You would be much better off if you simply gave the assent of your will to them. Your heart may catch up to your mind later on if you simply submit in good faith. Or you can try to prove the Church wrong. Not a smart move though.

Glenda

 

[simpleas]

If they are Jews then necessarily they are circumcised. And if they live according to the faith of Abraham then they may be saved according to that covenant.

That’s simply false. Our Church does not “recognize other faiths as true and pleasing to God.” This is in fact an error known as Indifferentism.

The Church recognizes those particular truths that they may contain in regards to first the natural/moral law(as in non-christian sects) and then further those truths of those Protestant “churches” which they have taken from the Church’s teaching.

The only faith which is truly pleasing to God is the Catholic Faith, it is the only Faith which worships God in Spirit and in Truth.

Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus; (de fide)…

Ok, so there are two covenants, the old and the new and both are sufficent to help a person enter heaven and avoid hell.
I thought Christ was the first and the last covenant, the new covenant in Christ was to be accepted by all men for their salvation.

 

[simpleas]

Hello Simpleas.

The choice of those words is not mine, but the Council Fathers and they were speaking on behalf of the entire Church and her deposit of faith that at that point in time extended well beyond the 1500 years since Jesus revealed Himself to us and gave us the Church and the Sacraments. You are correct to repeat that only those to whom God communicates His passion will be saved from Hell and if that includes a Jew from today, then it will include a Jew from today. It is sad that you don’t agree with this though because you are disagreeing with the Church on a fundamental principle - justification.

People go to Hell. That is a fact. You can avoid the same fate. I suggest you take it on faith that Hell is an eternity long and there is no 2nd chance given to repent once a soul is lost to its fires. Repent while there is still time. The Church is correct. Some on this thread are unhappy about that. But there are things that cannot change no matter what one thinks about them. A doubt can be healed, but an error must be corrected and key to that is admitting one may not be correct. The Council of Trent was a great gift from God to His Church and it keeps right on giving. It shows very clearly how some errors can be overcome and it defines quite a few of them. You would be much better off if you simply gave the assent of your will to them. Your heart may catch up to your mind later on if you simply submit in good faith. Or you can try to prove the Church wrong. Not a smart move though.

Glenda

No, if God doesn’t communicate his passion to certain people of other faiths then they will not inherit the kingdom, it’s like saying our faith is the only way some, not all people with be able to connect with Christ/God. If people refuse to acknowledge Christ, that is up to them, but they may find God in other ways, and still be saved.

I’m sorry, but were I come from, apart from ash wednesday the word repent isn’t often heard. I see it written on placards with people in the towns shouting “repent the end is near” etc, and the odd scripture reading, but not in any homilies.
And I’m not trying to prove the church wrong, but I am beginning to realise I have my own ways of thinking about things too.

Thanks.

 

[rinnie]

My point is that if God is Omniscient than God “knew” everything that everyone would do that God was going to create even before God created any one of them so with that in mind, GOD’S MIND so to speak, God came up with a PLAN even before creation and that God’s Plan is catholic.

Jesus took ALL OF EVERYONE’S SINS UPON HIMSELF on the cross, isn’t that a teaching of what the meaning of the cross is?

I am NOT saying that people will not be judged.

I am NOT saying that people will not be punished.

I AM SAYING that even though we may or may not have a thought of just how God can have a Plan that somehow or another is catholic in relationship to the SALVATION OF MAN, humanity, doesn’t mean that God doesn’t and that God’s Plan for God’s Will to come to Fruition will, indeed, come to Fruition.

I do not know if this is a teaching of the Church or not but I believe that the Church has said that we are ALL sinners, doesn’t it?

Matter of fact, doesn’t someone in the bible say that if someone says that they are not a sinner than they are a liar?

Of course, I, personally, take this to mean one who is above the “age of reason” and that also has the ability to reason.

I don’t know about anyone else but I, most definitely, need to rely on God’s Mercy and I think/believe that everyone else needs to rely on God’s Mercy.

As I have stated elsewhere, I think/believe that God’s Justice and God’s Mercy are so intertwined as to be ONE.

Are you relying on yourself to get to the “good place”?

Whether we sin or not, we ALL “do our own free will”, do you consider “free will” a sin?

God paid the ransom for ALL on the cross, just as it says, is this clearer?

Do you consider Catholicism/Christianity to be about the Salvation of One or the SALVATION OF ALL BY ONE?

I guess where we are in disagreement is this, God indeed died and because of his death made it POSSIBLE for Salvation for All Men. Although by his death it he paid for every sin possible, with the Exception of the Holy Spirit.

But just because he paid the price, and by paying the price made it possible for all Men to be forgiven, does not mean all men will be forgiven just like that.

We have our part to pay in this Salvation, and that is to obey his commands and confess the sin we commit, Quit the sin, and do OUR part.

What I am saying is he did not die for all sin, and that’s that. We do not just have to believe in him, and think we can sin and not do his commands to be free from that sin.

He died for all sin, without his death it would not even be POSSIBLE for us to be forgiven, But we have our part to do. Although he did indeed die for all MEN, it is not ALL MEN who will grab on and accept his free gift, and who will reject his free gift and will not be forgiven because of it. That’s as clear as I can make it, hope you can see what I am saying.

 

[rinnie]

No, if God doesn’t communicate his passion to certain people of other faiths then they will not inherit the kingdom, it’s like saying our faith is the only way some, not all people with be able to connect with Christ/God. If people refuse to acknowledge Christ, that is up to them, but they may find God in other ways, and still be saved.

I’m sorry, but were I come from, apart from ash wednesday the word repent isn’t often heard. I see it written on placards with people in the towns shouting “repent the end is near” etc, and the odd scripture reading, but not in any homilies.
And I’m not trying to prove the church wrong, but I am beginning to realise I have my own ways of thinking about things too.

Thanks.

But why not? Is your Church not Catholic? Is not the word alone full of need for repentence. If not what scripture is your Church teaching and preaching?

 

[Kurisu35712]

No, if God doesn’t communicate his passion to certain people of other faiths then they will not inherit the kingdom, it’s like saying our faith is the only way some, not all people with be able to connect with Christ/God. If people refuse to acknowledge Christ, that is up to them, but they may find God in other ways, and still be saved.

I’m sorry, but were I come from, apart from ash wednesday the word repent isn’t often heard. I see it written on placards with people in the towns shouting “repent the end is near” etc, and the odd scripture reading, but not in any homilies.
And I’m not trying to prove the church wrong, but I am beginning to realise I have my own ways of thinking about things too.

Thanks.

Regarding this, I’m taking from this that your view is that some people can be saved even outside the Church, assuming they “find God.” Which, in a roundabout way, the Church teaches is possible. Somewhere in the Catechism (not familiar enough to know off the top of my head, and I’m in class so I can’t look it up right now), the point that people of other faiths can be saved and enter Heaven is discussed. However that is with the caveat that they still enter through Jesus. One cannot enter Heaven through any way but Jesus. Now, whether that means they accepted Him in this life or if He somehow reveals Himself to them before their judgement after they die is up to interpretation. I look at it as, they may not have proclaimed following Jesus, but through their actions in this life, DID follow His commandments. As a result, they would be in a sufficient state of grace, given to them by God to enter Purgatory and eventually Heaven. Perhaps in their case Purgatory would involve coming to an understanding that, though not “Christian” in name, they were Christian in deed and spirit. If nothing else, that makes sense to me, as far as how someone non-Christian could still enter Heaven, and do so through Christ.

Of course, that isn’t the ordinary way to enter Heaven, from a Catholic perspective. I would liken it to a person learning how to play the violin by teaching themselves rather than by learning the proper technique. Certainly, one can learn the instrument, but it would be more difficult, somewhat more haphazard, and playing classical music would be more difficult. Whereas someone classically trained would be able to play both classical and fiddle music, as they learned the “proper” way to play the violin. A Catholic receives all the training necessary to be a true follower of Christ. They have the rule book and all of the resources needed to fix things if they happen to mess up. Someone who is not Catholic, or moreso not Christian, has a more difficult time knowing what is necessary, though it certainly isn’t impossible for them to follow Christ, even if that isn’t what their explicit intent is. Harder, but not impossible.

 

[Kurisu35712]

He died for all sin, without his death it would not even be POSSIBLE for us to be forgiven, But we have our part to do. Although he did indeed die for all MEN, it is not ALL MEN who will grab on and accept his free gift, and who will reject his free gift and will not be forgiven because of it. That’s as clear as I can make it, hope you can see what I am saying.

This. The reason not everyone will enter Heaven is because doing so requires action from both parties. God has already offered us salvation. Christ has already paid the price for our sins that kept us from entering Heaven. The door is open, and Reconciliation is offered to those who fall. God has literally done everything He needs to for us to be able to be reunited with Him. The onus then, is on US to accept that gift. It is our responsibility now to accept His offer. We can’t enter Heaven with sin on our souls, because sin is defiance of God, and God cannot be defied in Heaven. Thus Purgatory. But someone who has dedicated their soul to opposing God, which is what mortal sin entails and requires, cannot change this state at death.

The reason God will not convince them, even without taking their free will, is because they have already consciously decided not to listen to Him, and He will not violate that choice. They have set themselves in opposition. It’s not that God can’t potentially convince them, the problem is that they will not even give Him the chance to. And He will not violate our free will to convince us we’re wrong. The kinds of sins that are “mortal sins” are mortal sins because one knows it’s wrong and grave and chooses to do so anyway, freely. Mortal sin is a conscious rejection of God, and if a soul dies in that state, that soul has condemned itself. They had to know condemnation was the result of their choice and done it anyway. They will not be forgiven because they will not ask for it. Forgiveness is offered as freely to them as anyone else. It is they who will not accept it. God can forgive someone even if they aren’t sorry, but if they aren’t sorry for their sins, they aren’t going to choose mercy and Heaven.

 

[arte]

The first section is what I’ve come to think of O.S. I can believe we are in a “state” of being and that through being baptised into Christ, is what gives us extra spiritual power to be able to try to over come alot of lifes issues.
Funny enough I was visiting a village this weekend and the local church there has a grave yard, most all grave stones are 17th century, I came across one, which had many family members in graved and one which stood out was of a child who had died, and they had felt they needed to inform a passer by that the child had died unbaptised. How sad I feel for the people who believed that the child could be lost in spirit. Hope they are reunited now.

But yes, the baptism prayer still holds exorism in any case :

Prayer of Exorcism and Annointing Before Baptism.

After the invocation, the celebrant says:

Almighty and ever-living God, you sent your only Son into the world to cast out the power of Satan, spirit of evil, to rescue man from the kingdom of darkness, and bring him into the splendor of your kingdom of light. We pray for this child: set him (her) free from original sin, make him (her) a temple of your glory, and send your Holy Spirit to dwell with him (her). We ask this through Christ our Lord.

But because Christ was victorious over satan, then the power that he once held over man has been erased.

Many thanks Simpleas for your reply. I’ve often visited old graveyards and sometimes with my wife when we were on holiday. I know it sounds macabre but it’s amazing the history you can see from reading the engraving on the tomb stones. It somehow connects you with that time period.

The story about the child being buried on its own and not with the rest of the family is heart wrenching. You saw there a typical example of where religion with its all its scripture, dogma and teachings cannot make a common sense decision about the fate of an innocent child. I am 100% certain that that child is in Heaven with its family. God would have it no other way. Do you live in the UK because the description you give of the 17 Century village graveyard sounds typical of a graveyard in the UK (possibly England)?

I had forgotten about the Prayer of Exorcism and Anointing before Baptism so many thanks for including that as well. It’s been many years since I’ve been to a Baptism (Christening).

 

[glendab]

Hello Kurisu.

This. The reason not everyone will enter Heaven is because doing so requires action from both parties. God has already offered us salvation. Christ has already paid the price for our sins that kept us from entering Heaven. The door is open, and Reconciliation is offered to those who fall. God has literally done everything He needs to for us to be able to be reunited with Him. The onus then, is on US to accept that gift. It is our responsibility now to accept His offer. We can’t enter Heaven with sin on our souls, because sin is defiance of God, and God cannot be defied in Heaven. Thus Purgatory. But someone who has dedicated their soul to opposing God, which is what mortal sin entails and requires, cannot change this state at death.

The reason God will not convince them, even without taking their free will, is because they have already consciously decided not to listen to Him, and He will not violate that choice. They have set themselves in opposition. It’s not that God can’t potentially convince them, the problem is that they will not even give Him the chance to. And He will not violate our free will to convince us we’re wrong. The kinds of sins that are “mortal sins” are mortal sins because one knows it’s wrong and grave and chooses to do so anyway, freely. Mortal sin is a conscious rejection of God, and if a soul dies in that state, that soul has condemned itself. They had to know condemnation was the result of their choice and done it anyway. They will not be forgiven because they will not ask for it. Forgiveness is offered as freely to them as anyone else. It is they who will not accept it. God can forgive someone even if they aren’t sorry, but if they aren’t sorry for their sins, they aren’t going to choose mercy and Heaven.

You are 100% correct and the arguments of some here in this thread demonstrate your point pretty well. They won’t go to Hell for their defiance of Church teaching because God supposedly has “a plan” that covers that as well, so there ya go - the bush we’ve been beating around for quite a few days now. I think the bush looks kinda ratty from all of our beatings though. It might not make it through the winter.

Yes, the only sin God cannot forgive is the one that never gets acknowledged by the sinner. The sad fact of life “outside” the Church no matter how many Sundays they show up in the Communion line. They will never confess to something they don’t believe is a sin or confess the things they have a problem believing in, the sins against faith. That is pure pride, though. And it has a very high price.

Glenda

 

[rinnie]

Hello Kurisu.

You are 100% correct and the arguments of some here in this thread demonstrate your point pretty well. They won’t go to Hell for their defiance of Church teaching because God supposedly has “a plan” that covers that as well, so there ya go - the bush we’ve been beating around for quite a few days now. I think the bush looks kinda ratty from all of our beatings though. It might not make it through the winter.

Yes, the only sin God cannot forgive is the one that never gets acknowledged by the sinner. The sad fact of life “outside” the Church no matter how many Sundays they show up in the Communion line. They will never confess to something they don’t believe is a sin or confess the things they have a problem believing in, the sins against faith. That is pure pride, though. And it has a very high price.

Glenda

Just curious how do you get to heaven if you have defiance of Church teaching? Is it not the Church that is the pilar of all truth? How do you get into heaven without accepting truth that is given to you through the Church that was started by Christ?

What was his purpose of the Church, what was Gods plan that you believe outside of the Church? I was taught that all Salvation comes from Christ and he and his Church are one.

So is not defiance of the Church teaching defiance of Christ’s teaching? If not how do you separate Christ from his Church if they are one. Or do you reject that teaching?

 

[bisco]

sadly, yes. heartbreaking stubbornness. c.s. lewis details this all too well.

 

[rinnie]

This. The reason not everyone will enter Heaven is because doing so requires action from both parties. God has already offered us salvation. Christ has already paid the price for our sins that kept us from entering Heaven. The door is open, and Reconciliation is offered to those who fall. God has literally done everything He needs to for us to be able to be reunited with Him. The onus then, is on US to accept that gift. It is our responsibility now to accept His offer. We can’t enter Heaven with sin on our souls, because sin is defiance of God, and God cannot be defied in Heaven. Thus Purgatory. But someone who has dedicated their soul to opposing God, which is what mortal sin entails and requires, cannot change this state at death.

The reason God will not convince them, even without taking their free will, is because they have already consciously decided not to listen to Him, and He will not violate that choice. They have set themselves in opposition. It’s not that God can’t potentially convince them, the problem is that they will not even give Him the chance to. And He will not violate our free will to convince us we’re wrong. The kinds of sins that are “mortal sins” are mortal sins because one knows it’s wrong and grave and chooses to do so anyway, freely. Mortal sin is a conscious rejection of God, and if a soul dies in that state, that soul has condemned itself. They had to know condemnation was the result of their choice and done it anyway. They will not be forgiven because they will not ask for it. Forgiveness is offered as freely to them as anyone else. It is they who will not accept it. God can forgive someone even if they aren’t sorry, but if they aren’t sorry for their sins, they aren’t going to choose mercy and Heaven.

And this my friends is a good Bingo!

 

[glendab]

Hello Rinnie.

Just curious how do you get to heaven if you have defiance of Church teaching? Is it not the Church that is the pilar of all truth? How do you get into heaven without accepting truth that is given to you through the Church that was started by Christ?

What was his purpose of the Church, what was Gods plan that you believe outside of the Church? I was taught that all Salvation comes from Christ and he and his Church are one.

So is not defiance of the Church teaching defiance of Christ’s teaching? If not how do you separate Christ from his Church if they are one. Or do you reject that teaching?

You can’t. Extra Ecclesiam nula salus. That is the price some are willing to pay for their defiance. Oh well. Jesus will take them back if they turn to Him with their hearts.

Oh, I gotta say it Rinnie - I think you did **an excellent job **on this thread and I really got a lot out of your replies. Way to go! Keep up the good works!

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

And this my friends is a good Bingo!

Could God’s bingo be somewhat different from our bingo?

There is much written in the bible and some of it can seem contradictory, could it be that some things that seem contradictory are just complementary in ways that we just might not see?

God says a lot in the bible, one of those things that God says, is that even if we do not hold up our end of the bargain (Covenant) than God will hold up both ends of the Covenant, isn’t this written concerning God and at least some, if not all, of God’s Covenants with mankind?

 

[simpleas]

But why not? Is your Church not Catholic? Is not the word alone full of need for repentence. If not what scripture is your Church teaching and preaching?

Why not what? Do you mean that we aren’t constantly hearing we are sinners and need to repent like some old out of date protestant preacher?

Yes there are scripture teachings which make us think deeply that we should examine our conscience often and seek forgiveness, and repent with our hearts, but it’s not a topic that is referred to every week in a homily.

I think you asked me before was I catholic, I apologise if it was not you.

Funny the Gospel at tonights vigil Matt 21:28 reminds me just what Jesus was trying to tell us.

 

[simpleas]

Regarding this, I’m taking from this that your view is that some people can be saved even outside the Church, assuming they “find God.” Which, in a roundabout way, the Church teaches is possible. Somewhere in the Catechism (not familiar enough to know off the top of my head, and I’m in class so I can’t look it up right now), the point that people of other faiths can be saved and enter Heaven is discussed. However that is with the caveat that they still enter through Jesus. One cannot enter Heaven through any way but Jesus. Now, whether that means they accepted Him in this life or if He somehow reveals Himself to them before their judgement after they die is up to interpretation. I look at it as, they may not have proclaimed following Jesus, but through their actions in this life, DID follow His commandments. As a result, they would be in a sufficient state of grace, given to them by God to enter Purgatory and eventually Heaven. Perhaps in their case Purgatory would involve coming to an understanding that, though not “Christian” in name, they were Christian in deed and spirit. If nothing else, that makes sense to me, as far as how someone non-Christian could still enter Heaven, and do so through Christ.

Of course, that isn’t the ordinary way to enter Heaven, from a Catholic perspective. I would liken it to a person learning how to play the violin by teaching themselves rather than by learning the proper technique. Certainly, one can learn the instrument, but it would be more difficult, somewhat more haphazard, and playing classical music would be more difficult. Whereas someone classically trained would be able to play both classical and fiddle music, as they learned the “proper” way to play the violin. A Catholic receives all the training necessary to be a true follower of Christ. They have the rule book and all of the resources needed to fix things if they happen to mess up. Someone who is not Catholic, or moreso not Christian, has a more difficult time knowing what is necessary, though it certainly isn’t impossible for them to follow Christ, even if that isn’t what their explicit intent is. Harder, but not impossible.

Yeah there is this :

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

But it’s going off topic now…