Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[shelby_sun]

As God-Incarnate said to the Apostles when asked about “Who can be saved?”, "With man it is impossible but with God ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

Even tho we are a “hard-headed and thick-necked people” (or words to that effect), according to one of my namesakes, Jesus did try to tell us something here.

And as God said concerning His Covenant with man (whether one, some, most or all, I do not know but I have my belief concerning what it is), even if man does not live up to his part of the bargain, I WILL.

Seems as if this is another place that God was/is trying to get thru to us.

“Father forgive them, they know not what they do”, some look at this as just a few of the “them”, I look at it as ALL OF THE “THEM” of all time.

As I have said before, God has ALL of the bases covered so that we will ALL make it home.

As far as, “I’m not entirely sure how you came to this conclusion”, if you mean what I think you mean it could have to do with the fact that I have experienced hell and spiritual death.

Justice to me means justice not getting blood sucking revenge just because you can, just because this has the word “just” in it does NOT mean that it has anything to do with JUSTICE, especially DIVINE JUSTICE.

I don’t know exactly how or even care how God will bring God’s Will to Fruition but I , most definitely, believe that God’s Plan, which God has had since before creation, is catholic.

Yes, it is interesting Jesus told God to forgive those who killed them even though they were not sorry, did not ask for forgiveness.

I too believe with God all thing are possible. I can’t see how believe could see it any other way.

 

[Tom_Baum]

I do believe in trying to understand the mystery of eternity, you create a scenario that could only be hell: day, after day, after day, after day, after day . . .

If it this were the case, I would imagine in the New Jerusalem:
“Hey, I remember you; the guy on the Forums, right. I didn’t see you at the 20,000,000,000th annual reunion.”
“I decided to take a break every million years,”

It may boil down to: In forming who we are, there is but one life to live.

If at the core of each action lies a nonacceptance that one is not a god, the reality will hit pretty hard.
Giving back the love that God gives us, it grows within us. But if we are like the man who buried his talent, it will be taken back.
And, not day, after day, after day, after day . . . but in eternity. This is what we were given and this is what we did with it.

Whatever the “scenario” turns out to be I did not create it.

As far as “in trying to understand the mystery of eternity”, I have said that I accept that there are things that I think/believe are beyond not only my ability to conceive of but any human being’s.

What I have brought up is that some seem to think that God is gracious for letting people suffer in hell for ever and ever and ever and…, I, for one, can not see how anyone could call something like that “gracious”, can you?

Is this "for ever and ever and ever and…, what you are referring to when you wrote, “day, after day, after day, after day, after day”?

I have said that I believe that there is a difference between “forever” and “eternity”.

People bring up the “Beatific vision” as if they know exactly what it is and my opinion is that no one knows anything about exactly what the “Beatific vision” is exept for the words “Beatific vision”, do you have any thoughts concerning that?

Seems to me that those that bring up the “Beatific vision” seem to think that “heaven” whether eternal or everlasting will be spent staring at God.

Do you have a “clue” about the “Beatific vision” or what others might think concerning this?

I have no idea exactly what “heaven” might turn out to be but if hell is for ever and ever and ever and…, than that to me can not be looked at as “Justice” much less “Divine Justice”.

 

[oldcelt]

Whatever the “scenario” turns out to be I did not create it.

As far as “in trying to understand the mystery of eternity”, I have said that I accept that there are things that I think/believe are beyond not only my ability to conceive of but any human being’s.

What I have brought up is that some seem to think that God is gracious for letting people suffer in hell for ever and ever and ever and…, I, for one, can not see how anyone could call something like that “gracious”, can you?

Is this "for ever and ever and ever and…, what you are referring to when you wrote, “day, after day, after day, after day, after day”?

I have said that I believe that there is a difference between “forever” and “eternity”.

People bring up the “Beatific vision” as if they know exactly what it is and my opinion is that no one knows anything about exactly what the “Beatific vision” is exept for the words “Beatific vision”, do you have any thoughts concerning that?

Seems to me that those that bring up the “Beatific vision” seem to think that “heaven” whether eternal or everlasting will be spent staring at God.

Do you have a “clue” about the “Beatific vision” or what others might think concerning this?

I have no idea exactly what “heaven” might turn out to be but if hell is for ever and ever and ever and…, than that to me can not be looked at as “Justice” much less “Divine Justice”.

Good post.

 

[glendab]

Hello Shelby.

Yes, it is interesting Jesus told God to forgive those who killed them even though they were not sorry, did not ask for forgiveness.

I too believe with God all thing are possible. I can’t see how believe could see it any other way.

It is Scriptural that all things are possible with God, but this particular Scripture is meant for those who need to persevere in rough conditions or for those who try to rely solely on their own resources and think of asking God when all else fails. It probably could be applied in others ways too however I do know that it isn’t meant to be a negation of the eternity that Hell is. Hell is permanent and those who go there aren’t going to get a second chance and there won’t be any salvation for them after, as Tom envisions, they realize they are in Hell and begin to repent. Once you are in Hell is it too late to repent. That is what this thread is about. Nothing else, although lots has been brought up in it. You made your choices in life and that is how you get to Hell. It is utter nonsense to think otherwise. There are simply too many Church teachings to the contrary to take the notion that God will reach into Hell and save all those poor persons and beings that go there. To deny this very basic and fundamental understanding is to deny too much about the Church and what has been revealed by God about the consequences of sin. But if you have some sins in your life that you know are going to send you to Hell but aren’t willing to give up, then yeah, you’ll want to partner with some who believe that even after a lifetime of mortal sins, one gets the second chance of a life time in Hell. Ever here of the idea of the snowflake’s chance in Hell? The odds of Tom and a few others being right about all this is as great as that snowflake’s.

Glenda

 

[shelby_sun]

Hello Shelby.

It is Scriptural that all things are possible with God, but this particular Scripture is meant for those who need to persevere in rough conditions or for those who try to rely solely on their own resources and think of asking God when all else fails. It probably could be applied in others ways too however I do know that it isn’t meant to be a negation of the eternity that Hell is. Hell is permanent and those who go there aren’t going to get a second chance and there won’t be any salvation for them after, as Tom envisions, they realize they are in Hell and begin to repent. Once you are in Hell is it too late to repent. That is what this thread is about. Nothing else, although lots has been brought up in it. You made your choices in life and that is how you get to Hell. It is utter nonsense to think otherwise. There are simply too many Church teachings to the contrary to take the notion that God will reach into Hell and save all those poor persons and beings that go there. To deny this very basic and fundamental understanding is to deny too much about the Church and what has been revealed by God about the consequences of sin. But if you have some sins in your life that you know are going to send you to Hell but aren’t willing to give up, then yeah, you’ll want to partner with some who believe that even after a lifetime of mortal sins, one gets the second chance of a life time in Hell. Ever here of the idea of the snowflake’s chance in Hell? The odds of Tom and a few others being right about all this is as great as that snowflake’s.

Glenda

Well I am sorry you live your faith focusing on A God that condemns His children to hell, even the ones who have made mistakes. I was raised to focus on God’s love and mercy and the fact that with God all is possible. Now you seem to think that we believe we will get to have no matter what, but it really means is that we want to make God proud because we appreciate His love for us. You sound very limited; however, is not at all limited. You seem to be an expert on Hell, how is that?

 

[glendab]

Hello Shelby.

Well I am sorry you live your faith focusing on A God that condemns His children to hell, even the ones who have made mistakes. I was raised to focus on God’s love and mercy and the fact that with God all is possible. Now you seem to think that we believe we will get to have no matter what, but it really means is that we want to make God proud because we appreciate His love for us. You sound very limited; however, is not at all limited. You seem to be an expert on Hell, how is that?

Read what I wrote. I didn’t state that God “condemns His children to Hell.” Those are your words and they are a manifestation of what you would* like* what I said to mean, but that isn’t what I said. Not even close. If anyone condemns anyone to Hell it is the sinner and his or her un-repentance. And I’m not talking in this thread so much about sins of commission or omission, but sins against faith that are also un-repented of. One BIG one is the persistence in a denial of Hell and what we know about it. If a sin against faith is persisted in until death, then the sinner will go to Hell because they prefer having an opinion than taking on faith what is taught by the Church.

Glenda

 

[Aloysium]

God is Love, transcendent and eternally giving of Himself and within Himself.
All creation is an expression of His love, made in a process of journeying to Him.
Through Christ, we are to participate in eternal loving communion with Him.

John 15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. This is my command: Love each other.

Whatever one’s fears, hopes, ideas about the nature of love, the nature of hell, this informs us of our relationship with God, our duty to love and the consequences to all that is not love.
If one holds on to that which the world worships, one will burn with it. God’s will is that we return the love He gives us. If we do not, it will shrivel within us.

 

[shelby_sun]

Hello Shelby.

Read what I wrote. I didn’t state that God “condemns His children to Hell.” Those are your words and they are a manifestation of what you would* like* what I said to mean, but that isn’t what I said. Not even close. If anyone condemns anyone to Hell it is the sinner and his or her un-repentance. And I’m not talking in this thread so much about sins of commission or omission, but sins against faith that are also un-repented of. One BIG one is the persistence in a denial of Hell and what we know about it. If a sin against faith is persisted in until death, then the sinner will go to Hell because they prefer having an opinion than taking on faith what is taught by the Church.

Glenda

I do follow what is taught by the Church. You choose to focus on the darkness and sin and there are those of us who choose to focus on God’s love and mercy and that we are all HIs children. I am not the one so bold as to say who is and who is not going to hell, because only God knows. You are free to live your faith however you want.

 

[glendab]

Hello Shelby.

I am not the one so bold as to say who is and who is not going to hell, because only God knows. You are free to live your faith however you want.

I am only as bold as the Church is. God isn’t the only one who knows who is going to Hell. We have all been taught the same things:** that whoever dies in mortal sin will go to Hell.** That is what the Church has always taught and if you don’t believe that, then you don’t believe what the Church has taught. The only sin God cannot forgive is the one not brought to Him in the Confessional. The Church has always known and always taught that those who die unrepentant will go to Hell. Jesus is the only way out of that, so no amount of twisting His words will change that. No matter how much God loves you, if you die in mortal sin there is only one outcome - Hell. God’s love won’t save you from the consequences you bring on yourself. I know this, I believe it, I live it. So, as for your “permission” to live my faith however I want, fortunately for me I have a sincere desire to live my faith the way God intended it to be lived - faithfully. I believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches because God has revealed it Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. It isn’t a matter of opinion. It is a matter of faith.

Glenda

 

[powerofk]

Hello Shelby.

I am only as bold as the Church is. God isn’t the only one who knows who is going to Hell. We have all been taught the same things:** that whoever dies in mortal sin will go to Hell.** That is what the Church has always taught and if you don’t believe that, then you don’t believe what the Church has taught. The only sin God cannot forgive is the one not brought to Him in the Confessional. The Church has always known and always taught that those who die unrepentant will go to Hell. Jesus is the only way out of that, so no amount of twisting His words will change that. No matter how much God loves you, if you die in mortal sin there is only one outcome - Hell. God’s love won’t save you from the consequences you bring on yourself. I know this, I believe it, I live it. So, as for your “permission” to live my faith however I want, fortunately for me I have a sincere desire to live my faith the way God intended it to be lived - faithfully. I believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches because God has revealed it Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. It isn’t a matter of opinion. It is a matter of faith.

Glenda

Honestly, we need to keep both the idea of God’s mercy and the idea of Hell in our minds and hearts. Overemphasis on Hell can push one towards scrupulosity or like the steward who buried his talents in fear (and thus ended up in Hell, anyway). Overemphasis on mercy can lead to the idea of universal salvation, which leads to the idea that “It doesn’t matter what I do, I’ll go to Heaven, anyway.” God is merciful, but only to those who accept His mercy. He will not force His mercy on those who will not accept it. Yet, we have to remember that His mercy is greater than any sin that we could commit and loves us unconditionally.

 

[shelby_sun]

Hello Shelby.

I am only as bold as the Church is. God isn’t the only one who knows who is going to Hell. We have all been taught the same things:** that whoever dies in mortal sin will go to Hell.** That is what the Church has always taught and if you don’t believe that, then you don’t believe what the Church has taught. The only sin God cannot forgive is the one not brought to Him in the Confessional. The Church has always known and always taught that those who die unrepentant will go to Hell. Jesus is the only way out of that, so no amount of twisting His words will change that. No matter how much God loves you, if you die in mortal sin there is only one outcome - Hell. God’s love won’t save you from the consequences you bring on yourself. I know this, I believe it, I live it. So, as for your “permission” to live my faith however I want, fortunately for me I have a sincere desire to live my faith the way God intended it to be lived - faithfully. I believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches because God has revealed it Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. It isn’t a matter of opinion. It is a matter of faith.

Glenda

Faith is not facts, it is beliefs. The Church does not know everything God knows and we still have more to learn.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Shelby.

It is Scriptural that all things are possible with God, but this particular Scripture is meant for those who need to persevere in rough conditions or for those who try to rely solely on their own resources and think of asking God when all else fails. It probably could be applied in others ways too however I do know that it isn’t meant to be a negation of the eternity that Hell is. Hell is permanent and those who go there aren’t going to get a second chance and there won’t be any salvation for them after, as Tom envisions, they realize they are in Hell and begin to repent. Once you are in Hell is it too late to repent. That is what this thread is about. Nothing else, although lots has been brought up in it. You made your choices in life and that is how you get to Hell. It is utter nonsense to think otherwise. There are simply too many Church teachings to the contrary to take the notion that God will reach into Hell and save all those poor persons and beings that go there. To deny this very basic and fundamental understanding is to deny too much about the Church and what has been revealed by God about the consequences of sin. But if you have some sins in your life that you know are going to send you to Hell but aren’t willing to give up, then yeah, you’ll want to partner with some who believe that even after a lifetime of mortal sins, one gets the second chance of a life time in Hell. Ever here of the idea of the snowflake’s chance in Hell? The odds of Tom and a few others being right about all this is as great as that snowflake’s.

Glenda

Actually, as far as, “as Tom envisions, they realize they are in Hell and begin to repent.”

One of the things that I have said about hell is that one will come to the realization that they built it themself.

Hell is not some monolithic place that God created.

Why do you think that God came up with the “idea” that hell would be “built by its inhabitant”?

Or do you think/believe that God created hell?

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Shelby.

I am only as bold as the Church is. God isn’t the only one who knows who is going to Hell. We have all been taught the same things:** that whoever dies in mortal sin will go to Hell.** That is what the Church has always taught and if you don’t believe that, then you don’t believe what the Church has taught. The only sin God cannot forgive is the one not brought to Him in the Confessional. The Church has always known and always taught that those who die unrepentant will go to Hell. Jesus is the only way out of that, so no amount of twisting His words will change that. No matter how much God loves you, if you die in mortal sin there is only one outcome - Hell. God’s love won’t save you from the consequences you bring on yourself. I know this, I believe it, I live it. So, as for your “permission” to live my faith however I want, fortunately for me I have a sincere desire to live my faith the way God intended it to be lived - faithfully. I believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches because God has revealed it Who can neither deceive nor be deceived. It isn’t a matter of opinion. It is a matter of faith.

Glenda

As far as, “The only sin God cannot forgive is the one not brought to Him in the Confessional.”

Do you really believe that this is a “Church” belief?

This is NOT even close to a belief of the Church especially considering that the Church believes that one need not be a Christian much less a Roman Catholic Christian to be saved.

 

[arte]

Hello Arte.

A few little questions: How did you say “Amen” yesterday after reciting the Creed at Mass if you don’t really believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches? Did you go up for Communion? Why if you aren’t in communion with the Church on some basic things, evolution, original sin, etc.? If your answer is “yes” to those three questions, can you explain how you can call other Christians “liars” and present yourself for Communion yet aren’t really accepting of what is necessary to receive worthily? Whose the liar now? Only your lie is a big one. When you say Amen in Church after reciting the Creed, you are in effect, swearing to God publically that you believe all things that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches and you are giving your assent to those things in front of everyone there. We are each others witnesses in this and the Priest is receiving this oath on behalf of the whole Church. This is why it is obligatory for us to recite the Creed on Sundays and why it happens before the Eucharistic prayers. This is something you learn when you go to RCIA. You aren’t allowed to say the Creed in public for that very reason, because until you can give your assent and swear to God that you believe, you are dismissed from witnessing the Eucharistic parts of the Mass. I went thru RCIA and until you are considered worthy you get dismissed. You are given a copy of the Creed formally and it means you are now not only worthy to receive the Blessed Sacrament, but that you can actually swear to God in Mass that you believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches. It means those instructing you are also sure that you DO believe for they too are bound by oath before God. Otherwise you are committing a mortal sin. You will be also committing sacrilege to receive Communion unworthily because you don’t believe some things.

So, that said Arte, can you explain your positions and your reception of the Eucharist and the Creed you read at Church?

Glenda

I apologise to you and anyone else on this forum for raising the subject of evolution. I especially apologise to Amandil because my reply was to Amandil’s post. The theory of evolution can be polarising for many Christians so I was wrong to raise it here. With the exception of writing about it now, I will not raise it again unless a forum member replies to me about evolution. Even then, I will quickly answer their question and not discuss it further unless they want to contact me privately. I also said: “To call evolution a fallacy is to DENY THE REAL TRUTH” and “no matter what you believe, you and every other human that has ever lived on this planet are descendants of ape like creatures”. I should not have used such strong language to reply to Amandil’s post. I was annoyed and allowed anger to influence my writing - a sin that I have asked God for forgiveness.

The theory of evolution is recognised by our Church. However, it’s up to you whether you want to believe in it or not. The theory of evolution is taught in Catholic schools, other Christian faith based schools, and obviously in secular schools. I emigrated from the UK to New Zealand. In New Zealand, all schools follow the same or similar syllabi on every subject because they have to meet set government national standards. I checked the evolution curriculum for 2 faith based schools in my neighbourhood. Sancta Maria College (Catholic) and Elim College (Protestant) and they were both identical.

As for accusing some other Christian organisations for being deceitful (basically telling lies) about evolution, unfortunately, this is the case. There is no other way of putting it and it really pains me to write this now. I could be totally wrong and would love to be proved that I am. The main Christian organisation that published a list of hundreds of scientists who they said were anti evolution and that there was a big debate amongst scientists about the validity of evolution is called the Discovery Institute in the US. Many of the scientists on the list were not qualified in a science subject related to evolution. Some others on the list were pro evolution scientists who had been quoted out of context. My information is dated so hopefully the list no longer exists. Please see the following YouTube link:
youtube.com/watch?v=Ty1Bo6GmPqM

CONT’D

 

[arte]

Hello Arte.

A few little questions: How did you say “Amen” yesterday after reciting the Creed at Mass if you don’t really believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches? Did you go up for Communion? Why if you aren’t in communion with the Church on some basic things, evolution, original sin, etc.? If your answer is “yes” to those three questions, can you explain how you can call other Christians “liars” and present yourself for Communion yet aren’t really accepting of what is necessary to receive worthily? Whose the liar now? Only your lie is a big one. When you say Amen in Church after reciting the Creed, you are in effect, swearing to God publically that you believe all things that the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches and you are giving your assent to those things in front of everyone there. We are each others witnesses in this and the Priest is receiving this oath on behalf of the whole Church. This is why it is obligatory for us to recite the Creed on Sundays and why it happens before the Eucharistic prayers. This is something you learn when you go to RCIA. You aren’t allowed to say the Creed in public for that very reason, because until you can give your assent and swear to God that you believe, you are dismissed from witnessing the Eucharistic parts of the Mass. I went thru RCIA and until you are considered worthy you get dismissed. You are given a copy of the Creed formally and it means you are now not only worthy to receive the Blessed Sacrament, but that you can actually swear to God in Mass that you believe all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches. It means those instructing you are also sure that you DO believe for they too are bound by oath before God. Otherwise you are committing a mortal sin. You will be also committing sacrilege to receive Communion unworthily because you don’t believe some things.

So, that said Arte, can you explain your positions and your reception of the Eucharist and the Creed you read at Church?

Glenda

CONT’D

There is DEFINITELY no debate in the scientific community on the validity of the theory of evolution. On the contrary, scientists are adding to its validity. To add to my position on the subject of certain Christian organisations lying in the debate against evolution, please read below. It is a part of the summing up by Judge E Jones in the Kitzmiller vs. Dover Area School District in 2005 in the US: **“The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID (Intelligent Design – my words) Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. **

From what I have researched, these Christian organisations are fundamentalist Christian organisations who take the Bible literally, word for word. They believed in Creationalism, then Intelligent Design, and now Creation Science. If we lived in a Christian theocracy with them in charge, there wouldn’t be much difference between them and the Taliban.

There are 4 Catholic Creeds and the one spoken in Mass is the Nicene Creed. I am assuming that your post (please correct me if I’m wrong) only concerns the parts of the Nicene Creed that may be questionable because of my disbeliefs. They are: “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”.

I do believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. It doesn’t say anything about you have to believe in everything the Church teaches. The word Catholic means: “including or concerning all humankind; universal”, so we are including all mankind in the above statement. I believe the Pope is also the Vicar of the Universal Church. Notice that the “catholic” in the Nicene Creed does not have “Roman” in front of it. Also, it doesn’t say all other churches are false. I believe that this is mainly because there are 7 Catholic Rites (I was taught there were 5): Latin (us), Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, Chaldean, Syrian and Constantinopolitan. Our church is the Western Catholic Church and the others are Eastern Catholic Churches which I believe includes the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches. Not sure where the Maronite and Coptic Churches fit in? As an aside, Armenia was the first country in the World to adopt Christianity as its official religion in AD 301. From the Catholic Encyclopedia and Catholic News Agency: “All of them are of equal dignity and equally valid”. Apparently, if you go to Mass on Sunday in one of them, it equates to going to Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. Eastern Catholic Churches never accepted Augustine of Hippo’s notions of original sin and hereditary guilt. I could get out of the Nicene Creed that way on Original Sin but I do not choose to. The Nicene Creed states: “We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. It does not say: “including Original Sin”. I believe your sins were forgiven when you were baptised as a RCIA because your sins were sins that an adult commits and not a baby.

I cannot see why my disbeliefs prevent me from receiving Holy Communion. In my mind, they are not mortal sins. I am raising God’s love to the level that our Pope wants us to use when evangelising. Mission Sunday Papal Message; Pope Francis: “Tell the World of His (God’s – my words) love”. Unfortunately, God’s love is not that great because if you are a Catholic and deliberately miss Mass on a Sunday and die before asking this loving God for forgiveness, you’ll end up being tortured 24/7 for eternity. Can’t you see the disconnect there somewhere? How do I evangelise on this teaching of God’s love?

I am also looking at my beliefs as a man of the 21st Century and not someone living in the iron/bronze age.

 

[arte]

It sure does seem at times that some of the ones who seem to know the most about “religious rules and regulations” have quite a horrific view of God’s Justice.

This “view” sure makes some of the “blood sucking views” of human justice seem to be lenient to the point of absurdity.

One of the things about some people’s “conception” of heaven is that there will be quite a bit of room to do many things since there will not be that many to take up a lot of space.

It simply amazes me that some can have such a horrible, horrible conception of God and yet use such wonderful adjectives to describe God.

I hope, pray, beg and beseech God to do what some say is impossible for God to do, if God is even remotely like what some believe God To Be, and that is to completely destroy me, to unexist me.

Hi Tom,

I completely agree with everything that you have written here especially:

**It sure does seem at times that some of the ones who seem to know the most about “religious rules and regulations” have quite a horrific view of God’s Justice.
**
This has been shown to be the case on this forum. We shouldn’t generalise but at times it seems to me like the Pharisees all over again.

**This “view” sure makes some of the “blood sucking views” of human justice seem to be lenient to the point of absurdity.
**
I have repeatedly compared human justice systems with those of God. It’s obvious to me that mere human beings can produce a more equitable justice system than an omnipotent being. God has only one default justice system for those that break His or our Church’s laws – torture in a lake of fire 24/7 for eternity.

**It simply amazes me that some can have such a horrible, horrible conception of God and yet use such wonderful adjectives to describe God.
**

Some wonderful adjectives to describe God: The Bible tells us that God is Love. From 1 John 4:8 “Anyone who does not love does not know God, **because God is love”. **

I just chose the following at random from the “All about God website”: God’s love is unconditional. Can anyone really comprehend “unconditional” love? It seems the love that parents have for their children is as close to unconditional love as we can get without the help of God’s love in our lives. This is similar to God’s love for us, **but God’s love transcends the human definition of love to a point that is hard for us to comprehend.
**

God is full of mercy, grace, and forgiveness – my own words.

However, this God who has all those incredibly mind boggling attributes above will allow a soul to be sent to hell for eternity because the soul has one non confessed mortal sin on its soul. ** It beggars belief.**

 

[glendab]

Hello Arte.

CONT’D

There is DEFINITELY no debate in the scientific community on the validity of the theory of evolution. On the contrary, scientists are adding to its validity. To add to my position on the subject of certain Christian organisations lying in the debate against evolution, please read below. It is a part of the summing up by Judge E Jones in the Kitzmiller vs. Dover Area School District in 2005 in the US: **“The citizens of the Dover area were poorly served by the members of the Board who voted for the ID (Intelligent Design – my words) Policy. It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy. **

From what I have researched, these Christian organisations are fundamentalist Christian organisations who take the Bible literally, word for word. They believed in Creationalism, then Intelligent Design, and now Creation Science. If we lived in a Christian theocracy with them in charge, there wouldn’t be much difference between them and the Taliban.

There are 4 Catholic Creeds and the one spoken in Mass is the Nicene Creed. I am assuming that your post (please correct me if I’m wrong) only concerns the parts of the Nicene Creed that may be questionable because of my disbeliefs. They are: “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”.

I do believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. It doesn’t say anything about you have to believe in everything the Church teaches. The word Catholic means: “including or concerning all humankind; universal”, so we are including all mankind in the above statement. I believe the Pope is also the Vicar of the Universal Church. Notice that the “catholic” in the Nicene Creed does not have “Roman” in front of it. Also, it doesn’t say all other churches are false. I believe that this is mainly because there are 7 Catholic Rites (I was taught there were 5): Latin (us), Alexandrian, Antiochian, Armenian, Chaldean, Syrian and Constantinopolitan. Our church is the Western Catholic Church and the others are Eastern Catholic Churches which I believe includes the Greek and Russian Orthodox Churches. Not sure where the Maronite and Coptic Churches fit in? As an aside, Armenia was the first country in the World to adopt Christianity as its official religion in AD 301. From the Catholic Encyclopedia and Catholic News Agency: “All of them are of equal dignity and equally valid”. Apparently, if you go to Mass on Sunday in one of them, it equates to going to Mass in a Roman Catholic Church. Eastern Catholic Churches never accepted Augustine of Hippo’s notions of original sin and hereditary guilt. I could get out of the Nicene Creed that way on Original Sin but I do not choose to. The Nicene Creed states: “We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins”. It does not say: “including Original Sin”. I believe your sins were forgiven when you were baptised as a RCIA because your sins were sins that an adult commits and not a baby.

I cannot see why my disbeliefs prevent me from receiving Holy Communion. In my mind, they are not mortal sins. I am raising God’s love to the level that our Pope wants us to use when evangelising. Mission Sunday Papal Message; Pope Francis: “Tell the World of His (God’s – my words) love”. Unfortunately, God’s love is not that great because if you are a Catholic and deliberately miss Mass on a Sunday and die before asking this loving God for forgiveness, you’ll end up being tortured 24/7 for eternity. Can’t you see the disconnect there somewhere? How do I evangelise on this teaching of God’s love?

I am also looking at my beliefs as a man of the 21st Century and not someone living in the iron/bronze age.

Thank you for your reply. I understand - your belief system prevents you from seeing anything wrong with your beliefs. However, if there wasn’t a disagreement with what the Church actually requires us to believe, or as is the case of this thread, disbelieve, then you’d be fine and wouldn’t even be bothering to write as much as you have here on this thread. The eternal punishments of Hell would be a non-issue with you and there would be not much to say. But you don’t share our common beliefs, Original sin, Hell, evolution, etc. that you’ve already disclosed here and else where. I went through RCIA and we were told that until we could give our assent to all that was required of us to believe then we wouldn’t be worthy to receive the Eucharist. That we were going to be getting exposed to all of that over the months ahead and if we had any questions about the basic beliefs of the Church the months we studied were to help us prepare for worthy reception of the Sacraments. This is the same for all Christians. One isn’t automatically worthy and if one doesn’t believe what is required, then one cannot receive because one’s communion with God and His Church would not exist so the communion part of Holy Communion would be false and thereby sacrilegious. A person cannot just declare himself or herself worthy and go up to receive!

But if you don’t believe this then there is nothing I can tell you to heal your unbelief. That is between you and God and I hope you one day resolve it. Thanks for you candid replies and for clearing up the limits to your beliefs for the rest of us.

Glenda

 

[shelby_sun]

Hello Arte.

Thank you for your reply. I understand - your belief system prevents you from seeing anything wrong with your beliefs. However, if there wasn’t a disagreement with what the Church actually requires us to believe, or as is the case of this thread, disbelieve, then you’d be fine and wouldn’t even be bothering to write as much as you have here on this thread. The eternal punishments of Hell would be a non-issue with you and there would be not much to say. But you don’t share our common beliefs, Original sin, Hell, evolution, etc. that you’ve already disclosed here and else where. I went through RCIA and we were told that until we could give our assent to all that was required of us to believe then we wouldn’t be worthy to receive the Eucharist. That we were going to be getting exposed to all of that over the months ahead and if we had any questions about the basic beliefs of the Church the months we studied were to help us prepare for worthy reception of the Sacraments. This is the same for all Christians. One isn’t automatically worthy and if one doesn’t believe what is required, then one cannot receive because one’s communion with God and His Church would not exist so the communion part of Holy Communion would be false and thereby sacrilegious. A person cannot just declare himself or herself worthy and go up to receive!

But if you don’t believe this then there is nothing I can tell you to heal your unbelief. That is between you and God and I hope you one day resolve it. Thanks for you candid replies and for clearing up the limits to your beliefs for the rest of us.

Glenda

Actually Arte’s beliefs are not the ones that are limited, yours however are. You limit God to be only what the Catholic Church has said, yet God is not done revealing Himself to us. Not to generalize, but I have found time and time again that those adults who go through RCIA seem to be the most closed mind to all the possibilities of God.

Would it bother you if God allowed someone into heaven that you thought was too much of a sinner? Would it bother you to find Buddist or Jews there or would just feel blessed to have received such grace to get there. Can you not see the huge contradiction between a God who loves all His children unconditionally and Father who condemns His child to hell forever. As a mother I could never do that could you?

 

[simpleas]

Hello Arte.

Thank you for your reply. I understand - your belief system prevents you from seeing anything wrong with your beliefs. However, if there wasn’t a disagreement with what the Church actually requires us to believe, or as is the case of this thread, disbelieve, then you’d be fine and wouldn’t even be bothering to write as much as you have here on this thread. The eternal punishments of Hell would be a non-issue with you and there would be not much to say. But you don’t share our common beliefs, Original sin, Hell, evolution, etc. that you’ve already disclosed here and else where. I went through RCIA and we were told that until we could give our assent to all that was required of us to believe then we wouldn’t be worthy to receive the Eucharist. That we were going to be getting exposed to all of that over the months ahead and if we had any questions about the basic beliefs of the Church the months we studied were to help us prepare for worthy reception of the Sacraments. This is the same for all Christians. One isn’t automatically worthy and if one doesn’t believe what is required, then one cannot receive because one’s communion with God and His Church would not exist so the communion part of Holy Communion would be false and thereby sacrilegious. A person cannot just declare himself or herself worthy and go up to receive!

But if you don’t believe this then there is nothing I can tell you to heal your unbelief. That is between you and God and I hope you one day resolve it. Thanks for you candid replies and for clearing up the limits to your beliefs for the rest of us.

Glenda

You sound like you are very devote and this is a great thing for you, and in my opinion, as long as you can be devoted without making others Catholic or not, feel excluded, you would be of help to many people.

I could be wrong, but I think that there is a sort of difference between a person finding God and converting as a Adult and a person who is brought up in the faith. As a adult a person may recognise with more intelligence what the whole process of the sacraments are, many question’s need answering and as a adult this can be sort through.
As a child, a person is brought into the faith as a baby, holy communion and confirmation are what is the norm and expected of all Catholic children. I know catechists do their best in explaining why it is important, but it is done in a child like way, because children don’t often ask a harder question as would an adult.
I know that my teaching I have received from a cradle catholic has been about God’s love and mercy, rather than teaching that if we don’t make the grade, then God will not take us home to his divine house and will send us to hell, because we wanted hell all along.

Would catholicism survive without the teaching of hell? Question for another thread, but I think it would thrive, people believing in a God of complete love and mercy, as human’s forgiving each other and seeking to honor God through the love an acceptance that not everyone understands, believes, practises the same way that they do.

I love my faith, I have some struggles with it, I think most everyone does at some time in their live, some people are strong in faith, some are weak. But we are all in this together.

 

[glendab]

Hello Shelby.

Actually Arte’s beliefs are not the ones that are limited, yours however are. You limit God to be only what the Catholic Church has said, yet God is not done revealing Himself to us. Not to generalize, but I have found time and time again that those adults who go through RCIA seem to be the most closed mind to all the possibilities of God.

Would it bother you if God allowed someone into heaven that you thought was too much of a sinner? Would it bother you to find Buddist or Jews there or would just feel blessed to have received such grace to get there. Can you not see the huge contradiction between a God who loves all His children unconditionally and Father who condemns His child to hell forever. As a mother I could never do that could you?

That’s right. I keep my thinking limited to that which is worth thinking about - all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches and guess what? My limits then become limitless for I will be focusing on God. Contemplation beats speculation by a hundred miles. God Himself has revealed all that He wants us to know about Him in His Church who is charged with handing on the Faith, whole and entire and as unblemished as the Lamb Who was slain for her. There is nothing new in her. She is as ageless and as beautiful to behold as her Bridegroom.

God doesn’t “allow” people into Heaven. People by their sins exclude themselves. I think the Buddhist has about the same chance of getting to Heaven as the Jew and if either of them get there it will be through the Mercy of God not because someone else or God gave them permission to enter. Not to de-rail the thread, but I do not believe in any “unconditional love of God.” Not one little bit. God’s love has conditions and when conditions are met, Heaven is the outcome, but most of us will have a little Purgatory to look forward to first. And I know you will ignore this next, because I’ve said it several times to you already, but I’ll say it again - God doesn’t condemn anyone to Hell. They choose it for themselves. Hell is real. It lasts forever. No second chance once there. It is a choice some make after getting very acquainted with Jesus Christ. But guess what? If you’re headed in the wrong direction, God does allow U-turns? The Statie may not, so turn slowly.

Glenda