Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[shelby_sun]

Hello Shelby.

That’s right. I keep my thinking limited to that which is worth thinking about - all the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches and guess what? My limits then become limitless for I will be focusing on God. Contemplation beats speculation by a hundred miles. God Himself has revealed all that He wants us to know about Him in His Church who is charged with handing on the Faith, whole and entire and as unblemished as the Lamb Who was slain for her. There is nothing new in her. She is as ageless and as beautiful to behold as her Bridegroom.

God doesn’t “allow” people into Heaven. People by their sins exclude themselves. I think the Buddhist has about the same chance of getting to Heaven as the Jew and if either of them get there it will be through the Mercy of God not because someone else or God gave them permission to enter. Not to de-rail the thread, but I do not believe in any “unconditional love of God.” Not one little bit. God’s love has conditions and when conditions are met, Heaven is the outcome, but most of us will have a little Purgatory to look forward to first. And I know you will ignore this next, because I’ve said it several times to you already, but I’ll say it again - God doesn’t condemn anyone to Hell. They choose it for themselves. Hell is real. It lasts forever. No second chance once there. It is a choice some make after getting very acquainted with Jesus Christ. But guess what? If you’re headed in the wrong direction, God does allow U-turns? The Statie may not, so turn slowly.

Glenda

Thank you Glenda for the advice, but I think I will continue to get my spiritual guidance from the many wonderful priest I am lucky enough to know, none of who believe God has revealed everything to the Church yet, but you are free to believe what you like

 

[arte]

You think 1 thousand, 10 thousand years, hell 1 million years of misery in a temporary hell would be like a walk in the park. By the same token, why try and be a law-abiding citizen, after all, with most crimes, you eventually come out of prison? Going to prison, even for 6 months, I assume, is extremely high on the list of things people are extremely motivated to avoid. If this is your only rationale for hell, i’m afraid it’s unfounded.

Moreover, God does not do anyone a favour by “sending” them to hell, as if being in his presence would be so bad that hell becomes God’s safe haven for people who can,t stand him. The reality is that God determined what are the conditons to be eternally damned, the minimum condiiton being one mortal sin, and that hell serves no other purpose than for God’s justice to be satisfied. Hell exists not out of compassion for the damned, its sole purpose is God’s justice. The best-case scenario would have been Heaven as the prize for being good, and temporary punishment and then annihilation for the rest of us. It sucks to only exist to glorify God’s justice, though.

I agree with everything that you’ve written nownzen. The rational for having an eternity in hell because without it people would not strive to go to Heaven is completely unfounded (unjustifiable). Hell sounds a horrendous place even for 5 seconds let alone a thousand years! The concept that people love their sins so much that they would rather be in hell than with God in Heaven is unfathomable. Also, the quote from C S Lewis that has been used on this forum “that the door to hell is locked from the inside” is absolutely incredulous.

Let’s take a little scenario. A guy steals your car and gets caught by the police. He is found guilty in a secular justice system and receives an eighteen months jail sentence.

Now, let’s move the offence to a Muslim country where the justice system is Sharia Law under the religion of Islam. The offender is found guilty. It depends on the Muslim country what his punishment will be. It could be jail as in a secular justice system or a deep cut in a hand. In the most severe interpretations of Sharia Law practised by people like the Taliban, he could have a hand amputated. I thought amputation was common in Muslim countries for stealing but from what I have just read, in modern Muslim countries, this isn’t the case.

Now let’s look at God’s divine justice. If the thief crashed the car and died, he would go to hell for eternity. You can go to hell for eternity for a lesser crime (sin) than stealing a car if the sin is deemed to be a mortal sin.

As for your best case scenario nownzen, in Judaism the longest someone spends in their form of hell (sheol?) is 12 months. If you are really evil, then you receive the 12 months sentence and after this your soul is obliterated.

From all of the above and nownzen’s post, Divine Justice is completely out of kilter with the sin committed. I know there are some really evil people out there but being put in a lake of fire for eternity is horrendous justice. What we must also understand is that the vast majority of humans sentenced to hell are not those really evil people. Even for those really evil people, surely there’s a more humane form of punishment.

 

[bisco]

i’m afraid you’re mistaken. there are different levels of punishment, and different levels of reward. some people here who claim to be Catholic need to read the bible and the CCC.

 

[Aloysium]

Because people come up with all sorts of opinions, the Church, established by Jesus and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is mandated to dfetermine the meaning of revealed truth.
That is why we have a Magisterium, a Catechism and Scripture.
We depart from its teachings at our peril.

While we have free will and we can do or believe whatever we want, this does not make it good or truth. The ultimate Truth lies in our relationship with God.
We should focus on Him, on Love.
I’m not sure what this thread is all about, but to paraphrase Freddy Nietzsche, who reveals much of what life is without love, if you gaze into hell it can engulf you.

 

[bisco]

well said.

 

[arte]

i’m afraid you’re mistaken. there are different levels of punishment, and different levels of reward. some people here who claim to be Catholic need to read the bible and the CCC.

Because people come up with all sorts of opinions, the Church, established by Jesus and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is mandated to dfetermine the meaning of revealed truth.
That is why we have a Magisterium, a Catechism and Scripture.
We depart from its teachings at our peril.

While we have free will and we can do or believe whatever we want, this does not make it good or truth. The ultimate Truth lies in our relationship with God.
We should focus on Him, on Love.
I’m not sure what this thread is all about, but to paraphrase Freddy Nietzsche, who reveals much of what life is without love, if you gaze into hell it can engulf you.

Hi bisco and Aloysium

I was aware of different levels of reward in Heaven but not of different levels of punishment in hell. I searched on the CCC Vatican website and couldn’t find anything on the subject. I did find this on Catholic Answers: the Bible references for different levels of punishment in hell are: Matthew 11:22 and Luke 20:47. When you read the context of Matthew 11:22 with its surrounding verses, the link to different levels of punishment in hell is tenuous. However, Luke 20:47 in context with its surrounding verses is valid and “essentially” states that people in religious positions will be punished more severely. We have seen this mentioned often on this thread. If I have missed out a Bible reference or you know a CCC reference, for different levels of punishment in hell that could be helpful, please provide them.

Also from Catholic Answers: St. Augustine teaches “In their wretchedness the lot of some of the damned will be more tolerable than that of others. **Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt.” **(Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, 482)

The punishment in hell as stated above is no where near: “Justice demands that the punishment be commensurate with the guilt”. The hypothetical “car thief” in my post would get fairer justice in a modern Muslim country under Islamic Sharia Law than he would under God’s Divine Justice. Now that says a lot about God’s Divine Justice. Therefore, bisco, your statement: **“I’m afraid you’re mistaken. there are different levels of punishment. Some people here who claim to be Catholic need to read the bible and the CCC” **doesn’t show God’s Divine Justice being anywhere near as equitable as human justice. From what I’ve read on the different levels of punishment in hell, nothing states that the soul in hell is released from eternal punishment. The hypothetical “car thief” is released from prison after serving his prison sentence.

Aloysium, your statement: **“I’m not sure what this thread is all about” **is borne out by your post. However, your post is very helpful especially: We should focus on Him (God – my words), on Love. I do exactly that and if you do as well, don’t you see any disconnect between God’s love and eternal punishment in hell? We are told that God’s love for His children (us) is far greater than our love for our children. I’ve gone through what comes next countless times with people on this forum so for a change I’ll quote from a part of shelby sun’s Post # 953 on page 64: “Can you not see the huge contradiction between a God who loves all His children unconditionally and a Father who condemns His child to hell forever? As a mother I could never do that, could you?”

 

[Amandil]

Hell is commensurate with the guilt of sin. Sin is an offense against God’s eternal majesty, sin is pride and idolatry, placing created things over and above God and the love and obedience due Him.

“The wages of sin is death.” Thus the guilt of sin is necessarily eternal-eternal separation from God.

Your problem is that you are blinded by your emotions to see just how truly ugly, abhorrant, and reprehensable sin really is.

 

[bisco]

arte, i don’t see why you are trying to compare hell to sharia law. one has nothing to do with the other. jesus tells us the truth, you don’t have to accept it, if you don’t want to. plenty of atheists think that they are more loving and compassionate than God. to their detriment.

 

[Vico]

Hell is commensurate with the guilt of sin. Sin is an offense against God’s eternal majesty, sin is pride and idolatry, placing created things over and above God and the love and obedience due Him.

“The wages of sin is death.” Thus the guilt of sin is necessarily eternal-eternal separation from God.

Your problem is that you are blinded by your emotions to see just how truly ugly, abhorrant, and reprehensable sin really is.

If you are not careful with accusations, you may be banned from the forum.

 

[bisco]

vico, are you a moderator? i don’t see anything accusatory in amandil’s post?

 

[Faxero]

vico, are you a moderator? i don’t see anything accusatory in amandil’s post?

Your problem is that you are blinded by your emotions to see just how truly ugly, abhorrant, and reprehensable sin really is.

---

Why is Hell eternal?

Hell is eternal because the soul in Hell will never cease to hate God.

Why? Because he or she no longer has the privilege of free-will which he or she has had while on Earth.

If one dies while loving God, he or she will continue to love God in the afterlife.
If one dies while hating God, he or she will continue to hate God in the afterlife.

This same logic is applicable to Heaven. The souls in Heaven have already used their free-will on Earth to accept God. Their free-will is taken away as soon as they beheld the beatific vision of God, the ultimate award. Nothing but love is theirs now.

Free-will is the key to answering the eternities of both Heaven and Hell.

 

[bisco]

if that statement can get you banned, there won’t be enough faithful catholics left here to correct the heretics.

 

[glendab]

Hello Bisco.

if that statement can get you banned, there won’t be enough faithful catholics left here to correct the heretics.

Sounds like a game plan. Find out where the buttons are on the faithful types, push them long enough to have them say something “uncharitable,” complain loudly enough and get them banned. Then the only ones left to comment on everything will be the hhhhhhhhh’s and everyone can go home now because only the hhhhhhhhh’s will be speaking for the Catholic Church because they got so good at getting the faithful passionate types kicked out of a Catholic Apologetic Forum where the only goal should be to defend the Church.

But the gates of the nether world will never prevail, no matter how many of us get our butts whipped a few times at the Forum.

Glenda

 

[bisco]

i wish we had a ‘like’ button.

 

[Ignatius]

Is it possible for God to eventually relent? Is there some type of stain on these souls that God cannot cleanse or change? Sure, the damned are in Hell due to their own free-will, but that does not mean that they would not repent under the right conditions.

It is possible that the culpability of a given individual may be mitigated.

 

[bisco]

after they’ve been condemned to hell?

 

[Vico]

vico, are you a moderator? i don’t see anything accusatory in amandil’s post?

No. This is accusatory: “Your problem is that you are …”.

Forum Rule 1: “Messages posted to this board must be polite…”

I am hoping that a *valued *forum contributor will not get banned even for a short time.

 

[bisco]

understood. but i think if you read the last 60+ pages, you would see how things devolve. a valued member should never be banned for reacting to the baiting of a troll.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Hell is commensurate with the guilt of sin. Sin is an offense against God’s eternal majesty, sin is pride and idolatry, placing created things over and above God and the love and obedience due Him.

“The wages of sin is death.” Thus the guilt of sin is necessarily eternal-eternal separation from God.

Your problem is that you are blinded by your emotions to see just how truly ugly, abhorrant, and reprehensable sin really is.

You wrote, “Hell is commensurate with the guilt of sin.”

And you wrote, “The wages of sin is death.”

So it stands to reason that since Jesus took ALL of the SINS of ALL upon Himself than Jesus went to hell in “paying the ransom”.

Seems pretty obvious that when Jesus said, “My God, My God, why have Thou forsaken Me?”, that it was at this very moment that the “prophesy” foretold in this psalm came true.

 

[Tom_Baum]

---

Why is Hell eternal?

Hell is eternal because the soul in Hell will never cease to hate God.

Why? Because he or she no longer has the privilege of free-will which he or she has had while on Earth.

If one dies while loving God, he or she will continue to love God in the afterlife.
If one dies while hating God, he or she will continue to hate God in the afterlife.

This same logic is applicable to Heaven. The souls in Heaven have already used their free-will on Earth to accept God. Their free-will is taken away as soon as they beheld the beatific vision of God, the ultimate award. Nothing but love is theirs now.

Free-will is the key to answering the eternities of both Heaven and Hell.

You wrote, “Free-will is the key to answering the eternities of both Heaven and Hell”

So you consider both heaven and hell to be eternal, as opposed to being everlasting.

Are you saying that time either ends or that God uncreates time?

Lots of people seem to speak of the “end of time” but as far as I know that is not spoken of in the bible, do you or anyone else know where the “end of time” is spoken of except for people pulling it out of thin air?