Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Amandil]

As far as, “And “humane”? You are clearly blind to the recidivism rates in this country. If prison is supposed to rehabilitate offenders but its not, its doing precisely the opposite.”

At least humans in their justice, “attempt” to rehabilitate whereas you have said that there is nothing “rehabilitative” about God’s Justice, just punishment, isn’t that how you put it?

Because for those who refuse to repent and rehabilitate themselves there is nothing left but punishment.
Tom Baum:

Could be that God’s Justice and God’s Mercy are so intertwined as to have a “built-in” rehabilitative quality to Them.

As I have repeatedly said, sin is it’s own punishment, so God’s justice is necessarily “built-in” the commission of sin. The cataclysms one suffers, spiritually and physically, are such punishments.

Example:
When a person drinks to the point of drunkenness (which is a sin) and suffers a hangover the next morning, that is the punishment.

If that person refuses the lesson and further drinks to the point where he becomes an alcoholic, loses his job, loses his family, and/or drinks and drives and gets arrested for a DUI, those are further sins in which the possibility of rehabilitation is “built-in” with the crime.

If he’s still attached to alcohol after all of that and refuses the lessons that God has been trying to teach him, drinks and drives and then kills someone, then he’s guilty of even worse sins.

And even after killing someone he refuses to give up alcohol, what then, Tom? How is it that God permits a man into heaven who loves alcohol more than God, himself, his family, his work, or his neighbor who he killed?

Rehabilitation exists, but only for those in this life not so hardened by their attachment to sin to see that their sin is sinful. IOW, those who WANT to repent, not those who won’t.
Tom Baum:

Jesus did tell us that there was “work” to be done, didn’t He?

Could be that our active participation in God’s Saving Plan is greater than some of us think possible.

What participation? Your argument is that “all are saved” regardless of our participation?
Tom Baum:

And you also wrote, "(And this is for all of the so-called universalists here.)

If “all are saved” automatically by Christ by His work of Redemption alone, what is meant by Paul’s words that there is something lacking in Christ’s sufferings?

And if there is something lacking in Christ’s sufferings, how is it that all are saved?"

Could be that “Christ’s sufferings” and “our work” add up to more than the sum of their parts, it is God’s Will that ALL are saved, seeing as it says, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

More like it seems that you’re trying to have it both ways. Either all are saved regardless of their own wills(and even against their wills as you apparently would have it), or that it is required that our wills must be put in conformity with God’s Will in order to be saved.

If it’s the former then God is not only not a God of love, but a tyrant, and a permissive and unjust tyrant, seating unrepentant murderers and rapists at His table next to their victims.

If it’s the latter, then all will not be saved, because there are people who will refuse to conform their wills to God, and that God respects their freedom and accepts their choice, thus they wind up in hell. They get what they wanted: eternal separation from God.
Tom Baum:

Could be that God all along knew what He was doing and that God’s Will will come to Fruition.

Absolutely. That’s why there is a hell.

 

[arte]

oh arte, i am so sorry for your confusion. i will pray for you, that God will impress on your heart the true teaching of his church.

In an earlier post, you said that I sound like a liberal atheist. My political views go from the left, through the centre to the right. I have never said that I do not believe in God, in fact the opposite is true, so I don’t why I sound like an atheist. You sound like a young person, ultraconservative and someone who watches the Fox News Channel.

I am not confused **but you most definitely are.
**

and that you will see the evil in the ways of the ‘loving’ atheists who kill baby’s and old and undesirable people, condone the distortion of marriage and contracept for their own evil desires.

You are making a TERRIBLE NON SEQUITUR (LOGIC) in saying that because they are atheists, they are evil and kill babies etc. The one definite conclusion that does follow from the premise of the term atheists is that they do not believe in God.

I assume by “killing babies” you mean abortion. I believe most atheists would support legal abortion because they do not want “back street” abortions. You cannot generalise that all atheists are pro abortion. There are likely many atheists who are as much anti abortion as us Christians.

I’ll discuss the Old Testament later but as we’re on the subject of abortion, you may like to read this:

Exodus 21: 22-25 Good News Translation (GNT)
22 “If some men are fighting and hurt a pregnant woman so that she loses her child, but she is not injured in any other way, the one who hurt her is to be fined whatever amount the woman’s husband demands, subject to the approval of the judges. 23 But if the woman herself is injured, the punishment shall be life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.

From the above, it looks like God wouldn’t care about abortions at all. In fact, the above is far worse than an abortion. The man responsible has actually “murdered” or at least committed “manslaughter” of a baby. His punishment is just a fine set by the baby’s father but the amount has to be cleared by judges. I thought I was reading from the Koran when I read this. This is iron/bronze age justice which is something I keep saying repeatedly about hell on this forum. I wonder what a secular justice system would do today – likely “very uncomfortable” jail time for the offender.

As for atheists “killing old and undesirable people”, I am lost for words. I assume you mean voluntary euthanasia. Again, there are likely many atheists who are as anti voluntary euthanasia as us Christians.

“Condoning the distortion of marriage”. I assume you mean gay marriage. I believe but I could be wrong that the vast majority of atheists do approve of gay marriage. Personally like you, I find gay marriage absolutely abhorrent.

“And, contracept for their own evil desires”. Atheists are not the only people who use contraception. I have absolutely no problem with married couples, including Catholic married couples, using contraception.

the God of the old testament, is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. it is we that change, and he treats us according to our understanding and actions.

I certainly hope that this isn’t the case because the God of the Old Testament doesn’t come across as the real God at all. Just one example for you:

Deuteronomy 3:1-7Good News Translation (GNT)
Israel Conquers King Og

1 “Next, we moved north toward the region of Bashan, and King Og came out with all his men to fight us near the town of Edrei. 2 But the Lord said to me, ‘Don’t be afraid of him. I am going to give him, his men, and all his territory to you. Do the same thing to him that you did to Sihon the Amorite king who ruled in Heshbon.’
3 “So the Lord also placed King Og and his people in our power, and we slaughtered them all. 4 At the same time we captured all his towns—there was not one that we did not take. In all we captured sixty towns—the whole region of Argob, where King Og of Bashan ruled. 5 All these towns were fortified with high walls, gates, and bars to lock the gates, and there were also many villages without walls. 6 We destroyed all the towns and put to death all the men, women, and children, just as we did in the towns that belonged to King Sihon of Heshbon. 7 We took the livestock and plundered the towns.

God obviously doesn’t mind the slaughter of men, women and children and pillage. In fact, he helps and condones it. This is not God.

For a few other examples, please read Deuteronomy 20:10-18, Numbers 31:7-18, Isaiah 13:15-18, Judges 21:10-24,

God orders the murder, rape and pillage of men, women and children so that the Israelites don’t end up worshiping false idols. This is a common theme in some of the books in the Old Testament. God condones murder, rape and pillage but warns the Israelites not to worship the pagan idols of the attractive young women that they take by force.

if it weren’t for his love and mercy, no one would go to heaven. he graciously sent his Son to die on a cross for us, but we must accept the offer, and live according to his teachings. we can never love Him the way he loves us, but we must love Him with all our hearts, souls and minds, and with all of our strength. God bless you.

I completely agree with you bisco. However, for about the “millionth time”, if God loves us so much, why does He put many of us in hell?

I thank you very much bisco for your prayers. We all need prayers. I will also pray for you so that you find the real God.

God bless you bisco.

 

[glendab]

Hello Arte.

…I certainly hope that this isn’t the case because the God of **the Old Testament doesn’t come across as the real God at all. ** Just one example for you: Dt. 3:1-7…
1 “Next, we moved north toward the region of Bashan, and King Og came out with all his men to fight us near the town of Edrei. 2 But the Lord said to me, ‘Don’t be afraid of him. I am going to give him, his men, and all his territory to you. Do the same thing to him that you did to Sihon the Amorite king who ruled in Heshbon.’
3 “So the Lord also placed King Og and his people in our power, and we slaughtered them all. 4 At the same time we captured all his towns—there was not one that we did not take. In all we captured sixty towns—the whole region of Argob, where King Og of Bashan ruled. 5 All these towns were fortified with high walls, gates, and bars to lock the gates, and there were also many villages without walls. 6 We destroyed all the towns and put to death all the men, women, and children, just as we did in the towns that belonged to King Sihon of Heshbon. 7 We took the livestock and plundered the towns.

God obviously doesn’t mind the slaughter of men, women and children and pillage. In fact, he helps and condones it. This is not God.

For a few other examples, please read Deuteronomy 20:10-18, Numbers 31:7-18, Isaiah 13:15-18, Judges 21:10-24,…God orders the murder, rape and pillage of men, women and children so that the Israelites don’t end up worshiping false idols… I completely agree with you bisco. However, for about the “millionth time”,** if God loves us so much, why does He put many of us in hell**?.

I shortened your post and bolded the things I’d like to make note of. The Author of all the Scriptures is God and it was His mighty and outstretched arm that lead the Israelites into battle and aided them in their conquests. Why is this so hard for you to accept? Lands needed conquering so they could live in the Promised Lands. This isn’t the only time God calls for the taking of life. It was a punishment for sin carried out till Jesus came and even His life was called for by God. Remember Holy Thursday when Jesus spent the night in prayer and said “take this cup from me, but not as I will but as you will…” The Father was calling for the shedding of His own Son’s Blood in atonement for sin, the sins of the whole world. The woman caught in adultery in the NT is about to get stoned to death. Stoning to death was an acceptable punishment even St. Joseph could’ve called for it when Mary, was found to be pregnant. He had three options, marry her, divorce her quietly or call for her life. Sin causes death and the topic of this thread is Hell and why folks go there. For thousands of years the Chosen People of God understood that there were punishments for sins, some unto death. It was part of their collective psyche. They didn’t question it and although it isn’t the perfect reason to avoid doing certain things, it did serve to keep them in line frequently. If you cannot accept a God Who calls for the taking of life then you are rejecting Jesus Christ for He is One with the Father and it is Him Who is acting all through the Old Testament. He even said whoever had seen Him, (Jesus) had seen the Father when questioned by Philip. You cannot have Him to your liking. God really did ask the Israelites to kill everyone sometimes, men, women and children. Sometimes He did the killing Himself. There is an account of Him sending wasps into the enemy camp that killed some and drove them off (Jos 24:12). Then there is the slaying of the first born in Egypt of man and beast alike. The history of our Salvation is a very bloody one. If you find this unacceptable then you find God unacceptable. Perhaps you can talk to Japanesekappa because she has a similar problem with acceptance. I’m sure she can help you.

And another thing, it has been my observation through the years that those who believe errors tend to have to re-define God from time to time because they feel differently about God then the rest of us and explain this by saying we don’t understand God, so they tell us who He is all over again, hoping that if this “definition” is accepted, it will clear up the misunderstanding, whatever that is. That being said, I’ll address your last question, “why does He put so many of us in Hell?” God doesn’t put anyone in Hell; they do that with their sins that is why sin must be avoided, because of its consequences. I think this is hard for you to understand BECAUSE you have a hard time accepting the fact that God ordered the slaughter of persons in the Old Testament as a punishment for sin that was carried out for thousands of years. Maybe you could read it over slowly and prayerfully and beg God to help you understand all this history and accept it. Acceptance is a key for you that will unlock the doors to a working faith. You’ve finally found the reason behind your lack of belief in Hell being eternal and there not being a “second chance” for those there to change their minds and repent and be saved by God’s sacrifice of His Son on the Cross. So, I guess all this arguing back and forth could actually help you Arte because you were honest enough to tell on yourself about what you have a problem with. In exposing your weakness God can get into the broken places and fix it. I pray you do use the key and let God be God. He is Who He says He is. It is all true. There is nothing in Him that isn’t. We see Him through a glass darkly and that isn’t His fault. It is ours and can be healed by Him.

Oh well, I’ve said too much again and as I’ve said before, I’m no expert on anything accept raspberry Danish and Starbuck’s from Kenya. Yummy.

Glenda

 

[Tom_Baum]

Because for those who refuse to repent and rehabilitate themselves there is nothing left but punishment.

Just because this seems to be impossible for man does not mean that it is impossible for God.

Jesus even said something to that effect when the Apostles asked Him who could be saved, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

As I have repeatedly said, sin is it’s own punishment, so God’s justice is necessarily “built-in” the commission of sin. The cataclysms one suffers, spiritually and physically, are such punishments.

Example:
When a person drinks to the point of drunkenness (which is a sin) and suffers a hangover the next morning, that is the punishment.

If that person refuses the lesson and further drinks to the point where he becomes an alcoholic, loses his job, loses his family, and/or drinks and drives and gets arrested for a DUI, those are further sins in which the possibility of rehabilitation is “built-in” with the crime.

If he’s still attached to alcohol after all of that and refuses the lessons that God has been trying to teach him, drinks and drives and then kills someone, then he’s guilty of even worse sins.

And even after killing someone he refuses to give up alcohol, what then, Tom? How is it that God permits a man into heaven who loves alcohol more than God, himself, his family, his work, or his neighbor who he killed?

Rehabilitation exists, but only for those in this life not so hardened by their attachment to sin to see that their sin is sinful. IOW, those who WANT to repent, not those who won’t.

God doesn’t need your permission to do something that you seem to think that God is incapable of doing.

What participation? Your argument is that “all are saved” regardless of our participation?

Sometimes God accomplishes quite a bit with the “participation” of a few.

It’s God’s Plan Amandil, not yours.

More like it seems that you’re trying to have it both ways. Either all are saved regardless of their own wills(and even against their wills as you apparently would have it), or that it is required that our wills must be put in conformity with God’s Will in order to be saved.

If it’s the former then God is not only not a God of love, but a tyrant, and a permissive and unjust tyrant, seating unrepentant murderers and rapists at His table next to their victims.

If it’s the latter, then all will not be saved, because there are people who will refuse to conform their wills to God, and that God respects their freedom and accepts their choice, thus they wind up in hell. They get what they wanted: eternal separation from God.

Just because you can NOT conceive of God being able to “convince without forcing”, doesn’t mean that God can not do it.

As far as, “but a tyrant, and a permissive and unjust tyrant, seating unrepentant murderers and rapists at His table next to their victims”.

Not only do you NOT know whether or not some or all will be ultimately “convinced without force” to “repent” but didn’t Jesus asked us to “FORGIVE OUR ENEMIES”?

You make it sound like a bunch of hate-filled, unforgiving people at God’s Table.

Absolutely. That’s why there is a hell.

One day you will “know” why there was a hell and that Jesus went to everyone’s hell by His taking on of everyone’s sin/s on the cross.

 

[shelby_sun]

How in the world do you actually know how many people are in hell? You simply don’t.

 

[Amandil]

Just because this seems to be impossible for man does not mean that it is impossible for God.

Jesus even said something to that effect when the Apostles asked Him who could be saved, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

God doesn’t need your permission to do something that you seem to think that God is incapable of doing.

Sometimes God accomplishes quite a bit with the “participation” of a few.

It’s God’s Plan Amandil, not yours.

Just because you can NOT conceive of God being able to “convince without forcing”, doesn’t mean that God can not do it.

As far as, “but a tyrant, and a permissive and unjust tyrant, seating unrepentant murderers and rapists at His table next to their victims”.

Not only do you NOT know whether or not some or all will be ultimately “convinced without force” to “repent” but didn’t Jesus asked us to “FORGIVE OUR ENEMIES”?

You make it sound like a bunch of hate-filled, unforgiving people at God’s Table.

One day you will “know” why there was a hell and that Jesus went to everyone’s hell by His taking on of everyone’s sin/s on the cross.

IOW, you have nothing but your typical empty and self-contradictory platitudes.

And you tripped over your own argument by affirming what I have consistently shown: what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings is our participation in them.

** Meaning that we cannot be saved unless we are united to Him and His sufferings by grace through faith, and that those who refuse to accept His mercy in this life will receive exactly what they wanted in the next: hell. This life is the time of testing, this life is our time in the wilderness, now is the time when we choose for God or against Him, not after. **

You go on believing in your own soft-headed, misguided benevolence and whatever god you have created in that image; I follow the actual Christ, the Christ who both affirmed that He was the Truth and that hell is in fact an eternal reality.

 

[arte]

How in the world do you actually know how many people are in hell? You simply don’t.

A very good question to ask and you’ve answered it correctly yourself. Our Church admits that it does not know how many people are in hell. No-one knows – only God. I used the word “many” for a reason. In several of my posts, I have used the words: “vast majority” but some people on this forum have “raised their hackles” at that. Their reason is because **“many“**is the word Jesus uses in Matthew 7:13-14:
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

My personal belief is that there are ZERO people in hell because I firmly believe that hell does not exist. My disbelief in hell is intensified every time I read replies from fellow Catholics on this forum who I can only describe as Conservative Catholics. I mean no disrespect to them by using this description. They believe all of the doctrine of our Church. They also believe that the Bible is inerrant.

I actually quoted from a part of your Post # 953 on Page 64 to support my disbelief in hell. I will quote it here again shelby son for a very special reason. No matter how much Church dogma, the Bible, philosophy, and theology you know and believe, a statement of common sense can seriously challenge all of that knowledge and belief. The quote is: **“Can you not see the huge contradiction between a God who loves all His children unconditionally and a Father who condemns His child to hell forever. As a mother I could never do that could you?”
**

 

[shelby_sun]

A very good question to ask and you’ve answered it correctly yourself. Our Church admits that it does not know how many people are in hell. No-one knows – only God. I used the word “many” for a reason. In several of my posts, I have used the words: “vast majority” but some people on this forum have “raised their hackles” at that. Their reason is because **“many“**is the word Jesus uses in Matthew 7:13-14:
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

My personal belief is that there are ZERO people in hell because I firmly believe that hell does not exist. My disbelief in hell is intensified every time I read replies from fellow Catholics on this forum who I can only describe as Conservative Catholics. I mean no disrespect to them by using this description. They believe all of the doctrine of our Church. They also believe that the Bible is inerrant.

I actually quoted from a part of your Post # 953 on Page 64 to support my disbelief in hell. I will quote it here again shelby son for a very special reason. No matter how much Church dogma, the Bible, philosophy, and theology you know and believe, a statement of common sense can seriously challenge all of that knowledge and belief. The quote is: **“Can you not see the huge contradiction between a God who loves all His children unconditionally and a Father who condemns His child to hell forever. As a mother I could never do that could you?”

Good. My mother always taught us that hell was here on Earth and everyone’s hell is different. Some may be living in a hell of addiction even though they have wealth. Some are living in a hell of poverty or abuse. Others have money but are ungrateful or greedy. Those who fair the best are the ones that have a strong faith, are grateful for what they have and focus on being the best person they can be while trying to help others. Most people face “hell” while they area alive at some point in their lives. Those that don’t should be the most grateful of all.
**

 

[Amandil]

A very good question to ask and you’ve answered it correctly yourself. Our Church admits that it does not know how many people are in hell. No-one knows – only God. I used the word “many” for a reason. In several of my posts, I have used the words: “vast majority” but some people on this forum have “raised their hackles” at that. Their reason is because **“many“**is the word Jesus uses in Matthew 7:13-14:
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.”

My personal belief is that there are ZERO people in hell because I firmly believe that hell does not exist. My disbelief in hell is intensified every time I read replies from fellow Catholics on this forum who I can only describe as Conservative Catholics. I mean no disrespect to them by using this description. They believe all of the doctrine of our Church. They also believe that the Bible is inerrant.

Yes, how utterly absurd it is to profess to believe in God and His Church on a weekly basis and actually allow that belief to dictate how you live and see the world.

How absurd to actually believe Christ and the Apostles who constituted the Church, and later the Church herself through various Councils, when they affirmed the inspiration and inerrancy of the Sacred Texts.

What fools; as if someone who lived 500, a 1,000, or even 2,000 years ago would have anything useful to say to us now or that it’s even relevant. Everyone knows that the truth is told by science alone and the discoveries made by such enlightened and idealistic minds.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Yes, Judaism believes in punishment and reward in the afterlife. But in Judaism:

Hell is temporary—not permanent.

Hell is a therapy—not an imprisonment.

Hell is a consequence—not a punishment.

Hell is a washing machine—not a furnace.

Yours truly,
Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar

I’m truly Catholic, but I’m praying that Judaism is correct in this one instance.

LOVE!

 

[Tom_Baum]

IOW, you have nothing but your typical empty and self-contradictory platitudes.

Do you think/believe that those things that seem contradictory in the bible are contradictory or just might be complementary?

You may consider what I write, my “typical empty and self-contradictory platitudes” but that is merely your opinion and not only are you entitled to it, you should have your own opinion but it should be based on what I write, not on what you read into what I write.

I do think/believe that God has a Plan that is something to be thankful for.

And you tripped over your own argument by affirming what I have consistently shown: what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings is our participation in them.

** Meaning that we cannot be saved unless we are united to Him and His sufferings by grace through faith, and that those who refuse to accept His mercy in this life will receive exactly what they wanted in the next: hell. This life is the time of testing, this life is our time in the wilderness, now is the time when we choose for God or against Him, not after. **.

I have heard God referred to as a “God of surprises” and I, personally, believe that there will be many “believers” who will be more surprised than many non-believers when they meet God.

You go on believing in your own soft-headed, misguided benevolence and whatever god you have created in that image; I follow the actual Christ, the Christ who both affirmed that He was the Truth and that hell is in fact an eternal reality.

I will go on believing in God the Father Whom I have met and God the Holy Spirit Whom I have met and will continue to attempt to do the “job” that God has chosen for me to do.

The only way that I know of that I have met Jesus is thru the Eucharist and I only know that because the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus.

As far as anything being an “eternal reality”, does “eternity” last?

Is heaven “eternal” or is heaven “everlasting”, do you know? Does anyone know?

As far as “everlasting”, will time last forever or will there be an “end of time”?

Many speak of an “end of time”, do you?

I know very little but I do know a little, there is much I believe and there is quite a bit that I hope for also.

I truly do believe that the words (believe and know) do not mean the same thing and I know, from reading and listening, that many disagree with me concerning the meaning of the words (believe and know).

 

[simpleas]

Yes, Judaism believes in punishment and reward in the afterlife. But in Judaism:

Hell is temporary—not permanent.

Hell is a therapy—not an imprisonment.

Hell is a consequence—not a punishment.

Hell is a washing machine—not a furnace.

Yours truly,
Rabbi Yisroel Cotlar

I’m truly Catholic, but I’m praying that Judaism is correct in this one instance.

LOVE!

 

[Amandil]

Do you think/believe that those things that seem contradictory in the bible are contradictory or just might be complementary?

You may consider what I write, my “typical empty and self-contradictory platitudes” but that is merely your opinion and not only are you entitled to it, you should have your own opinion but it should be based on what I write, not on what you read into what I write.

I do think/believe that God has a Plan that is something to be thankful for.

I have heard God referred to as a “God of surprises” and I, personally, believe that there will be many “believers” who will be more surprised than many non-believers when they meet God.

I will go on believing in God the Father Whom I have met and God the Holy Spirit Whom I have met and will continue to attempt to do the “job” that God has chosen for me to do.

The only way that I know of that I have met Jesus is thru the Eucharist and I only know that because the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus.

As far as anything being an “eternal reality”, does “eternity” last?

Is heaven “eternal” or is heaven “everlasting”, do you know? Does anyone know?

As far as “everlasting”, will time last forever or will there be an “end of time”?

Many speak of an “end of time”, do you?

I know very little but I do know a little, there is much I believe and there is quite a bit that I hope for also.

I truly do believe that the words (believe and know) do not mean the same thing and I know, from reading and listening, that many disagree with me concerning the meaning of the words (believe and know).

Spare me the false humility.

Truth, especially religious truth, is not decided by individual opinion polls. It doesn’t matter what “many people” claim to “believe and know” about the Deposit of the Faith handed down to us from the Apostles, all that matters is what the Church has said because it’s the Church which has the promise of the Holy Spirit, not any one individual.

It’s also rather apparent that you think that these questions you keep repeating are profound when in reality their just empty rhetoric. You really have nothing to contribute, and in fact you’re doing yourself and others more harm than good.

 

[shelby_sun]

IOW, you have nothing but your typical empty and self-contradictory platitudes.

And you tripped over your own argument by affirming what I have consistently shown: what is lacking in Christ’s sufferings is our participation in them.

** Meaning that we cannot be saved unless we are united to Him and His sufferings by grace through faith, and that those who refuse to accept His mercy in this life will receive exactly what they wanted in the next: hell. This life is the time of testing, this life is our time in the wilderness, now is the time when we choose for God or against Him, not after. **

You go on believing in your own soft-headed, misguided benevolence and whatever god you have created in that image; I follow the actual Christ, the Christ who both affirmed that He was the Truth and that hell is in fact an eternal reality.

In my opinion, you have been very rude. Can you not get your point across in a more civil way, a way God would be happy about?

 

[shelby_sun]

Spare me the false humility.

Truth, especially religious truth, is not decided by individual opinion polls. It doesn’t matter what “many people” claim to “believe and know” about the Deposit of the Faith handed down to us from the Apostles, all that matters is what the Church has said because it’s the Church which has the promise of the Holy Spirit, not any one individual.

It’s also rather apparent that you think that these questions you keep repeating are profound when in reality their just empty rhetoric. You really have nothing to contribute, and in fact you’re doing yourself and others more harm than good.

That is your opinion, one which I fully disagree with. I appreciate what Tom has to say, you on the other hand come across in a very ugly, non God like way, so You seem the one that has nothing worth listening to.

 

[shelby_sun]

Do you think/believe that those things that seem contradictory in the bible are contradictory or just might be complementary?

You may consider what I write, my “typical empty and self-contradictory platitudes” but that is merely your opinion and not only are you entitled to it, you should have your own opinion but it should be based on what I write, not on what you read into what I write.

I do think/believe that God has a Plan that is something to be thankful for.

I have heard God referred to as a “God of surprises” and I, personally, believe that there will be many “believers” who will be more surprised than many non-believers when they meet God.



I will go on believing in God the Father Whom I have met and God the Holy Spirit Whom I have met and will continue to attempt to do the “job” that God has chosen for me to do.

The only way that I know of that I have met Jesus is thru the Eucharist and I only know that because the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist Is Jesus.

As far as anything being an “eternal reality”, does “eternity” last?

Is heaven “eternal” or is heaven “everlasting”, do you know? Does anyone know?

As far as “everlasting”, will time last forever or will there be an “end of time”?

Many speak of an “end of time”, do you?

I know very little but I do know a little, there is much I believe and there is quite a bit that I hope for also.

I truly do believe that the words (believe and know) do not mean the same thing and I know, from reading and listening, that many disagree with me concerning the meaning of the words (believe and know).

 

[Tom_Baum]

Spare me the false humility.

Truth, especially religious truth, is not decided by individual opinion polls. It doesn’t matter what “many people” claim to “believe and know” about the Deposit of the Faith handed down to us from the Apostles, all that matters is what the Church has said because it’s the Church which has the promise of the Holy Spirit, not any one individual.

It’s also rather apparent that you think that these questions you keep repeating are profound when in reality their just empty rhetoric. You really have nothing to contribute, and in fact you’re doing yourself and others more harm than good.

What are you even speaking about concerning “false humility”?

I am merely speaking of some of the things that have happened to me and how I look at some things thru the eyes of these experiences.

And one of these “thru the eyes of these experiences” is the “literal fact” that God Is a Being of Love, in that Love is NOT merely an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

As far as, “Truth, especially religious truth, is not decided by individual opinion polls.”

It doesn’t matter what anyone believes, something is either true or not true and it is not “especially religious truth”, it is anything.

You do realize that the “Church” is a whole bunch of “individuals”, don’t you?

The Church is both the individual and all, not either/or.

The “Church” is NOT just the higher-ups.

When Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit, He meant all of us and the “Church” actually teaches that, doesn’t it?

As I have said in other places, I would rather be the worst follower of Jesus than the best follower of the best follower of Jesus, Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, not His Church, not His followers, not the bible, but to follow Jesus.

You think that you should follow Jesus the way that you see fit and you should and others should follow Jesus, if they so choose, the way that they feel they should.

You can take issue with my words if you wish but it is the gist of what I am trying to say that is important, not that I get an A in english grammar and/or composition.

 

[Amandil]

OK, you really need to learn how to use the quote function.

What are you even speaking about concerning “false humility”?

I mean exactly what I said. For someone who apparently doesn’t know much you certainly like to dictate all of these things which you apparently don’t know to others.

You also believe that it is your “job” to teach others what you apparently don’t know and what your teaching directly contradicts what the Church has taught for the last 2000 years.
Tom Baum:

I am merely speaking of some of the things that have happened to me and how I look at some things thru the eyes of these experiences.

You’re “experiences” can be nothing more than your own imagination.

And when your experiences tempt you to depart from the teaching of the Church, as it has obviously done, then it’s obvious that your “experience” is either false or your understanding is obviously terribly wrong.
Tom Baum:

And one of these “thru the eyes of these experiences” is the “literal fact” that God Is a Being of Love, in that Love is NOT merely an attribute of God but is God’s Very Being.

That you keep repeating this makes one wonder who exactly are you even speaking to? Who are you trying to convince? Obviously not me, because I’ve never even said anything contrary to this.

Although, what the definition of Love actually is, instead what you probably think it is, is, I’m sure, where your understanding is drastically flawed.

As far as, “Truth, especially religious truth, is not decided by individual opinion polls.”
Tom Baum:

You do realize that the “Church” is a whole bunch of “individuals”, don’t you?

The Church is both the individual and all, not either/or.

The Church is the Body of Christ. When what you believe in not in unity with the Body of Christ, for all intents and purposes you have separated yourself from that Body.
Tom Baum:

The “Church” is NOT just the higher-ups.

The “higher-ups” are the ones who possess the authority to preach and to teach. They are the Bishops, the Episcopos, the Overseers, they alone, based upon the Pope who sits in the chair of Peter, have the authority to bind and to loose.

You, as a layperson, are not a bishop; you do not have the right or the authority to bind or loose anything.

And just because you think that you received some vision or locution doesn’t mean that you have any such authority or direct pipeline to God that overrides the Magisterium’s authority in matters of Faith and Morals.
Tom Baum:

When Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit, He meant all of us and the “Church” actually teaches that, doesn’t it?

NO. He originally gave the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, who then passed it on to others by the laying on of hands. You have the Holy Spirit by the grace of God through the Church,. When you contradict the Church and revile the Body by teaching false beliefs you are not acting in the Spirit of Christ.
Tom Baum:

As I have said in other places, I would rather be the worst follower of Jesus than the best follower of the best follower of Jesus, Jesus’s invitation was to “Come follow Me”, not His Church, not His followers, not the bible, but to follow Jesus.

This tells me pretty much all that I need to know about the “spirit” that you follow, and it is NOT the Spirit of Christ.

So, apparently to you, the Church is NOT the Body of Christ but something else. Very telling.

So, apparently to you, the Bible is not the Word of God, but something else. Very telling.
Tom Baum:

You think that you should follow Jesus the way that you see fit and you should and others should follow Jesus, if they so choose, the way that they feel they should.

This is nothing short of an advocation of the sin of indifferentism if not outright idolatry. It’s an advocation for people to follow whatever false image of Jesus they have created in their own minds.

To be honest, from reading what you have written to this point, not really surprised.

 

[Amandil]

That is your opinion, one which I fully disagree with. I appreciate what Tom has to say, you on the other hand come across in a very ugly, non God like way, so You seem the one that has nothing worth listening to.

And Christ came across to the Pharisees and Sadducees, and those who were upset by what He said, as “very ugly, non God like” and “one that has nothing worth listening to.”

So you disagree? So what? Do you have any objective reasons as to how my so-called “opinion” is false?

Or is it that you find the truth disagreeable to your ears?

Do you actually have any objective criticism? If not, what you posted above are just empty words.

 

[shelby_sun]

And Christ came across to the Pharisees and Sadducees, and those who were upset by what He said, as “very ugly, non God like” and “one that has nothing worth listening to.”

So you disagree? So what? Do you have any objective reasons as to how my so-called “opinion” is false?

Or is it that you find the truth disagreeable to your ears?

Do you actually have any objective criticism? If not, what you posted above are just empty words.

There plenty of times in the Bible where Christ was loving and forgiving, but of course you need to focus on the judgement part, sad really. I know you don’t care, that is fine, but it certainly doesn’t sound like you have God in your heart. To me you sound like one of those intense Southern Baptist I grew up around.

I don’t know if your “opinion” is false or not and neither do you, it is simply what you believe to be the truth. Maybe it is, but we certainly don’t have all the truth God is going to share with us. If you think you know everything about the truth then you would be God.

It sounds like you feel the needs to know everything, maybe out of fear, control, to feel superior. Whatever it is, it does make you sound like you have God in your heart only in your head and words. You won’t draw many people in sounding as you do.