Is it possible that God can relent on the eternal punishment in Hell?

[Tom_Baum]

Hello Bisco.

Sounds like a game plan. Find out where the buttons are on the faithful types, push them long enough to have them say something “uncharitable,” complain loudly enough and get them banned. Then the only ones left to comment on everything will be the hhhhhhhhh’s and everyone can go home now because only the hhhhhhhhh’s will be speaking for the Catholic Church because they got so good at getting the faithful passionate types kicked out of a Catholic Apologetic Forum where the only goal should be to defend the Church.

But the gates of the nether world will never prevail, no matter how many of us get our butts whipped a few times at the Forum.

Glenda

You wrote, “But the gates of the nether world will never prevail, no matter how many of us get our butts whipped a few times at the Forum.”

The whole “mission” of Jesus’s Church is just that, that “the gates of the nether world will never prevail”.

Wouldn’t you say that the “netherworld” is “hell and death (physical and spiritual)”?

 

[Tom_Baum]

understood. but i think if you read the last 60+ pages, you would see how things devolve. a valued member should never be banned for reacting to the baiting of a troll.

Do you consider someone a “troll” because you think they are a “troll” or because they have an opinion or insight different from yours?

By the way, two of the things that I was taught in second grade were:

1. God Is Love.
2. We are all equal in God’s Eyes.

 

[bisco]

google ‘the end of all things’. usccb.org

 

[Tom_Baum]

It is possible that the culpability of a given individual may be mitigated.

Of course, seems that it was Jesus, Himself, Who said concerning who could be saved, “With man it is impossible but with God ALL things are possible”.

Who knows, maybe some of the “work” that Jesus spoke of when He said, “There is work to be done”, is for those that have accepted Jesus’s work as their “liaison” between them and the Father could act as the “liaison” between others and Jesus.

Seems to me that there is more to being a “Christian” than to just get yourself into heaven.

 

[Tom_Baum]

google ‘the end of all things’. usccb.org

Unless I did it wrong, I did it and got “Results 1 - 10 of 1680 results”, could you be a little more specific?

These, 1-10, seemed to be about the “end of” different things but none, as far as I could tell, was concerning the “end of time”.

 

[Vico]

Unless I did it wrong, I did it and got “Results 1 - 10 of 1680 results”, could you be a little more specific?

These, 1-10, seemed to be about the “end of” different things but none, as far as I could tell, was concerning the “end of time”.

The Catholic Encyclopedia topic Eschatology is a good source:

newadvent.com/cathen/05528b.htm

 

[glendab]

Hello Vico.

No. This is accusatory: “Your problem is that you are …”.

Forum Rule 1: “Messages posted to this board must be polite…”

I am hoping that a *valued *forum contributor will not get banned even for a short time.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with taking someone to task about their problems. Polite is “Excuse me sir, but you are being rude.” As Christians, we are called to live the works of Mercy in our daily lives, and two of them apply here, to admonish the sinner and instruct the ignorant. We are also called to live another work of Mercy: to forgive offenses. If I complained every time someone said something to me here at CAF that is rude or mean or whatever, I’d probably spend more time chatting with the Moderators then with the posters.

Glenda

 

[bisco]

well said.

 

[Vico]

Hello Vico.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with taking someone to task about their problems. Polite is “Excuse me sir, but you are being rude.” As Christians, we are called to live the works of Mercy in our daily lives, and two of them apply here, to admonish the sinner and instruct the ignorant. We are also called to live another work of Mercy: to forgive offenses. If I complained every time someone said something to me here at CAF that is rude or mean or whatever, I’d probably spend more time chatting with the Moderators then with the posters.

Glenda

So true. By the way, I’ve been banned before.

 

[bisco]

ah, now it makes sense. i hope it wasn’t for defending church teaching. there are plenty of accusatory letters written by the fathers of the church against heretics. and they didn’t pull any punches!

 

[Vico]

ah, now it makes sense. i hope it wasn’t for defending church teaching. there are plenty of accusatory letters written by the fathers of the church against heretics. and they didn’t pull any punches!

It involved the topic of schism, back in 2011.

 

[bisco]

touchy subjects i guess. it doesn’t make sense to me though. someone asks a question, and no matter what they get for church backed teaching, after more than 60 pages, they still insist they are right and the church has it wrong. then, someone defending the church gets banned?

 

[Vico]

CAF Quick Questions has this one: Is it possible for a person with a mortal sin still on his soul to die and go to heaven?

The answer given is:No. “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him forever by our own free choice” (CCC 1033). But it is important to understand what constitutes a mortal sin and the ways mortal sin can be forgiven.

catholic.com/quickquestions/is-it-possible-for-a-person-with-a-mortal-sin-still-on-his-soul-to-die-and-go-to-heav

Catechism**1033 **We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: “He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.” Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
But the particular judgement in the Catholic Encyclopedia reveals more: The Catholic doctrine of the particular judgment is this: that immediately after death the eternal destiny of each separated soul is decided by the just judgment of God. Although there has been no formal definition on this point, the dogma is clearly implied in the Union Decree of Eugene IV (1439), which declares that souls leaving their bodies in a state of grace, but in need of purification are cleansed in Purgatory, whereas souls that are perfectly pure are at once admitted to the beatific vision of the Godhead (ipsum Deum unum et trinum) and those who depart in actual mortal sin, or merely with original sin, are at once consigned to eternal punishment, the quality of which corresponds to their sin (paenis tamen disparibus). The doctrine is also in the profession of faith of Michael Palaeologus in 1274, in the Bull “Benedictus Deus” of Benedict XII, in 1336, and in the professions of faith of Gregory XIII and Benedict XIV.

Michael Palaeologus (Byzantine Emperor 1259–1282) 1274 – profession of faith
Pope Benedict XII (Pope 1334 to 1342) 1336 – Bull “Benedictus Deus”
Pope Eugene IV (Pope 1431 to 1447) 1439 – Union Decree (implied dogma) *
Pope Gregory XIII (Pope 1572 to 1585) – profession of faith
Pope Benedict XIV (Pope 1740 to 1758) – professions of faith

• Council of Florence (1431–1449) The Union Decree (Laetentur Caeli) signed July 6, 1439

 

[arte]

Hell is commensurate with the guilt of sin. Sin is an offense against God’s eternal majesty, sin is pride and idolatry, placing created things over and above God and the love and obedience due Him.

“The wages of sin is death.” Thus the guilt of sin is necessarily eternal-eternal separation from God.

Your problem is that you are blinded by your emotions to see just how truly ugly, abhorrant, and reprehensable sin really is.

Hell is not commensurate with any guilt of sin. Surely, that is evident by the “level” of sin required to enter hell which is one mortal sin. I keep saying that if this is God’s divine justice then it falls well below the standard of justice practiced by mankind in the developed World. I could also include justice systems practiced in many countries in the undeveloped World. It is incredible that the intelligent life forms that God created can be more humane than their Creator.

Let me explain who God is. God is an omnipotent (unlimited power) being who created our universe and “God knows” how many other universes. He created trillions of suns and trillions of planets. He created intelligent life on this planet and “God knows” how many other planets. If we sin and take a step(s) away from Him don’t you think that the above being with unlimited power can’t take a step(s) closer to us?

“The wages of sin is death”. You are obviously quoting from Rom 6:23. Death is just a part of the natural laws of the universe that we live in. Everything and everyone in this universe dies. I absolutely love reading St Paul’s letters and tracing his journeys preaching the Good News of Jesus. However, St Paul would have known nothing about our universe or how it came into being after God ignited the big bang.

I am not blinded by my emotions. My emotions concerning hell are a direct result of my love for my fellow man. Without showing disrespect to you, your religious dogma filled mind blinds you from having love for your fellow man. ** I am sure that God would rather us have the former rather than the latter.**

 

[bisco]

arte, your love of fellow man will lead them to hell instead of repentance. you sound like the many liberal atheist voices we hear all around the world today. is there any sin you would condemn? ‘blessed is the womb that bore you’. ‘blessed rather, are those who hear my words and keep them’.

 

[arte]

arte, i don’t see why you are trying to compare hell to sharia law. one has nothing to do with the other. jesus tells us the truth, you don’t have to accept it, if you don’t want to. plenty of atheists think that they are more loving and compassionate than God. to their detriment.

I wasn’t comparing Sharia Law to hell. I was comparing Sharia Law to God’s Divine Justice. Islamic Sharia Law must be the most heinous form of justice in the World but even Islamic Sharia Law is pretty tame compared to God’s Divine Justice.

It ails me to say this but atheists are more loving and compassionate than the God of the Old Testament. Atheists also show more love and compassion for their fellow man than some people on this forum who believe in hell and show no compassion whatsoever for the humans that could end up there in accordance with their religious beliefs. In fact, it is to our detriment and not atheists that we preach a God of love and then follow it up with the same God who tortures souls for eternity because they have one unconfessed mortal sin. In Western Europe, people are leaving Christianity in droves. My friend’s nephew is a Catholic Priest in Holland. He now covers what were 13 Catholic parishes.

Jesus does tell the truth and as I have said many times on this forum, I constantly pray to Jesus about His teachings on hell. Jesus’ MAIN TEACHING throughout His ministry was LOVE. I find it extremely hard to reconcile this teaching of LOVE with Jesus’ teaching on hell. Some Christians firmly believe that there are translation errors in the word for hell in the Bible and especially when this word is used by Jesus. Also, some Christians reject hell because there are pagan links from many cultures including the Jewish culture that describes a similar place. Jesus was a Jew and immersed in Jewish culture. All I can say on the above is that I am researching both avenues

understood. but i think if you read the last 60+ pages, you would see how things devolve. a valued member should never be banned for reacting to the baiting of a troll.

As far as me and several others on this forum are concerned, we have reacted to the baiting of trolls who put religious dogma before LOVE of their fellow man. One troll has no problem describing God’s love as CONDITIONAL. Another troll believes that we should all be sent to hell because we are born as sinners.

 

[bisco]

oh arte, i am so sorry for your confusion. i will pray for you, that God will impress on your heart the true teaching of his church, and that you will see the evil in the ways of the ‘loving’ atheists who kill baby’s and old and undesirable people, condone the distortion of marriage and contracept for their own evil desires. the God of the old testament, is the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow. it is we that change, and he treats us according to our understanding and actions. if it weren’t for his love and mercy, no one would go to heaven. he graciously sent his Son to die on a cross for us, but we must accept the offer, and live according to his teachings. we can never love Him the way he loves us, but we must love Him with all our hearts, souls and minds, and with all of our strength. God bless you.

 

[arte]

Also, some Christians reject hell because there are pagan links from many cultures including the Jewish culture that describes a similar place. Jesus was a Jew and immersed in Jewish culture. All I can say on the above is that I am researching both avenues

I will ask the Administrator to remove this part of my Post# 991 on Page 67. I took it from Christian and secular sources concerning pagan beliefs crossing over into religions. One such belief was hell and I have been researching this aspect. Regardless, I do not want myself or anyone else who may have read my post associating it with Jesus.

 

[Amandil]

Hell is not commensurate with any guilt of sin.

One has to wonder what sin you are currently running away from that you are trying to rationalize it.

arte:

Surely, that is evident by the “level” of sin required to enter hell which is one mortal sin. I keep saying that if this is God’s divine justice then it falls well below the standard of justice practiced by mankind in the developed World. I could also include justice systems practiced in many countries in the undeveloped World. It is incredible that the intelligent life forms that God created can be more humane than their Creator.

Human justice systems bssed upon positive law are necessarily less than God’s. And you cannot get more from less.

And “humane”? You are clearly blind to the recidivism rates in this country. If prison is supposed to rehabilitate offenders but its not, its doing precisely the opposite.

arte:

Let me explain who God is.

Oh I’m tingling with excitement! You’re going to preach again.

arte:

God is an omnipotent (unlimited power) being who created our universe and “God knows” how many other universes. He created trillions of suns and trillions of planets. He created intelligent life on this planet and “God knows” how many other planets. If we sin and take a step(s) away from Him don’t you think that the above being with unlimited power can’t take a step(s) closer to us?

“The wages of sin is death”. You are obviously quoting from Rom 6:23. Death is just a part of the natural laws of the universe that we live in. Everything and everyone in this universe dies. I absolutely love reading St Paul’s letters and tracing his journeys preaching the Good News of Jesus. However, St Paul would have known nothing about our universe or how it came into being after God ignited the big bang.

Two things:

1. Now you’re saying that what Paul has written and what the Church has definitively taught is inspired by God is now wrong? That it is not the truth that God inspired Paul to write?

2)“Death is just a part of the natural laws of the universe that we live in.”
** No it is not:

“Because God did not make death, nor does He rejoice in the destruction of the living. For Hecfashioned all things that they might have being…”(Wisdom 1:13-14)

&

“For God formed man to be imperishable; the image of His own nature He made him. But by yhe envy of the devil, death entered the world, and they who are in his possession experience it.” (Wisdom 2:23-24)**

arte:

I am not blinded by my emotions. My emotions concerning hell are a direct result of my love for my fellow man. Without showing disrespect to you, your religious dogma filled mind blinds you from having love for your fellow man. ** I am sure that God would rather us have the former rather than the latter.**

Your “love” turns loving sinners into loving their sins as well, pretending as if they’re sins aren’t as evil as they really are, and thus making mock of what Jesus suffered in His Passion and death.

And spare me. I would love nothing more that all would be saved, but neither am I so soft-headed as to think that it will be.

Another passage from St Paul:

**"…and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of His Body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24).

(And this is for all of the so-called universalists here.)

If “all are saved” automatically by Christ by His work of Redemption alone, what is meant by Paul’s words that there is something lacking in Christ’s sufferings?

And if there is something lacking in Christ’s sufferings, how is it that all are saved?**

 

[Tom_Baum]

And “humane”? You are clearly blind to the recidivism rates in this country. If prison is supposed to rehabilitate offenders but its not, its doing precisely the opposite.

And spare me. I would love nothing more that all would be saved, but neither am I so soft-headed as to think that it will be.

Another passage from St Paul:

**"…and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of His Body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24).

(And this is for all of the so-called universalists here.)

If “all are saved” automatically by Christ by His work of Redemption alone, what is meant by Paul’s words that there is something lacking in Christ’s sufferings?

And if there is something lacking in Christ’s sufferings, how is it that all are saved?**

As far as, “And “humane”? You are clearly blind to the recidivism rates in this country. If prison is supposed to rehabilitate offenders but its not, its doing precisely the opposite.”

At least humans in their justice, “attempt” to rehabilitate whereas you have said that there is nothing “rehabilitative” about God’s Justice, just punishment, isn’t that how you put it?

Could be that God’s Justice and God’s Mercy are so intertwined as to have a “built-in” rehabilitative quality to Them.

By the way, is the “recidivism rate” 100%?

If not than it may be doing something, even if it is not perfect but than again, what is “perfect” on/in this world.

You wrote, “**”…and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of His Body, the Church." (Colossians 1:24)."

Jesus did tell us that there was “work” to be done, didn’t He?

Could be that our active participation in God’s Saving Plan is greater than some of us think possible.

And you also wrote, "(And this is for all of the so-called universalists here.)

If “all are saved” automatically by Christ by His work of Redemption alone, what is meant by Paul’s words that there is something lacking in Christ’s sufferings?

And if there is something lacking in Christ’s sufferings, how is it that all are saved?"

Could be that “Christ’s sufferings” and “our work” add up to more than the sum of their parts, it is God’s Will that ALL are saved, seeing as it says, “This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.”

Could be that God all along knew what He was doing and that God’s Will will come to Fruition.**