Is it possible that instead of seeing God the Father and Jesus that Joseph Smith saw demons or hallucinated?

[Lapey]

I’m seeing ‘uncharitable’ written all over this thread.

If I was LDS I’d be upset.

Please, lets try to be charitable to our wayward brothers and sisters.

I am sorry if you tink I am uncharitable, however I do not agree with your perspective. This is called debate and discussion.

 

[Lapey]

Holly3278,

I suppose that you realize that the very same questions you have asked about Joseph Smith could be asked by any reader of the Bible about Stephen, who saw a vision of both the Father and the Son.

Saul (Paul) could have used the very same logic to ask the very same questions, before he had the vision he had on the road to Damascus that changed his life and his view of the whole idea of “visions”. (See Acts 7 and 8.)

Peace to you and all.

Parker D, I am sorry. I read your post again and to be honest I’m not sure what I was thinking you wrote. I see your comparison now, sorry!!!

 

[rainman10]

This answers Holly’s question. You conclude that the angels were really from Satan. If these angels were from Satan, how could they appear and proclaim that Christ is the Lord, the Only Begotten of the Father?

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God – 1 John 4:2–3

But how do we truly know these “angels” proclaimed that Christ is Lord, and the Only Begotten of the Father? Because Joseph Smith said so?

 

[Lapey]

Where in the desert did Satan proclaim that Christ was the Son?

How does that address the scripture in John?

That was not my point, as far as I know there is nothing in Scripture that reads satan proclaimed Jesus as Son of God, the Christ. The point of my post was that satan will use every tool at his disposal as illustrated by his use of the Word against the Word Himself, Jesus.

So if satan can use it against Jesus, you know he will use it against us. I believe he does daily.

It doesn’t adress the quote you applied here, it wasn’t my point to make.

 

[Lapey]

I quoted Parker D, not you Holly. Sorry if I confused things. If it in fact reads in his version the things he said, he has a different version than I. The DR is a very good translation.

Sorry folks, my quick reading of Parker’s post is evident here.

 

[rainman10]

Holly3278,

I suppose that you realize that the very same questions you have asked about Joseph Smith could be asked by any reader of the Bible about Stephen, who saw a vision of both the Father and the Son.

Saul (Paul) could have used the very same logic to ask the very same questions, before he had the vision he had on the road to Damascus that changed his life and his view of the whole idea of “visions”. (See Acts 7 and 8.)

Peace to you and all.

This is true, Parker. But as far as I know, Stephen and Saul had only one version of their visions. With all due respect, how many versions of his first vision did Joseph Smith have?

 

[tortdog]

This is true, Parker. But as far as I know, Stephen and Saul had only one version of their visions. With all due respect, how many versions of his first vision did Joseph Smith have?

You moved the goal posts, but as to your point only one recorded and accepted as scripture, just like Paul. Or are you suggesting that Paul only gave one version word for word perfect any time he related it? To prove that, we would need to have more witnesses of Paul’s teachings than we currently have (which woudl be wonderful to have!).

 

[pablope]

I think that you would have to go with lying. Beyond the first vision, you have an angel carrying physical objects. That doesn’t sound like a dream. You also have John the Baptist and Peter, James and John all physically touching Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Joint-drug induced dreams? You would have to claim the two of them are liars.

but beyond that, you have witness testimony of many others who saw appearances of angels and heard the voice of the Lord, many times with all hearing at the same time. That’s pretty hard to explain away in an age without technology.

many men have claimed to see angels, but how many invited their friends to come see the angels as well and actually did (some of these people having no real prior relationship with Joseph Smith)?

It would have to be a lie to claim it is false, in my view. What one should be able to easily find is the lie falling apart because someone decided it was not worth upholding a lie his whole life.

Let me cite one difference I have observed and differentiates between JS.

There are those in the CC who have seen angels, the Virgin Mary and Jesus and the Trinity (Sister Lucia of Fatima). Yet, after seeing their visions, they led lives of piety, devotion, humility and love, and sacrifice and holiness. That is why they are saints, some of them have uncorrupted bodies to this day, and some received the wounds of Christ on their bodies.

Yet, they did not go out to establish their own religions, and submitted to the authority of the Pope or their bishop.

Now, contrast these actions with that of Joseph Smith.

 

[JHow]

…What one should be able to easily find is the lie falling apart because someone decided it was not worth upholding a lie his whole life.

It is not hard to come up with examples of people who upheld lies all their lives . That someone’s story never changed is not proof of its veracity either way, just that they were consistent.

 

[pablope]

This answers Holly’s question. You conclude that the angels were really from Satan. If these angels were from Satan, how could they appear and proclaim that Christ is the Lord, the Only Begotten of the Father?

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God – 1 John 4:2–3

Satan could give you 99 truths out of 100 to squeeze in the one lie he wants you to believe.

 

[tortdog]

It is not hard to come up with examples of people who upheld lies all their lives . That someone’s story never changed is not proof of its veracity either way, just that they were consistent.

I think it’s harder than you suggest. Give me an example where you have 12 men who claimed to have seen angels and heard the voice of the Lord, who never went back on their testimonies and lived their entire lives in that lie.

Of course that doesn’t “prove” anything. You might just find people who are REALLY stubborn liars. But I don’t think it’s as common as you suggest. I cannot think of an example. Not one.

 

[tortdog]

Satan could give you 99 truths out of 100 to squeeze in the one lie he wants you to believe.

That doesn’t answer the question in how Satan could testify that Jesus is the Christ when John suggests that Satan cannot do that.

That’s why (in my view) Joseph Smith has to either be a liar or a true prophet. One of the two. He could not have been deceived by Satan based on the test laid out in the Bible.

 

[SnakeMauler]

Hey everyone. The Mormons commonly state that Joseph Smith had a vision in the woods near his home in Palmyra, New York in 1820 of God the Father and Jesus, God the Son. Well, how is this even possible since God the Father has no body. Of course, Mormons claim that He does have a body but He most definitely does not. Only Jesus has a body out of the Trinity. So, did Joseph Smith actually have a vision which was false, see demons, or did he hallucinate? What do most Catholics believe on this?

That said, Mormons, you are welcome to come in here and discuss this issue with us but I would appreciate it if this did not turn into a huge debate. Feel free to state your objections to what I stated but please do not turn this into a huge debate thread.

Finally, if Joseph Smith did hallucinate, is it possible that maybe he had a mental illness like schizophrenia? Are there other signs that we know of that Joseph Smith was mentally ill? Or was he simply an outright fraud and that his supposed “vision” was nothing more than a made up story?

He probably just made it up, no pic no proof. If I saw God the Father and Jesus I’d take a picture with them.

 

[tortdog]

He probably just made it up, no pic no proof. If I saw God the Father and Jesus I’d take a picture with them.

We have one!!

http://lds.org/images/Manuals/tchg-pix.nfo:o:1be.jpg

 

[pablope]

That doesn’t answer the question in how Satan could testify that Jesus is the Christ when John suggests that Satan cannot do that.

That’s why (in my view) Joseph Smith has to either be a liar or a true prophet. One of the two. He could not have been deceived by Satan based on the test laid out in the Bible.

Could you cite the verse in John? I am not familiar with it. I forgot where this is stated, maybe someone can cite it…but I will paraphrase…“Satan knows Jesus is, yet he does not believe in him.”

 

[tortdog]

Could you cite the verse in John? I am not familiar with it. I forgot where this is stated, maybe someone can cite it…but I will paraphrase…“Satan knows Jesus is, yet he does not believe in him.”

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God – 1 John 4:2–3

I’m not saying that Satan doesn’t know the true nature of Christ. I think he does. But John seems to say that Satan will not testify of Jesus Christ to others.

 

[pablope]

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God – 1 John 4:2–3

I think you are taking the verse out of context and extending the meaning. Simply, those that cannot confess about Jesus is not of God.

One can say they believe in Jesus and in their heart, do not believe it. Look at Matt 7: 21…where it states not all who says Lord Lord will enter heaven.

Satan can fool you and I, mask himself as an angel, and say he believes in Jesus to fool you and I.

As I stated in a previous post, there are those in the CC who have seen angels, the Virgin, Jesus and the Trinity (Sister Lucia)…but look at the lives they led after their visions and contrast it what what JS did after his vision.

The most important contrast is they did not go out to establish their own religions and remained obedient and humble to the authority of the CC and its Magisterium. Some of them have bodies that have remained incorrupted, some received Christ’s wounds on their bodies. What greater honor do you think is there than to receive Christ’s wounds on their bodies?

 

[tortdog]

Well, you have to liken the word “spirit” to “person” to get to your interpretation of John. John wrote:

Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God

It is a fact that Joseph Smith and others claimed these “spirits” testified of Jesus Christ. I think that gets to the question being raised in this discussion.

As I stated in a previous post, there are those in the CC who have seen angels, the Virgin, Jesus and the Trinity (Sister Lucia)…but look at the lives they led after their visions and contrast it what what JS did after his vision.

We could change the subject to whether the fruits of Joseph Smith and others are in keeping with the gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s a separate question from this discussion, though. Also note that Joseph Smith asked God WHICH church to join, not whether he should start a church. The instruction to organize a church came years later, as a result of a direct commandment of God (according to Joseph Smith).

 

[GaryTaylor]

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God – 1 John 4:2–3

Could also relate to the denial of Christ as God, being a statement that only those not of God would make?

 

[tortdog]

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God – 1 John 4:2–3

Could also relate to the denial of Christ as God, being a statement that only those not of God would make?

Well, that would make sense. Why would a spirit of God deny that Christ is God?