Is it possible that true reverence for The Body of Christ is a thing of the past..

[Verbum_Caro]

There is also an issue about how long the consecrated Body and Blood of Christ stays the Body and Blood of Christ. Can’t be forever.

Yes. There is the danger of mold, etc. Although, I don’t know what the “lifespan” of the accidents of a consecrated host are. Someone on the forum might know what the protocol is for changing consecrated hosts in perpetual adoration.

Also how long does it stay the Body and Blood after you consume it. But I’ll leave that up to the theologians to determine.

That brings up another problem with molecule-size accidents – I don’t think even digestion would completely disintegrate every last molecule, would it?

VC

 

[otjm]

There is also an issue about how long the consecrated Body and Blood of Christ stays the Body and Blood of Christ. Can’t be forever. Also how long does it stay the Body and Blood after you consume it. But I’ll leave that up to the theologians to determine.

I have heard 15 minutes, but I couldn’t source that for love nor money. Supposedly the digestion process is fast enough that it could not be identified after that.

 

[ProVobis]

That brings up another problem with molecule-size accidents – I don’t think even digestion would completely disintegrate every last molecule, would it?
VC

In the digestion process, there would be different molecules involved (molecules change) yet the number and type of atoms (lots of carbon and hydrogen atoms) would remain the same. I’ll let the supercomputer perform the chemical equations on that. But that brings us to our previous determination or question of when the Body and Blood of Christ no longer is the Body and Blood of Christ.

Here’s a question for you: what happens to the fiber part of the accidents which are, by definition, undigested?

 

[Verbum_Caro]

PV,

I think this is why it would be important to recall that substance and accident are metaphysical concepts that involve physical realities but that aren’t determined by physical science.

By the way, I don’t know if you tracked down the whole passage from Aquinas yet (I gave a portion in Latin above) but here is one translation(III, 77, 4):

when the body and the blood of Christ succeed in this sacrament to the substance of the bread and wine, if there be such change on the part of the accidents as would not have sufficed for the corruption of the bread and wine, then the body and blood of Christ do not cease to be under this sacrament on account of such change, whether the change be on the part of the quality, as for instance, when the color or the savor of the bread or wine is slightly modified; or on the part of the quantity, as when the bread or the wine is divided into such parts as to keep in them the nature of bread or of wine. But if the change be so great that the substance of the bread or wine would have been corrupted, then Christ’s body and blood do not remain under this sacrament; and this either on the part of the qualities, as when the color, savor, and other qualities of the bread and wine are so altered as to be incompatible with the nature of bread or of wine; or else on the part of the quantity, as, for instance, if the bread be reduced to fine particles, or the wine divided into such tiny drops that the species of bread or wine no longer remain.

 

[phrederik]

But that doesn’t mean he hasn’t tried or the bishops aren’t disobedient or deceptive.

do you reallly think disobedient and / or deceptive bishops would remain in office, that the Pope would allow this kind of behavior?

And if you’re into anti-conspiracy theories…I don’t even know why you brought it up.

i didn’t bring it up, your source, tldm.org, did, for example; “Permission” was granted only by deceiving the Pope that two-thirds of the conference approved by getting retired and dying bishops to sign off on the petition.

 

[ProVobis]

PV,

I think this is why it would be important to recall that substance and accident are metaphysical concepts that involve physical realities but that aren’t determined by physical science.

By the way, I don’t know if you tracked down the whole passage from Aquinas yet (I gave a portion in Latin above) but here is one translation(III, 77, 4):

Thanks, VC. I don’t have a problem with that translation. Makes sense to me in light of what we have discussed.

 

[phrederik]

Wouldn’t you object if I scratched your skin and make those tiny fragments part of my fingernails or just kept scratching you not caring that I am removing layers of your skin in the process for no one’s benefit?

you’re describing a purposeful behavior, an intent to remove skin. if particles of the Host fall unintentionally how is that purposeful?

 

[phrederik]

i’ve read and re-read the recent posts containing “accident”,or “accidents”, and i don’t understand how the words are being used. my understanding doesn’t seem to fit the context, it may be obvious, but please help me.

thank you.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

phrederik,

Could you be more specific?

Thanks,
VC

 

[otjm]

i’ve read and re-read the recent posts containing “accident”,or “accidents”, and i don’t understand how the words are being used. my understanding doesn’t seem to fit the context, it may be obvious, but please help me.

thank you.

It is used in the philosophical sense or meaning, Substance and Accidents. Accidents are the things which are observable by the senses.

 

[phrederik]

It is used in the philosophical sense or meaning, Substance and Accidents. Accidents are the things which are observable by the senses.

so philosophically, the things i can experience are accidents, the things i can’t, which are beyond sensation, are substance, right?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

There is also an issue about how long the consecrated Body and Blood of Christ stays the Body and Blood of Christ. Can’t be forever. Also how long does it stay the Body and Blood after you consume it. But I’ll leave that up to the theologians to determine.

The important thing to remember is that unlike ordinary food, which becomes assimilated into our own bodies, the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ assimilates US into HIS body! Therefore, the question of ‘how long’ is (in Truth) much longer than 15 minutes.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

It is used in the philosophical sense or meaning, Substance and Accidents. Accidents are the things which are observable by the senses.

otjm,

Respectfully, I don’t think that is the most accurate definition. “Observable by the senses” is a description of a common(but not exclusive) relationship between accidents and our human senses, but not a necessary one. Our senses are* ordered* towards sensing accidents (and not substances) but an accident is still an accident even if non-sensible.

so philosophically, the things i can experience are accidents, the things i can’t, which are beyond sensation, are substance, right?

phrederik,

Yes, that is more accurate because what you experience by your senses are always accidents, and substance cannot be directly sensed. But, again, this isn’t a definition but a description of one aspect. Some accidents are non-sensible. Grace, for instance, is an accident of the soul, but is non-sensible.

A better definition, in my opinion, is that substance is a being that by its essence exists in itself, and not in another being. Accident is a being that by its essence exists (or inheres in) another being – in a substance.

Does that help at all?

VC

 

[ProVobis]

Some accidents are non-sensible.

Spiritual communion, which was emphasized by the Council of Trent? Substance without the accidents? We don’t seem to talk about spritual communion anymore.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Spiritual communion, which was emphasized by the Council of Trent? Substance without the accidents? We don’t seem to talk about spritual communion anymore.

Hi PV,

Actually, I’m not really referring to spiritual communion. I’m not sure we would talk about receiving the “substance” of Christ in a spiritual communion in the same way we talk about receiving the substance of Christ in the Eucharist in Holy Communion.

I was referring, rather, to a more precise definition of substance and accident generally. (Also, I didn’t mention a substance without any accidents).

By the way, do you have something on Spiritual Communion that you think might be interesting/appropriate for this thread?

VC

 

[ProVobis]

By the way, do you have something on Spiritual Communion that you think might be interesting/appropriate for this thread?

VC

Let me do some research and gather up and present some material. Thanks for asking as I think it’s important, especially since not everyone gets the same chance to receive on a daily basis.

 

[otjm]

otjm,

Respectfully, I don’t think that is the most accurate definition. “Observable by the senses” is a description of a common(but not exclusive) relationship between accidents and our human senses, but not a necessary one. Our senses are* ordered* towards sensing accidents (and not substances) but an accident is still an accident even if non-sensible.

You are right; I was a bit 'short handed" in the explanation. I try to keep philosophical definitons short to those who have not taken it, but your explanation is mroe accurate. Thanks.

 

[Malleus_01]

Quote : not that i’ve watched everyone receive every time, but i’ve never seen Particles of the Host drop to the floor, have you?

Mal: I could tell everyone in this forum a story that would scandalize everyone in this forum If I named names - suffice to say the answer is yes. Because not only was it dropped but the person who dropped it then stepped on it purposely. Now that wasnt an accident and not what we are talking about. But it happened and it scandalized me. And that was the second to the last time I ever went to that Church - the only time since was for a funeral. I havent seen everyone recieve everytime either - but I saw what I saw. And my Father in Law saw the same thing I saw the same time I saw it. So you can tell me any story you want to tell me. I already know what I saw. Its the reason I no longer went to the Church I grew up in. The Church I was Baptised in. The Church of my First Holy Communion. Where I served Mass as an Altar boy. Where I was Confirmed. Yes I went to Mass after the changes to the same Church. Yes I saw people recieve CITH. And although I never did personally - I wasnt scandalized until that happened. After that happened - I cannot describe how outraged I was having been taught about the real presence from a Child. There are issues going on in the Church. And lack of respect for the Real Presence is happening whether you like it or not.

i am a EMHC and the Host seems very solid. i understand the risk you’re concerned about, that Jesus will drop to the floor, but i don’t know what to do to prevent that, short of never taking the Host out of the tabernacle.

Mal: It doesnt happen at TLM. The Hosts are in the Ciborium in the Tabernacle. the Only time they leave the Ciborium are when the Consecrated Hands of the Priest remove them with the Paten under the hands of the Priest and the communicants chin as he administers Holy Communion. Should they drop or any particle - the paten catches them. The Priest doesnt touch anything with the fingers he uses to distribute Holy Communion and clean the paten until they are purified by Wine and Water into the chalice which he then consumes. That would be how.

I trust if this happens it is accidental and God will know this. however if it is done with disregard or purpose then it is a grave sin, between God and that person. if i see a Particle fall to the floor i will pick It up and consume It.

Mal: Its not a matter of if - its a matter of when and the Body and Blood of Our Lord is being desecrated whether you see it or not. I know - I held the paten for years and i have seen particles and entire hosts fall onto the paten. And anyone who has served will tell you the same thing. It happens. To say it doesnt happen is simply not true.

 

[phrederik]

Because not only was it dropped but the person who dropped it then stepped on it purposely

what did you do after this happened?

 

[phrederik]

otjm, ProVobis, Verbum Caro;

thank you for answering my question regarding “accident” and “substance” i’ll be studying this further.