Is it possible to become filthy rich without losing your soul?

[stinkcat_14]

The above post caught my eye when I read it but I didn’t want to get too “personal” in the discussion. However I would like to raise a point or two in general that relates to the bolded sections.

If one is rich enough that they, “will never spend what (they) have” it seems to indicate that they have more than is necessary for a comfortable and secure life. In that case, they should endevour to either spend the money charitably, or make such charitable provision for after they pass on. If one holds onto the excess money, thus hoarding it, then one may guilty of the sin of greed and “not doing to the least of them”.
The Question for such a person, and I am not trying to be personal here, is if you do not feel guilty for being rich - for having more than you’ll ever need - why not? Why doesn’t this person feel there is more they can and should do?

Peace
James

To get more personal, I personally intend to reduce my money earning potential in the future, and do volunteer work instead. In my opinion, it makes no sense to earn money I will never spend. Now of course, I could make the money and give it away, the problem I see with that approach is that I have worked at places that have benefited from large donations and I see a huge disconnect from the intent of the donors and what actually happens. I have taught at an ivy league school where the main concern of the faculty is to reduce how much they teach.

Now of course, I could give more to charity, and I intend to do so, but right now it is hard because my wife is very much against giving any money away. She comes from a neglectful and abusive background and she sees the money as security and she doesn’t want to let go of a penny. It is a real battle. Actually, one of the only reasons why I continue to work as much as I do is that it gets me out of the house, which somewhat reduces the tension. It doesn’t help that my wife is bitter and angry at God, so we are really on different wavelengths when it comes to what is the right thing to do with our money.

So in short, there is more that I can and should do. I do feel guilty for that.

 

[JRKH]

This seems to be as good a place as any to point out that it is a false assumption that the rich have lots of money.

Most rich people have lots of property. For example, a friend of mine has a small factory. Now that property is valued at more than he can spend – but he doesn’t have that in cash.

So the idea that he should “spend the money charitably” raises a strange image – should he sell a lathe and put a machinist out of work? Or should he rather manage his business so as to keep his employees and even expand it to add more?

Believe me, I understand this quite well. However, in the post I quoted from the statement was:

After all, I consider myself to be one of the rich people in the US. I don’t envy someone with $100 million, because I will never spend what I have

So I took that at face value meaning that includes disposable wealth and not tangable assets etc.

Having followed some of the discussion here I can only say that we’re trying to oversimplify on the one hand and overcomplicate on the other.

Money is not the issue, whether it be $1.00 or $1,000,000. Money is an inanimate object. No better or worse than the person who controls it.

This issue the excess wealth is aquired. If it is done so in a moral way then there is no problem. If sin is committed in aquiring it, then it becomes “Ill got gains”. The basic sin of lust has caused other sins to be committed in pursuit of wealth.

If the excess wealth is aquired morally but is hoarded and used only for the temporal and corporeal pleasure of the owner, then the sin greed and avaice are in play.

In the final analysis there can be no clear simple answer to the original question other than to say - “It Depends…”

Peace
James

 

[stinkcat_14]

Having followed some of the discussion here I can only say that we’re trying to oversimplify on the one hand and overcomplicate on the other.

I think this is true to an extent. The reason I took the $100 million as an arbitrary figure is because to make a couple of million, that is not difficult to amass over a lifetime if you do two things:

1. Start early
2. Invest prudently.

However, if you set a goal to make $100 million, you are not going to get there by dollar cost averaging. Can you make it by working 9-5, probably not. So the question is, can you get there without being so driven that you are tempted to cheat, tempted to make money your god, etc?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Believe me, I understand this quite well. However, in the post I quoted from the statement was:

So I took that at face value meaning that includes disposable wealth and not tangable assets etc.

Having followed some of the discussion here I can only say that we’re trying to oversimplify on the one hand and overcomplicate on the other.

Money is not the issue, whether it be $1.00 or $1,000,000. Money is an inanimate object. No better or worse than the person who controls it.

This issue the excess wealth is aquired. If it is done so in a moral way then there is no problem. If sin is committed in aquiring it, then it becomes “Ill got gains”. The basic sin of lust has caused other sins to be committed in pursuit of wealth.

If the excess wealth is aquired morally but is hoarded and used only for the temporal and corporeal pleasure of the owner, then the sin greed and avaice are in play.

In the final analysis there can be no clear simple answer to the original question other than to say - “It Depends…”

Peace
James

I am reminded of a political brouhaha over granting tax breaks to attrtact business in North Little Rock. It was exemplified by a billboard that said, “Cabelas is welcome in North Little Rock if they pay their share.”

I wish Cabelas had put up another billboard next to it, saying, “Our share to North Little Rock is $0. We’re setting up our store in Cabot.”

What the rich do is provide the** jobs** the rest of us need. And frankly, I think if a man creates 10 jobs, he has a right not to be sneered at by a man who has created no jobs at all.

As for the rich not paying income tax – go down to any inner city and ask the corner dope dealers how much income tax they pay.

 

[JRKH]

To get more personal, I personally intend to reduce my money earning potential in the future, and do volunteer work instead. In my opinion, it makes no sense to earn money I will never spend. Now of course, I could make the money and give it away, the problem I see with that approach is that I have worked at places that have benefited from large donations and I see a huge disconnect from the intent of the donors and what actually happens. I have taught at an ivy league school where the main concern of the faculty is to reduce how much they teach.

Now of course, I could give more to charity, and I intend to do so, but right now it is hard because my wife is very much against giving any money away. She comes from a neglectful and abusive background and she sees the money as security and she doesn’t want to let go of a penny. It is a real battle. Actually, one of the only reasons why I continue to work as much as I do is that it gets me out of the house, which somewhat reduces the tension. It doesn’t help that my wife is bitter and angry at God, so we are really on different wavelengths when it comes to what is the right thing to do with our money.

So in short, there is more that I can and should do. I do feel guilty for that.

Thank you for your post. I really did not mean my post to be directed at you. I only used your statements as a starting point for an analogous comment. My sympathies regarding your personal issues. You and your wife are in my prayers.

As regards the “disconnect” between the intention of the giver and the action of the recipient, this makes no difference in so far as “Grace” is concerned. If I give money to needy person and they buy use it to buy bad things instead of good, it does not reflect on my charity or the grace that flows from the giving.
Of course when discussing larger donations, one might try to link some control to the donation itself. I’ve heard of such things.

In the scenerio you have posted, the best bet is probably making some sort of provisions in your will.

May God Bless you and give you strength and courage.

Peace
James

 

[stinkcat_14]

As for the rich not paying income tax – go down to any inner city and ask the corner dope dealers how much income tax they pay.

Once again, morality is not relative. If the rich man owes income tax, then he is obligated to pay it. After all, he can move to Bermuda if he wishes. So it is not like he is being robbed.

 

[JRKH]

I think this is true to an extent. The reason I took the $100 million as an arbitrary figure is because to make a couple of million, that is not difficult to amass over a lifetime if you do two things:

1. Start early
2. Invest prudently.

However, if you set a goal to make $100 million, you are not going to get there by dollar cost averaging. Can you make it by working 9-5, probably not. So the question is, can you get there without being so driven that you are tempted to cheat, tempted to make money your god, etc?

If the making of the money is THE GOAL, then I have to think it is highly unlikely one could do it without losing ones soul.
now having said that, I suspect that very few people ever made that much money “intentionally”. By that I mean that people who are that smart and/or that driven are usually not driven by monetary issues. They are “A” type people who are workaholics. They might look at the money as a measure, or as a tool for the next step in their plan, but the money istelf is not the object.
Bill Gates is an instance. No one can deny that he is “Filthy Rich” but it has more to do with being a man with an idea and incredible drive. Even is MS were only one 10th as successful as it is, Bill Gates would still have worked long hours and been totally focused on product and business issues rather than money totals.

Long story short, I suspect that many people who make huge fortunes, almost do so by accident. They “Play the Game” or they, 'Have a Billion Dollar idea", or they “Have the knack”. How pure or sinful they are depends entirely on them and their personality.

Peace
James

 

[vern_humphrey]

Once again, morality is not relative. If the rich man owes income tax, then he is obligated to pay it. After all, he can move to Bermuda if he wishes. So it is not like he is being robbed.

Once again, tax cheating is not limited to the rich. As I pointed out, all the millionaires I know use a tax accountant who is scrouplous in filing their returns.

It is prejudice that levels the charge of “tax cheat” at one class (the rich) and ignores such things as drug dealers not paying taxes in order to pretend tax cheating is exclusively confined to the despised “rich” class.

 

[buffalo]

I am glad that we agree that cheating on your taxes can be a mortal sin. Now who is more likely to cheat on their taxes, the poor or the wealthy?

If you are poor you don’t pay income taxes. So the poor basically cannot cheat. Anyone else can.

The rich are under higher tax scrutiny making it harder for outright fraud. They also are more likely to hire professionals to do their taxes.

 

[estesbob]

I am trying as hard as I can to find out

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you are poor you don’t pay income taxes. So the poor basically cannot cheat. Anyone else can.

Actually, the poor can cheat – and many do:

Persons engaging in illegal activities (drug dealing, prostitution, etc.) rarely pay taxes.

People approaching the EITC limit often quit their jobs for the rest of the year, to avoid taxes and draw EITC.

And, of course, there are the people with the education and intelligence to make money, and who choose not to – thus not contributing their share.

The rich are under higher tax scrutiny making it harder for outright fraud. They also are more likely to hire professionals to do their taxes.

Yep – as I said, every millionaire I know uses a tax accountant who is scrouplous at following the law.

 

[buffalo]

Actually, the poor can cheat – and many do:

Persons engaging in illegal activities (drug dealing, prostitution, etc.) rarely pay taxes.

People approaching the EITC limit often quit their jobs for the rest of the year, to avoid taxes and draw EITC.

And, of course, there are the people with the education and intelligence to make money, and who choose not to – thus not contributing their share.

Yep – as I said, every millionaire I know uses a tax accountant who is scrouplous at following the law.

I forgot about illegal revenues. However, maybe then they do not qualify as poor.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I forgot about illegal revenues. However, maybe then they do not qualify as poor.

I know several people who draw welfare, EITC, WIC and so on. Somehow they manage to have new trucks, motorcycles and other manifestations of wealth.

 

[estesbob]

If you are poor you don’t pay income taxes. So the poor basically cannot cheat. Anyone else can.

.

The most common kind of tax fraud is poor people falsyfying information to ge a bigger Earned Income Credit

,. This fraud is so prevalent that it is the ONLY tax credit where the tax preparer must complete a form showng they showed due dilignece in verifying the information or be liable for a subtantial negigence penalty.

 

[buffalo]

The most common kind of tax fraud is poor people falsyfying information to ge a bigger Earned Income Credit

,. This fraud is so prevalent that it is the ONLY tax credit where the tax preparer must complete a form showng they showed due dilignece in verifying the information or be liable for a subtantial negigence penalty.

Guys - I stand corrected.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I believe you’ve broken the code!

Parroting a talking point (envy) is not breaking any code. It’s parroting a talking point. Nothing more.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

This sounds like you expect God to Judge on a curve.

Rich or Poor, immoral is immoral. It’s what is in the heart, not the pocketbook

The greatest commandment is Love. All of the Law and Prophets are based on Love. We are to Love each other as Christ Loved us.
If one can get “filthy rich” while doing this, then they will go to heaven, but since this Love will probably cause them to give it away as quickly as they get it, it’s unlikely they will ever be “Filthy Rich” so…

Peace
James

You must have missed the memo. Prosperity is a sign of God’s favor and a sure sign of election. Poverty is a sign of God’s disfavor and a sure sign of reprobation.

 

[LCMS_No_More]

Which is the old “sin is sin” fallacy. The Church, however, sees degrees of sinfulness.

WHAT!? This is dancing dangerously close to heresy. A mortal sin of ANY degree, if unconfessed before death, lands one in HELL. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

 

[JRKH]

You must have missed the memo. Prosperity is a sign of God’s favor and a sure sign of election. Poverty is a sign of God’s disfavor and a sure sign of reprobation.

All kidding aside - Bringing up the term prosperity is interesting.
One can be “prosperous” without being “Rich” because the riches that prosperity has brought them is given away in charity.

Peace
James

 

[mapleoak]

WHAT!? This is dancing dangerously close to heresy. A mortal sin of ANY degree, if unconfessed before death, lands one in HELL. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

There are sins which condemn one to hell (all mortal sin). There are degrees of mortal sin. Some sins deprive one not only of eternal life, but also can bring scandal. Others can profoundly affect society and lead others to ruin as well. One cannot look at all sins as being equal. Example, purposely eating meat on a Friday during Lent versus unjustly bringing about the demise of a nation through mass murder. Both will lead to hell unrepentant. Which would you say is worse?