Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?

[Peter_Plato]

Glenda, this is a crucial part of Catholic teaching that you are missing. It is explained very clearly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church’s discussion of the resurrection of the body. The Catechism quotes Jesus Christ on this point. From John 5:29, “Do not be astonished at this for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and come out-those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.” The Catechism also clearly explains the hope for a new heaven and a new earth in its discussion of the Creed where it says “I believe in life everlasting.” (In fact it discusses and explains every part of the Creed.) There are many scriptures that point to this and one of the beautiful things about the Catechism are the footnotes to the scriptures. The first thought that came to mind when you said the earth is passing away is when Jesus, in his sermon on the mount, said “the meek will inherit the earth” from Mathew 5:5. God Bless. Here’s a link to the Catechism…
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

More specifically…

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2Q.HTM

 

[glendab]

Hello Miguel.

Glenda, this is a crucial part of Catholic teaching that you are missing. It is explained very clearly in the Catechism of the Catholic Church’s discussion of the resurrection of the body. The Catechism quotes Jesus Christ on this point. From John 5:29, “Do not be astonished at this for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice, and come out-those who have done good to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation.” The Catechism also clearly explains the hope for a new heaven and a new earth in its discussion of the Creed where it says “I believe in life everlasting.” (In fact it discusses and explains every part of the Creed.) There are many scriptures that point to this and one of the beautiful things about the Catechism are the footnotes to the scriptures. The first thought that came to mind when you said the earth is passing away is when Jesus, in his sermon on the mount, said “the meek will inherit the earth” from Mathew 5:5. God Bless. Here’s a link to the Catechism…
vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Glad you brought this up. I am not mistaken. The creed says: “I believe in life everlasting.” Not Eden everlasting or Earth ever lasting, but life everlasting. That’s what I said and that’s what I meant. Everyone knows that the teaching you are pointing to does not mean a earth that will be re-created from nothing and will be without end. This is part of the Rapture Trap misinterpretation of Scriptures that is foundational in several different Protestant denominations. Please do not attempt to put their spin on our Church’s teachings.

Glenda

Glenda

 

[JapaneseKappa]

So, to boil it down to an edible size for most tastes, it is too big a thing for most minds to get. But the difference between you and I JapaneseKappa is that I accept that fact and you simply cannot. This is your own self-imposed exclusion from the Mysteries of Faith. To see with the eyes of Faith is to see all that is needed by the soul and makes one content in all matters. It makes for peace within oneself. It can only be attained in this way. All else is simply the absence of conflict.
P.S. This peace of soul is the reason behind why I say it is irrational not to believe in God.

Of course, the same can be said for any religious principles. The “eyes of Faith” can make anything look reasonable and intellectually satisfying. The Hindi guru sees his religion as entirely personally satisfying with his eyes of faith, while the radical Imam sees his violent proclamations as an avenue to personal contentment and greater peace.

Combine this with the reasoning of the others in this thread, that God can kill or order us to kill without contradicting his “goodness.” How then can we distinguish between the faith of those people who say “Gott mit uns,” “يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ مَا لَكُمْ إِذَا قِيلَ لَكُمُ انفِرُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ اثَّاقَلْتُمْ إِلَى الأَرْضِ أَرَضِيتُم بِالْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا مِنَ الآخِرَةِ فَمَا مَتَاعُ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا فِي الآخِرَةِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلٌ,” and “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.” without invoking simple personal preference? I have no doubt that if I were to look at any of those faiths “with the eye of faith,” I would be able to create some internal justifications for them and convince myself that I was fulfilled while others were deliberately excluding themselves from the mysteries I had found.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Hello Miguel.

Glad you brought this up. I am not mistaken. The creed says: “I believe in life everlasting.” Not Eden everlasting or Earth ever lasting, but life everlasting. That’s what I said and that’s what I meant. Everyone knows that the teaching you are pointing to does not mean a earth that will be re-created from nothing and will be without end. This is part of the Rapture Trap misinterpretation of Scriptures that is foundational in several different Protestant denominations. Please do not attempt to put their spin on our Church’s teachings.

Glenda

Glenda

On the contrary…

1046 For the cosmos, Revelation affirms the profound common destiny of the material world and man:

For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God . . . in hope because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay… We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

1047 The visible universe, then, is itself destined to be transformed, “so that the world itself, restored to its original state, facing no further obstacles, should be at the service of the just,” sharing their glorification in the risen Jesus Christ.

1048 “We know neither the moment of the consummation of the earth and of man, nor the way in which the universe will be transformed. the form of this world, distorted by sin, is passing away, and we are taught that God is preparing a new dwelling and a new earth in which righteousness dwells, in which happiness will fill and surpass all the desires of peace arising in the hearts of men.”

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2Q.HTM

Aside from the “from nothing” part, the Cathechism does insist on a transformation of the material universe.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Of course, the same can be said for any religious principles. …
… I have no doubt that if I were to look at any of those faiths “with the eye of faith,” I would be able to create some internal justifications for them and convince myself that I was fulfilled while others were deliberately excluding themselves from the mysteries I had found.

Of course, the same could be said for non-religious principles.

You would, likewise, “be able to create some internal justifications” for materialism or atheism and convince yourself that you “were fulfilled while others were deliberately excluding themselves from the mysteries” you had found.

Why the “special pleading” for religious principles when your objection applies universally?

Don’t be so exclusionary

 

[JapaneseKappa]

Of course, the same could be said for non-religious principles.

You would, likewise, “be able to create some internal justifications” for materialism or atheism and convince yourself that you “were fulfilled while others were deliberately excluding themselves from the mysteries” you had found.

Why the “special pleading” for religious principles when your objection applies universally?

Don’t be so exclusionary

Glendab was already asserting that someone who takes a secular worldview was unable to see with an eye of faith. We could argue about the about what sort of “eye of faith” a secular sort of worldview requires, but it would not be relevant to Glendab’s position.

 

[miguel]

Hello Miguel.

Glad you brought this up. I am not mistaken. The creed says: “I believe in life everlasting.” Not Eden everlasting or Earth ever lasting, but life everlasting. That’s what I said and that’s what I meant. Everyone knows that the teaching you are pointing to does not mean a earth that will be re-created from nothing and will be without end. This is part of the Rapture Trap misinterpretation of Scriptures that is foundational in several different Protestant denominations. Please do not attempt to put their spin on our Church’s teachings.

Glenda

Glenda

God Bless Glenda. You are mistaken on this point. Please read the part of the Catechism that explains this. The Rapture misunderstanding involves 2 second comings of Christ. There will only be one second coming. From John’s book of Revelation Chapter 21: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.” As a surfer I’m not sure I like the part about the sea being no more. But I’m sure whatever God is planning for us will be wonderful. You mentioned earth passing away. Yes the one we’re currently in will pass away. But there will be a new heaven and a new earth. “And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying ‘See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them; they will be his people and God himself will be with them, he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more, mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have past away.’ And the one who was seated on the throne said ‘See I am making all things new.’” The prophet Isaiah also gives us a glimpse of what this will be like from 25:6-9 “On this mountain for all peoples, Yahweh Sabaoth is preparing a banquet of rich food, a banquet of fine wines, of succulent food, of well-strained wines. On this mountain, he has destroyed the veil which used to veil all peoples, the pall enveloping all nations; he has destroyed death for ever. Lord Yahweh has wiped away the tears from every cheek, he has taken his people’s shame away everywhere on earth, for Yahweh has spoken. And on that day, it will be said, 'Look, this is our God, in him we put our hope that he should save us, this is Yahweh, we put our hope in him. Let us exult and rejoice since he has saved us.” It sounds like God is planning a big party if we hang tough. And Jesus said at the last supper "Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said “Take this and divide it amongst yourselves for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” John 22:17-18. It sounds to me like he’ll be drinking it with us.

 

[Aloysium]

:twocents: Being a unity of spirit and matter, we are not truly ourselves if not as participants in the physical universe. There is to be a New Jerusalem - no return to Eden. Time moves forward.

 

[Peter_Plato]

Glendab was already asserting that someone who takes a secular worldview was unable to see with an eye of faith. We could argue about the about what sort of “eye of faith” a secular sort of worldview requires, but it would not be relevant to Glendab’s position.

Ah, yes. I see your point.

I suspect she means something quite different from what you have in mind, however.

 

[miguel]

…God obviously intended for the earth to be like Eden (e.g. deathless,) because that’s how he originally made it. He is also capable of creating humans without original sin (e.g. Mary.)

Exactly right. From Genesis 2:15:17 “The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man ‘You may freely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you will die.’” He also created Adam and Eve without sin. Death came into the world because of human disobedience. Human disobedience is not God’s fault. God gave us free will. He wants us to use our freedom for good. The abuse of human freedom is the problem.

…It therefore seems perfectly reasonable for me to ask why God didn’t just erase an entire human generation’s original sin and send them back to Eden. It is certainly possible that there may be some extenuating circumstance that prevents God from doing so, but its yet another thing to have faith in. In other words, in the absence of any actual evidence, we not only have to take God’s existence on faith, but on top of that we have to have faith that a certain set of properties describe God…

I think you ask a reasonable question also. God obviously has a plan. He is sovereign. His ways are way above our ways. We are his creatures. He gave us our existence. And it could have been a wonderful existence from the beginning. But we chose to sin. Sin is an offense against God’s perfect justice. Jesus Christ, God himself, came into the world to bear the penalty for our crimes. That’s how good God is. And he promised to make all things new. This will happen in God’s good time. He patiently waits for our conversion. He is slow to anger. This life is a test. He wants to know that we will use our freedom to do his good will. Without him we can do nothing. We are fallen. We need his help. And he helps us.

As for the last part of your statement…Catholics don’t have to take God’s existence on faith. St Thomas gave 5 irrefutable philosophical proofs for God’s existence 800 years ago. He showed how we can deduce that fact outside of divine revelation. This is part of the content of human knowledge. God Bless.

 

[Peter_Plato]

‘See I am making all things new.’

The most profoundly beautiful words ever spoken.

 

[madera]

The most profoundly beautiful words ever spoken.

My God, dont you know that all the human knowledge amongst all of your knowledge will never prove the existance of God???
proof is in having a corrective relationship that purifies our souls and seeing changes taking place is all one needs to know God’s existence.

All this child like figuring out only shows that you do not know how God’s secret.

The secret is in psalms, “be still and know God”,

 

[Peter_Plato]

My God, dont you know that all the human knowledge amongst all of your knowledge will never prove the existance of God???

No I don’t “know” that.

For one, that is contrary to Catholic teaching.

For two, how could you possibly “know” THAT without knowing what it would take to prove the existence of God AND based on THAT knowledge prove that it is NOT possible to prove God exists?

In other words, you could only prove the impossibility of proving the existence of God by proving the negative.

Basically, what you are claiming is that the following statement could provably NEVER be known by human beings to be true:

If x, y and z are true, then God must exist.

How could you possibly ever know or prove THAT for certain, without knowing a priori that x, y and z can never be true, especially when you have no idea what x, y and z could conceivably be to begin with?

 

[Peter_Plato]

My God, dont you know that all the human knowledge amongst all of your knowledge will never prove the existance of God???

To be clear…

35 Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PA.HTM

 

[Tomdstone]

St Thomas gave 5 irrefutable philosophical proofs for God’s existence 800 years ago.

I thought that Maimonides had given these proofs before St. Thomas. In any case, I am not sure that these proofs qualify as irrefutable.

 

[Tomdstone]

But we chose to sin.

I don’t think that everyone has chosen to sin.

 

[glendab]

Hello Miguel.

God Bless Glenda. You are mistaken on this point. Please read the part of the Catechism that explains this. The Rapture misunderstanding involves 2 second comings of Christ. There will only be one second coming. From John’s book of Revelation Chapter 21: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.” As a surfer I’m not sure I like the part about the sea being no more. But I’m sure whatever God is planning for us will be wonderful. You mentioned earth passing away. Yes the one we’re currently in will pass away. But there will be a new heaven and a new earth. “And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying ‘See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them; they will be his people and God himself will be with them, he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more, mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have past away.’ And the one who was seated on the throne said ‘See I am making all things new.’” The prophet Isaiah also gives us a glimpse of what this will be like from 25:6-9 “On this mountain for all peoples, Yahweh Sabaoth is preparing a banquet of rich food, a banquet of fine wines, of succulent food, of well-strained wines. On this mountain, he has destroyed the veil which used to veil all peoples, the pall enveloping all nations; he has destroyed death for ever. Lord Yahweh has wiped away the tears from every cheek, he has taken his people’s shame away everywhere on earth, for Yahweh has spoken. And on that day, it will be said, 'Look, this is our God, in him we put our hope that he should save us, this is Yahweh, we put our hope in him. Let us exult and rejoice since he has saved us.” It sounds like God is planning a big party if we hang tough. And Jesus said at the last supper "Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said “Take this and divide it amongst yourselves for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” John 22:17-18. It sounds to me like he’ll be drinking it with us.

How to de-rail a thread in five easy lessons:

LESSON # 1 - Bring up the Rapture in any form and stand back and watch.

Glenda

 

[madera]

So it means nothing to "be still and know God?
Sure I can see God has created the beautiful world,
But the inner minds of men that don’t desire too have a personal relationship with God to overcome their resentments and their fallen natures do not have a personal relationship in order to know God, but know he exists from looking at what they can see with their eyes,
there is no faith in that…
our faculties are tainted unless we hsve an inner relationship with God.

I assure you the priests experience God in silence, without using their human faculties, but having a personal rellationship in the silence of being still in order to know that God exists.

 

[Peter_Plato]

So it means nothing to "be still and know God?
Sure I can see God has created the beautiful world,
But the inner minds of men that don’t desire too have a personal relationship with God to overcome their resentments and their fallen natures do not have a personal relationship in order to know God, but know he exists from looking at what they can see with their eyes,
there is no faith in that…
our faculties are tainted unless we hsve an inner relationship with God.

I assure you the priests experience God in silence, without using their human faculties, but having a personal rellationship in the silence of being still in order to know that God exists.

Hello?

What you claimed was…

My God, dont you know that all the human knowledge amongst all of your knowledge will never prove the existance of God???

To which I answered from the Catechism …

35 **Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. **But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

If you read carefully, (colour coded to make things easier) it says human reason can bring a person to God and reason can prove the existence of God, (contrary to your claim) but “for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him” grace and God revealing himself to man are necessary.

So coming to know God requires “be still and know God,” but knowing “about” God or proving that he exists does not. Human reason is capable of bringing us to know some things about him - that he exists, that he created the universe from nothing, etc. - but not to “real intimacy” with God.

You keep conflating the two kinds of “knowing” as if they were the same.

 

[Amandil]

I don’t think that everyone has chosen to sin.

With the exception of Jesus and Mary; yes, everyone.

“…(A)ll have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”

No one has ever loved perfectly their entire lives. No one has ever chosen innocence, ever.

Yet everyone acts as if they had innocence and yet lost it. We all act as we all had Eden and lost it, like beggar kings in rags searching for our lost thrones.