Is it Rational to Believe God Exists?

[Tomdstone]

…
[4]God is omnipresent (and outside of space/time)
[5]We can experience God while here on earth

.

I am interested in [4]. If Jesus is God, then how can God be outside of space/time? And if God is omnipresent, does that mean that God is in every human being, so that every human is divine in some sense? How is omnipresence defined, for example, would it mean that as part of His omnipresence, God is in Hell and is present in the fallen angels?
For [5], if God is outside of spacetime, how is it possible for a human who is in spacetime to experience something outside of spacetime?

 

[inocente]

I can’t tell if you’re reading too much into my posts, or if you are just rather passionate about the physical location of heaven. Here’s what I believe:

[1]Heaven exists
[2]Heaven is outside of this world (space/time)
[3]We cannot travel to Heaven in a spaceship
[4]God is omnipresent (and outside of space/time)
[5]We can experience God while here on earth

It seems you would disagree with numbers 3 through 5. In other words, to experience God, we must travel to Heaven, where he lives in a city of pure gold and sits on a throne in a mansion.

I’m not at all passionate about the physical location of heaven, but am passionate that we should not read scripture as if it was a physics handbook. My objections actually start at [2], as that imposes a conception which I doubt the bible writers or most Christians would share or possibly even comprehend.

The problem is that if heaven is outside space and time, our loved ones who have passed on are completely separated from us, and so is God. There’s no way to have a conversation with them, no way for them to see us. You may say no, that’s not what’s intended, but there’s no other way to interpret “outside space/time”.

 

[stewstew03]

…but am passionate that we should not read scripture as if it was a physics handbook

But that seems to be precisely what you are doing – reading scripture as if it were a textbook.

The problem is that if heaven is outside space and time, our loved ones who have passed on are completely separated from us, and so is God…

Have you seen God face to face? Have you seen the soul of a loved one?

.

 

[stewstew03]

I am interested in [4]. If Jesus is God, then how can God be outside of space/time? And if God is omnipresent, does that mean that God is in every human being, so that every human is divine in some sense? How is omnipresence defined, for example, would it mean that as part of His omnipresence, God is in Hell and is present in the fallen angels?
For [5], if God is outside of spacetime, how is it possible for a human who is in spacetime to experience something outside of spacetime?

We cannot “see” God unless he reveals himself to us. Put simply, we are able to see God in the person of Christ because he chose to reveal himself in the person of Christ.

We have an imperfect relationship with God in this life until we experience a perfect relationship with Him in the next (see “beatific vision”).

 

[stewstew03]

… If Jesus is God, then how can God be outside of space/time?
…

I should clarify – “outside of space/time” means not limited by space/time.

 

[stewstew03]

… How is omnipresence defined, for example, would it mean that as part of His omnipresence, God is in Hell and is present in the fallen angels?
…

Omnipresence = Alpha and Omega.

Hell = a place where men have decided to exclude God, and he obliges.

 

[Tomdstone]

I do not say that God does not exist, as I think that there are good reasons for believing in God. However, I see some of the properties assigned to God by the philosophers as problematic, and not well defined. Take for example, the property of God being everywhere. That would mean that God is in each and everyone of us, and that we all share in the Divine. Why then would the Eucharist be necessary? How would the divine in us differ from the divine in Jesus. Also, it seems contradictory and repugnant to say that the divine is in Satan.
Or take for example the property of Unmoved. But Jesus is God, and He has moved. Then it is said that this is phenomenological and not ontological. But why is that because before His birth 2000 years ago, ontologically and phenomenologically He did not have the body of a Man.
And similarly with reconciling the problem of evil and suffering with an All powerful and All loving God and All merciful God.
I am not sure that these philosophical properties are accurate descriptions of God.

 

[Tomdstone]

Hell = a place where men have decided to exclude God, and he obliges.

First you say that God is omnipresent and that He is everywhere, and then you say that God is excluded from Hell. This is what I mean when I say that properties such as this (omnipresent, etc.) are not well defined and are somewhat questionable.

 

[stewstew03]

First you say that God is omnipresent and that He is everywhere, and then you say that God is excluded from Hell. This is what I mean when I say that properties such as this (omnipresent, etc.) are not well defined and are somewhat questionable.

I defined it for you, but you left it out of the quote. I defined it as “Alpha and Omega.”

This might help too: Matthew 18:20 and 28:20.

 

[stewstew03]

First you say that God is omnipresent and that He is everywhere, and then you say that God is excluded from Hell. This is what I mean when I say that properties such as this (omnipresent, etc.) are not well defined and are somewhat questionable.

And here’s how Aquinas describes it:

“God is in all things by his power, inasmuch as all things are subject to his power; he is by his presence in all things, inasmuch as all things are bare and open to his eyes; he is in all things by his essence, inasmuch as he is present to all as the cause of their being” (Summa Theologica I, 8, 3)

 

[Tomdstone]

Science has now proven that other dimensions exist and other universes along with it.

I didn’t know that. I know that the multiverse is a hypothesis and similarly with string theory, but I didn’t know that these were proven. Can you supply the proof that there are other dimensions beyond the usual four that we know about?
One explanation for the bruising of our universe and anomalies in the CMB is the multiverse, but I suspect that there are other explanations.

 

[Tomdstone]

I defined it for you, but you left it out of the quote. I defined it as “Alpha and Omega.”

This might help too: Matthew 18:20 and 28:20.

That is another problem with these properties. First you say that God is omnipresent. The usual definition of omnipresent is present everywhere. Now you say, no, that’s not what it means - it means “Alpha and Omega.” What does “Alpha and Omega” really mean? Is God present everywhere or not?

 

[Tomdstone]

And here’s how Aquinas describes it:

“God is in all things by his power, inasmuch as all things are subject to his power; he is by his presence in all things, inasmuch as all things are bare and open to his eyes; he is in all things by his essence, inasmuch as he is present to all as the cause of their being” (Summa Theologica I, 8, 3)

Why then is God excluded from Hell? How could He be excluded from Hell, if He is present in all things by His essence? Also, if God is present in all things by His essence, would He not be present in Bread and Wine without the Words of Consecration being said?

 

[stewstew03]

That is another problem with these properties. First you say that God is omnipresent. The usual definition of omnipresent is present everywhere. Now you say, no, that’s not what it means - it means “Alpha and Omega.” What does “Alpha and Omega” really mean? Is God present everywhere or not?

Wait – I thought you were a professional philosopher? Shouldn’t you be the one teaching me about this stuff?

 

[Charlemagne_III]

Why then is God excluded from Hell? How could He be excluded from Hell, if He is present in all things by His essence? Also, if God is present in all things by His essence, would He not be present in Bread and Wine without the Words of Consecration being said?

When you say your religion is “other” exactly what does that mean?

Or is the “other” so vague you cannot define it?

Or are you hiding behind the “other”?

 

[Peter_Plato]

I am interested in [4]. If Jesus is God, then how can God be outside of space/time? And if God is omnipresent, does that mean that God is in every human being, so that every human is divine in some sense? How is omnipresence defined, for example, would it mean that as part of His omnipresence, God is in Hell and is present in the fallen angels?
For [5], if God is outside of spacetime, how is it possible for a human who is in spacetime to experience something outside of spacetime?

This might help, although it relates specifically to time rather than space.

0efcb99f-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/stumpep/Eternity.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7cr2nvYhS7az8aCQM24z_fTuEIPjXgt9xRee-b8bJGePqB5gAITS_0CDBcP1BOtnXQ7Cvw403T_34TMC_rzbqyiz_ktlPo7OpNBYe5c2An7y1XK3w1rTIh2cUW5PCVo-_6Lrnj0TAu_nIBTeQsz7t7CNUb-8RMUePUsxqvA2h-jrzqyP7gmE_sQHmGfLpEvnmdqSUtRVSH9AKcj5wXqFodTR6OQIbg%3D%3D&attredirects=1

A thought - one that relates to the discussion of up and down, as well.

If you are walking on a path in a valley, your range of vision is limited to your current location on the path and perhaps some of what lies ahead and what behind, depending on the curvature of the path.

Suppose someone is standing high on the mountain overlooking the path you are treading upon. They would have a much wider scope than you because of their perspective “above” the path. Now think of location in space-time as akin to being on a path. Your concept of “now” is, basically, your place on the path. If God is “outside” of space time, it merely means he is not limited to the path, he takes in or has access to the entirety of space time not from the perspective of the path, but more like - though not exactly like - the one high above the path taking in its entirety. That is not exactly like eternity, because even the one high above the path would have one perspective that “limits” him in some sense. Eternal would mean something like having a complete and unlimited possession of all perspectives, not limited by space or time.

Eternity, in this sense, is a “higher” realm in a similar sense to being upon the mountain is a “higher” place from which to take in the activities in space time. Ergo, Jesus “ascended” to his place at the right hand of God.

Do I deny that Jesus did “ascend” to this “place?” No. I just don’t think the “place” is one in some other “spaciotemporal” location. It can’t be because that would not be ascension, it would be “beam me up, Scotty” to the Starship, Heaven.

This also relates to Jesus “coming down” from Heaven and becoming man. He “gave up” his eternal existence at the right hand of God (the “high” one unlimited by space time) and chose to walk on the “low” path in space time as all human beings do. It was an act of self-limitation on the part of the Word of God.

 

[glendab]

Hello Tom.

I do not say that God does not exist, as I think that there are good reasons for believing in God. However, I see some of the properties assigned to God by the philosophers as problematic, and not well defined. Take for example, the property of God being everywhere. That would mean that God is in each and everyone of us, and that we all share in the Divine. Why then would the Eucharist be necessary? How would the divine in us differ from the divine in Jesus. Also, it seems contradictory and repugnant to say that the divine is in Satan.
Or take for example the property of Unmoved. But Jesus is God, and He has moved. Then it is said that this is phenomenological and not ontological. But why is that because before His birth 2000 years ago, ontologically and phenomenologically He did not have the body of a Man.
And similarly with reconciling the problem of evil and suffering with an All powerful and All loving God and All merciful God.
I am not sure that these philosophical properties are accurate descriptions of God.

Your questions are good ones and it appears you are actually seeking to know God better and that you are unsatisfied with what others share. To me that says you need some intimacy with Him. But the only way I know to get those kinds of answers are to seek Him in prayer. That is the answer. Look inside to find that divine spark that unites you to Him and let His being fill you. THEN you’ll find all the answers you were looking for and that internal yearning will quite down naturally. You’ll know God. And that’s when you stop asking so many questions. You’ll have a peace that the world cannot give, just like He said in the Scriptures. You seem like it says in the Psalm, …the deer that seeks for the running stream… Your thirst is for the Holy, not so much for the “answer.”

Glenda

 

[Bradski]

A thought - one that relates to the discussion of up and down, as well.

When the bible was written, there was only up and down. Heaven was up and hell was down. God reigned on high and came down to the mountain, Jesus ascended to heaven and sinners were thrust down to hell.

These weren’t literary conveniences. People actually believed it back then. And in fact, I’d say that most people today still believe that heaven and hell are actual places and that God is ‘up there’ (doesn’t He still watch ‘down’ on us?). And if you ask them where heaven is for example, a not inconsiderable proportion of people will point upwards.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

When the bible was written, there was only up and down. Heaven was up and hell was down. God reigned on high and came down to the mountain, Jesus ascended to heaven and sinners were thrust down to hell.

These weren’t literary conveniences. People actually believed it back then. And in fact, I’d say that most people today still believe that heaven and hell are actual places and that God is ‘up there’ (doesn’t He still watch ‘down’ on us?). And if you ask them where heaven is for example, a not inconsiderable proportion of people will point upwards.

Which planet are they pointing at?

 

[stewstew03]

…These weren’t literary conveniences…

And you know this… how, exactly?