Is it really "natural"...To stop masturbating?

[chessmane4e5]

I am curious, do you mean that he will “get over” being gay, or that he will accept it, as will God?

EDIT: I figured it out from reading more posts. I totally agree with you. I know a gay man that is a very devout Catholic. God made him that way, and I don’t think he thinks anything of it. If God made people gay, then how would it be a sin to be gay? If you think it is a conscious choice, then why are there so many animals that perform homosexual acts?

Please name some of these animals that are homosexuals. You will find that none of them engage in homosexual sex. Two males or two females may work or live together for a time, but their is reason for it, namely to preserve their species. Also, in Genesis we know two things: That God created male and female and only a man and a woman can unite as one; second that animals are less than humans, because humans were created in Gods image. To compare us to animals doesn’t make sense on so many levels. Animals act on instinct, they kill each other without remorse, infanticide, etc.

God did make anyone gay. There is no gay gene. The human genome project is complete and no gay gene was found. As hard as it is to except, being gay is a choice. It may not seem like one, because of the way society influences us, but it is. You can be “homosexual” and still go to heaven, so long as you do not engage in homosexual behavior, this is just like any other sin. The desire of Lust may appear when I see an attractive woman, but I know I am to push those feelings down. If I act on my desire, then I have sinned.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Yes, but lets look at why the church says the things it does. It is well known that many Romans and Greeks were homosexual and would basically have large orgies together. In my opinion, this is the type of thing that Paul and the prophets of the OT were speaking against. Did Jesus even mention homosexuality? I don’t think so. In Romans, when Paul mentions why homosexuality is bad, he also mentions that men * lust* after each other. Which to me, is the main cause of him saying it. I don’t think that the Bible condemns a monogamous loving relationship between two men to be honest…I just think it condemns the lusting after other men and having large orgy type of lifestyle that went with homosexuality in ancient times.

Lets look at why the Church says the things it does.

CCC 2357 Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disorder.” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstance can they be approved.

In a nutshell. Man and Woman “fit-together” in a natural way, this way also can bring about life.

As for the bible not condemning a monogamous loving relationship between two men or Jesus not mentioning it. The bible does not condemn abortion or using weapons of mass destruction. Jesus never said anything about electricity or the internet.

Lack of biblical scripture neither affirms something or denies it. This is one of the reasons that Christ founded His Church. He knew that times would change society. Had Jesus himself written the bible, in 500-1000 years it would have been facing the same challenges it does today, namely that people change. By founding a living Church, the people of God have a place to get answers when the bible seems “inadequate.”

CCC 1605 Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: “It is not good that the man should be alone.” The woman, “flesh of his flesh,” his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a “helpmate”; she thus represents God from whom comes our help. “Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh.” The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been “in the beginning”: “So they are no longer two, but one flesh.” Most of this is from Genesis.

Jesus did not mention homosexuality but he did say a lot about marriage between a man and a woman. He said, “So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” Matt 19:6

Seems to me that Jesus is affirming the Old Testament, not preaching a new gospel.

If people want to learn about what the Church teaches on marriage, I recommend “Good News about Sex & Marriage” by Christopher West. Definitely a must read for every Catholic. Really easy to read as well

 

[chessmane4e5]

Sorry for the triple post but I feel I need to clarify my above statement, that being gay is choice.

Being gay is NOT a choice, as in, today I chose to be straight, tomorrow I will chose to be gay, and then Saturday I will be bi-sexual. This is not the kind of choice I am talking about.

We all have desires in us. I might get really mad and want to punch someone in the face. I then have a choice to make, do I punch them or not? When I was a kid I would fight with my brothers and hit them. Could I have said, that I just got so angry that I hit them, but I didn’t have choice? No, what I didn’t have was control.

I definitely feel the most sympathy for anyone struggling with the desires of the flesh: whether it be same sex, or lust, pornography, pedophilia, etc. All these problems are compounded by our society today. I can not watch television with a show have a sex scene or a commercial showing scantily clad women. Advertisers know the power of sex and they are using (everyone has probably heard the statement “sex sells”). So believe me when I say, that I do not believe this is an easy issue, both because of the nature of the problem and because society has made it worse.

So how is it a choice? I could give you stories of people who were gay and have changed, but instead I will try and relate my own experiences. Until I was 18, there was always a little part of me that worried I gay. I mean, I was attracted to girls but I wondered if this was only because that is who I was taught to like. During my adolescence I also had some dreams of me being intimate with males. Obviously this concerned me, but I just brushed them off as dreams. Then their was the fact that when I heard girls say they thought a boy was cute, I would think to myself, well he is not ugly and I can see why they think he is cute. Was I ever “attracted” to guys? No, not in the same way I was to girls, but again, I wonder if society influenced me.

To elaborate, I have heard of many stories where gay people relate stories of being made fun of in school. Males are labeled as feminine, called gay, bullied, etc. Females are called lesbo’s, butch, etc. The people have said that this was a factor in their “choosing” the homosexual lifestyle. So I wonder, had I been called gay, or had a more feminine body, or who knows, would I have turned out differently?

I just feel there is something to be said for this. In middle school, I had no idea who I really attracted to. Had I been ostracized and then felt insecure or inadequate, I would have probably turned to the one place I could find love, a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy. I know the mind is a powerful thing.

So how does any of this help you? Well, I do not think praying is enough. Might God answer your prayers and you will make up tomorrow and be attracted to woman? Sure, it could happen. But you could also achieve the same result with counseling and a strong desire on your part. I would suggest removing any temptations in your life (notice this advice should also be applied to straight people). If you have pictures on your walls that tempt you, take them down. If you watch certain tv shows that make you think immoral things, do not watch them.

I have written far too much, but do not feel I have given justice to this topic. I would suggest reading the book “Good News about Sex & Marriage” by Christopher West. The book explains the Churchs teaching on marriage between a man and a woman as well as why priests are celibate. There is only one chapter on homosexuality, but I think it will help you realize how God wants man and woman to be together. Which is very different from how our society portrays it, with one-night stands and adultery, with a mentality that it is all about pleasure. This is so far from true.

I will say a decade of the rosary for you and keep you in my prayers.

 

[prettylarge]

Please name some of these animals that are homosexuals. You will find that none of them engage in homosexual sex. Two males or two females may work or live together for a time, but their is reason for it, namely to preserve their species.

Yeah, you are completely wrong. Here is a quote from the video

“Orangutans are extremely resourceful. They can retract their penis to create a cavity for other males to penetrate.”

You know, I was taught in Catholic school that there was no homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Hmmm, looks like it was all a big lie.

youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE

 

[prettylarge]

Please name some of these animals that are homosexuals. You will find that none of them engage in homosexual sex. Two males or two females may work or live together for a time, but their is reason for it, namely to preserve their species. Also, in Genesis we know two things: That God created male and female and only a man and a woman can unite as one; second that animals are less than humans, because humans were created in Gods image. To compare us to animals doesn’t make sense on so many levels. ** Animals act on instinct**, they kill each other without remorse, infanticide, etc.

God did make anyone gay. There is no gay gene. The human genome project is complete and no gay gene was found. As hard as it is to except, being gay is a choice. It may not seem like one, because of the way society influences us, but it is. You can be “homosexual” and still go to heaven, so long as you do not engage in homosexual behavior, this is just like any other sin. The desire of Lust may appear when I see an attractive woman, but I know I am to push those feelings down. If I act on my desire, then I have sinned.

Animals act on instinct, as you said. And now that I have proven that animals have homosexual sex, then it must be an instinct. i.e., God has instilled it into them. So it looks like homosexuality is not so unnatural after all.

I don’t even understand how people can even have this view. It appears that you do not find men sexually attractive at all. If other people do, and don’t find women sexually attractive at all, don’t you think it is not just a choice? Do believe if you were to give up the church you would be able to just start like guys? No, of course not, just like these guys could not just start liking women. Homosexuality is natural as much as you hate to admit it (and have been lied to about it).

 

[Shlomey]

Hi. It’s my first post. And it’s probably going to be my only post; I made this account specifically for this one question.

I’m a 17 year old kid. I have been looking at past forums dealing with the topic for over 2 hours now. And a lot of time was spent on it yesterday, too. There were many successes of people that have gone months, and even years, but mostly were those that “fell” every couple weeks or so, and that just led them straight back into mortal sin.
The thing is, how can somebody possibly stop this, once and for all? To be honest…I don’t think I could. The sad part is…I don’t think I’d want to. I just a couple days ago learned that it is a grave sin, and I couldn’t believe it. I was in shock. But I haven’t done it since, so I’m still good.
Well, my question is, is it natural to stop? Seriously…Like, everybody does it. Everybody. Except for those select few that are SO close to God that they have no need for it. Not that anybody has any need for it, but it does help to relieve stress…
Another question, that goes along with what I said before (everybody does it…), how do so many people get the Eucharist? If it is a mortal sin, and you can’t get the Eucharist in a state of not-grace, how on earth do so many people go up there? ALL of those people can’t seriously not do it. Right? Am I right in assuming that? I guess, it’s possible that they all went to confession in that same week, but how unlikely is that.
I just really need some answers here, because now that I know it’s a mortal sin…I feel like, I’m never going to be able to get Communion again. <=( Maybe I’ll be good for this week, and the week after, but I KNOW I’ll fall eventually. Hopefully with God’s help, I won’t, but…There just seems to be no way of completely stopping.

Thanks in advance to anyone that responds. Any (name removed by moderator)ut…would be appreciated.

I suppose that thinking about what your penis - sorry for the blunt bioligical language - is there for in a very “cold” manner may help: it is first and foremost a reproductive organ, it is a sex organ. Therefore, its biological purpose is to be united to a sex organ of the opposite sex to produce offspring. Your hands are not sex organs: thus, masturbation - as any other “alternative form of sex” is actually an abuse of your sexual faculties.

If you want an example: it would not be any different for you to hump a hole in a tree.
The equation is the same: sex organ + non-sex organ = abuse of nature.

(Pardon my blunt language, I hope I did not violate any rules)

 

[prettylarge]

As for the bible not condemning a monogamous loving relationship between two men or Jesus not mentioning it. The bible does not condemn abortion or using weapons of mass destruction. Jesus never said anything about electricity or the internet.

Are you trying to say that they did not have loving relationships between two men back then? And you acknowledge the homosexual acts talked about in the Bible were more to do with lust and orgy scenarios than loving relationships? But you say they are wrong anyway, even though Jesus didn’t talk about them, because he didn’t talk about the internet either? This logic is astounding. By that logic I will say that going to church is wrong, you know, because Jesus didn’t talk about the internet either.

 

[Shlomey]

Yeah, you are completely wrong. Here is a quote from the video

“Orangutans are extremely resourceful. They can retract their penis to create a cavity for other males to penetrate.”

You know, I was taught in Catholic school that there was no homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Hmmm, looks like it was all a big lie.

youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE

Animals perform homosexual acts: this does not mean there is a homosexual orientation amongst animals. Some animals do these acts to humiliate other animals of the same sex to show their dominance: this was practiced by some ancient warrions also in Europe.

When it comes to homosexuality: certainly the orientation is not a choice, but the lifestyle is.

A person attracted to the same sex can only live chaste if he so chooses to be with God.

And it will only be “depressing” if it is a matter of suppression instead of a healthy integration of one’s orientation into one’s spiritual walk.

And let us remember that there is no sacrifice too great for true love. We are first commanded to love God above all. Seeking loopholes and justification for certain sins already reveals an error in attitude.

 

[prettylarge]

Jesus did not mention homosexuality but he did say a lot about marriage between a man and a woman. He said, “So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.” Matt 19:6

This pretty much sums up my argument. Either Jesus didn’t care about homosexuality at all, or the apostles and writers of the gospel didn’t think it was an important part of his message. And, you know what, as for Paul talking about homosexuals, he talked about people that eat too much even more. Paul talked about people who’s “God is their belly” in phillipians I believe. And he focused a lot more on that than on homosexuals. So why doesn’t the church condemn fat people? I mean if homosexuals can’t have gay sex, fat people should be stricken from Mcdonalds, right? I mean logically, that would make more sense from a scriptural stand point. According to the New Testament, eating double cheese burgers is just as bad as gay sex.

Why don’t you do some research on when sexual sins started to come to the forefront of Christian morality…because I can tell you right now that it wasn’t the big deal it is made out to be now in the early church. And that is FACT.

 

[prettylarge]

Animals perform homosexual acts: this does not mean there is a homosexual orientation amongst animals. Some animals do these acts to humiliate other animals of the same sex to show their dominance: this was practiced by some ancient warrions also in Europe.

When it comes to homosexuality: certainly the orientation is not a choice, but the lifestyle is.

A person attracted to the same sex can only live chaste if he so chooses to be with God.

And it will only be “depressing” if it is a matter of suppression instead of a healthy integration of one’s orientation into one’s spiritual walk.

And let us remember that there is no sacrifice too great for true love. We are first commanded to love God above all. Seeking loopholes and justification for certain sins already reveals an error in attitude.

This whole argument is ridiculous. As I said before, do you think that overeaters can’t love God either? Because the new testament talked more about the sins of over eating than the sins of homosexuality. So what do you think, is a fat person worse off than a gay person? Because if you read the New Testament, you would probably think that.

 

[Shlomey]

This whole argument is ridiculous. As I said before, do you think that overeaters can’t love God either? Because the new testament talked more about the sins of over eating than the sins of homosexuality. So what do you think, is a fat person worse off than a gay person? Because if you read the New Testament, you would probably think that.

Gluttony is a deadly sin: there’s a reason it is called a deadly sin. Someone who claims to “love God” but chooses to justify his sin with silly arguments rather than to subject himself to a change according to God’s Will is a hypocrite.

Why do you even care about the sins of others’? They do not justify your sins.

“They profess that they know God: but in their works they deny him; being abominable, and incredulous, and to every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:16)

A “gay person” is not necessarily sexually active. Therefore, I cannot follow your question. But I can tell you that the Bible does teach that Sodomites who die not repenting of their sins will be excluded from heaven.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Yeah, you are completely wrong. Here is a quote from the video

“Orangutans are extremely resourceful. They can retract their penis to create a cavity for other males to penetrate.”

You know, I was taught in Catholic school that there was no homosexuality in the animal kingdom. Hmmm, looks like it was all a big lie.

youtube.com/watch?v=7RlTAyNI8WE

Here watch this:

youtube.com/watch?v=6DBuk91phkI

So since animals do it, it must be okay for people.

I also asked why should we be compared to animals?

 

[Shlomey]

Actually, now on the topic of the Christian faith and homosexuality, let me post a series (Catholic):

Part1:
youtube.com/watch?v=Gcyy-4pH-Vc
Part 2A/B:
youtube.com/watch?v=_LlrfRiYMIA
youtube.com/watch?v=8mA5uih5kV4
Part 3:
youtube.com/watch?v=mxsv14NmQAA

 

[chessmane4e5]

Are you trying to say that they did not have loving relationships between two men back then? And you acknowledge the homosexual acts talked about in the Bible were more to do with lust and orgy scenarios than loving relationships? But you say they are wrong anyway, even though Jesus didn’t talk about them, because he didn’t talk about the internet either? This logic is astounding. By that logic I will say that going to church is wrong, you know, because Jesus didn’t talk about the internet either.

I am using your logic. You said, that since Jesus did not talk about homosexuality in the Bible…

Using your logic, Jesus did not talk about Abortion or the internet.

My logic is that simply because Jesus did not talk about it, does not make it right or wrong. We need to figure it out.

As for homosexual acts in the past. Clearly they happened. But you seem to want to dismiss that throughout history (Greece and Rome excluded) homosexual acts were not viewed as good or natural. Even in Greece and Rome, they were only accepted if the males were married and had kids. They believed that pure homosexuality was wrong.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Animals act on instinct, as you said. And now that I have proven that animals have homosexual sex, then it must be an instinct. i.e., God has instilled it into them. So it looks like homosexuality is not so unnatural after all.

I don’t even understand how people can even have this view. It appears that you do not find men sexually attractive at all. If other people do, and don’t find women sexually attractive at all, don’t you think it is not just a choice? Do believe if you were to give up the church you would be able to just start like guys? No, of course not, just like these guys could not just start liking women. Homosexuality is natural as much as you hate to admit it (and have been lied to about it).

Was it instinct for Jeffery Dahmer to kill and eat people? God did not put sinful desires in us, that is your fallacy. You have proven that 2 male (what about female) animals engage in activity that is sexual, but you have not proven that those animals are homosexuals.

For example, there is beetle that does “have sex” (no penetration in this case) with other male beetles. But what scientists discovered was that they do this to get rid of the old sperm, so that when they do have sex with a female beetle, the chance of reproduction is greater. Is that beetle a bi-sexual then (or the scientist observing just the homosexual act might label the beetle as purely homosexual). Man can not get into the mind of an animal and determine why it is doing what it is doing.

Please read my other post about choice.

 

[prettylarge]

Was it instinct for Jeffery Dahmer to kill and eat people? God did not put sinful desires in us, that is your fallacy. You have proven that 2 male (what about female) animals engage in activity that is sexual, but you have not proven that those animals are homosexuals.

For example, there is beetle that does “have sex” (no penetration in this case) with other male beetles. But what scientists discovered was that they do this to get rid of the old sperm, so that when they do have sex with a female beetle, the chance of reproduction is greater. Is that beetle a bi-sexual then (or the scientist observing just the homosexual act might label the beetle as purely homosexual). Man can not get into the mind of an animal and determine why it is doing what it is doing.

Please read my other post about choice.

Did you watch the video I posted? It is a documented fact that both males and females in the animal kingdom have homosexual sex. It is on VIDEO. And it isn’t just to get rid of old sperm. Please watch the video.

 

[chessmane4e5]

This pretty much sums up my argument. Either Jesus didn’t care about homosexuality at all, or the apostles and writers of the gospel didn’t think it was an important part of his message. And, you know what, as for Paul talking about homosexuals, he talked about people that eat too much even more. Paul talked about people who’s “God is their belly” in phillipians I believe. And he focused a lot more on that than on homosexuals. So why doesn’t the church condemn fat people? I mean if homosexuals can’t have gay sex, fat people should be stricken from Mcdonalds, right? I mean logically, that would make more sense from a scriptural stand point. According to the New Testament, eating double cheese burgers is just as bad as gay sex.

Why don’t you do some research on when sexual sins started to come to the forefront of Christian morality…because I can tell you right now that it wasn’t the big deal it is made out to be now in the early church. And that is FACT.

Jesus and the apostles didn’t talk about it because it was not an issue in their time, i.e. people were not engaging in it or already knew that it was wrong.

If it became an issue around 400 A.D. that was because Christianity was finally made a legal religion in Rome and in Rome people were practicing homosexuality.

As for Paul and food, you may need to re-read that part because you missed it. He as writing to correct the Jewish converts who were still hanging on to the old laws from Leviticus. Again, he focused on this because at the time, it was a huge issue. Pauls message was not on over-eating, “God is their belly” refers to people who were claiming they were holier than others because of what they ate (or didn’t eat, pork for example).

So to sum up. Homosexuality was not an issue because people already knew it was bad. Why would Jesus and the Apostles waste time talking about something they already knew was wrong and was not a major practice of the people at the time. This is why Jesus created a Living Church, so it could adapt to the times.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Did you watch the video I posted? It is a documented fact that both males and females in the animal kingdom have homosexual sex. It is on VIDEO. And it isn’t just to get rid of old sperm. Please watch the video.

I don’t need to watch the video, I have already researched this topic thoroughly. You need to understand, that man is different from animals. Did you watch my video?

Animals do not have a soul. Animals do not have a consciousness. Man and animals are different.

 

[prettylarge]

Jesus and the apostles didn’t talk about it because it was not an issue in their time, i.e. people were not engaging in it or already knew that it was wrong.

If it became an issue around 400 A.D. that was because Christianity was finally made a legal religion in Rome and in Rome people were practicing homosexuality.

As for Paul and food, you may need to re-read that part because you missed it. He as writing to correct the Jewish converts who were still hanging on to the old laws from Leviticus. Again, he focused on this because at the time, it was a huge issue. Pauls message was not on over-eating, “God is their belly” refers to people who were claiming they were holier than others because of what they ate (or didn’t eat, pork for example).

So to sum up. Homosexuality was not an issue because people already knew it was bad. Why would Jesus and the Apostles waste time talking about something they already knew was wrong and was not a major practice of the people at the time. This is why Jesus created a Living Church, so it could adapt to the times.

I disagree with your interpretation of “God is their belly.” I was told by my professor, who has written at least 5 books on Paul and is a leading scholar on his letters, that the people Paul was referring to when he said “God is their belly” were gluttons.

 

[prettylarge]

Animals do not have a soul. Animals do not have a consciousness. Man and animals are different.

I realize this. But you said that animals act on instinct. And, if animals only act on instinct, and they have homosexual intercourse, then obviously that is an instinct, right? And if it is an instinct in animals, and humans do it too, why do you not think that it is an instinct in some humans as well?