Is it right (or within the rights) of Catholic schools to expell unwed mothers?

[Like]

Try to keep up. We’re talking about girls and boys participating in sex outside of marriage.

If she claims to be a victim of a crime then I would assume that the police are investigating the matter and more information will be forth coming. If she is a victim, of course the school would not expell her.

Of course not, but should all morality be held hostage by the possibility that the girl in question might further sin by having an abortion?

Yeah, having a moral clause (in the student handbook or an employee’s contract) is such a downer. Who needs morals anyway? LOL

I knew when I responded to this thread that I would find many Catholics who did not support the same view I had. I hope that I have not been too sarcastic nor do I want to come off as insulting. I know that my opinion is considered outdate and no longer popular in today’s society and I can live with that. Thankfully, my children are no longer in high school so I no longer have to worry about this specific situation. To those parents who are yet to have teens, I wish you the very best, and may God bless you and your children. Peace all and God bless.

Amen!

I thank God my kids are not of this generation!

 

[Tietjen]

So if one/some of the students were caught stealing, or lying, or cheating, or spray painting someone’s house, they would need to be expelled also?

The first time the sin/crime was discovered, correct?
Just as the pregnant girls would be, right?

Seems like there’d be a lot of empty schools if this were followed ‘correctly’.

True, so why are you suggesting this? If you are perhaps attempting to take one of my posts out of context in order to make a point you have failed. I have never said that students that get caught telling a lie, cheating, stealing or even spray painting a house should be expelled. I have asked the question, what offense would rise to the level where expulsion was warranted. If a teen going around participating in sex outside of marriage doesn’t make the cut, what could possibly warrant a student ever being expelled? What is more serious, being a teen who has told a lie or being an unwed teen that is pregnant? Which is worse, a teen who stole the answers from an upcoming test or an unwed teen who is pregnant? If a teen that is having sex outside of marriage isn’t serious enough to warrant expulsion, then certainly none of the offenses that you mentioned would be either. What do you think… maybe murder??? Would that warrant expulsion?

 

[NewAgeCatholic]

We’re governed by rules and private institutions have those. If a teaching order nun gets pregnant, will she be allowed to still teach in a Catholic school? I don’t think so. That said as to public schools, we’ve come a long way. In the 60’s or 70’s a high school girl would be pretty much blocked from graduation. I know several that have a GED and a wonderful child but were snickered upon by the high school in charge.
Most of us have issues against abortion… I’m pro adoption when it’s not ideal to raise the child yourself which works so well. I know the Catholic Church has issues about birth control. That’s very sad they are so far behind the times and reallistic family planning. There are many times, you’ll find me saying I’m a cafetria Catholic. I take what I want and with all due respect leave the rest behind. God is my Judge, not some man made old church rules or my parish priest.

 

[NewAgeCatholic]

Also, as to the unwed with child, it brings me back to Mary and what she was deemed about to give birth to Jesus. At least she had Joseph by her side.

 

[TC2]

Question asked and answered, thank you.

 

[Bluegoat]

Blame the school for the girl choosing to engage in sex outside of marriage… interesting way to deal with the problem.

If you had bothered to quote, or read, the whole sentence, you would see that after having talked about the girl’s culpability, I said the school should probably check to see if this was an isolated incident, or if it reflects a bigger problem. In which case, perhaps there is some problem with their teaching/example/environment.

It is not at all uncommon for promiscuity to be common at girls schools, even Catholic ones. (In fact it is a bit of a cliche that Catholic school girls are the most “fun”.) Just because one girl got caught by getting pregnant doesn’t mean that she is the only one involved in such activity.

 

[leonie]

I’m always so torn by this issue. I don’t think it is agood thing for the other students at all. When I used to substitute in a public high school, I overheard several girls going on and on about their babies. And, I remember thinking that for a certain type of girl, having a baby would be a very attractive thing. And, the same for young men, to prove their virility.

But, I would hate for a young girl with a child to be pushed away from the church. I think the best scenario would be to provide an alternate educational program during the pregnancy with lots of support services by local Catholic parish programs.

In other words, remove the girl (and father, if he is known), but place them in another supportive environment.

The other children are protected from the scandal and subtle influences, but the pregnant couple get help. And, a couple in this situation have needs that other kids do not.

 

[Bluegoat]

I’m always so torn by this issue. I don’t think it is agood thing for the other students at all. When I used to substitute in a public high school, I overheard several girls going on and on about their babies. And, I remember thinking that for a certain type of girl, having a baby would be a very attractive thing. And, the same for young men, to prove their virility.

But, I would hate for a young girl with a child to be pushed away from the church. I think the best scenario would be to provide an alternate educational program during the pregnancy with lots of support services by local Catholic parish programs.

In other words, remove the girl (and father, if he is known), but place them in another supportive environment.

The other children are protected from the scandal and subtle influences, but the pregnant couple get help. And, a couple in this situation have needs that other kids do not.

Ah, this does seem like a more viable solution. If there were large numbers of regnant girls in the area, it would be quite a good ministry to offer them educational and support services that would work for them. If there were very few it could be more difficult - I don’t know that putting a pregnant girl in with young offenders is the best idea for example. But something could likely be arranged on an individual basis I would think.

I find it interesting in this thread that teen sex is seen as so much more horrible than lying or stealing. Depending on the circumstances I don’t see how it is much worse than either. In the Divine Comedy, Dante had the illicit lovers at the very top of Hell, and I think that is an astute psychological observation on his part.

 

[cascabel]

Tietjen,

I believe I understand your point but I just cannot agree. You have said:

If you are perhaps attempting to take one of my posts out of context in order to make a point you have failed.

However this is exactly what youve done to many of us who dont hold the same viewpoint as you. Because one wishes to exercise mercy instead of judgement doesnt make one liberal or weak in the face of sin.

Blame the school for the girl choosing to engage in sex outside of marriage… interesting way to deal with the problem.

No one has said that. The young lady and her partner are guilty of having sex outside of marriage, no one is arguing that. However their is some culpability due to those that have raised and educated the child. It would the harsh and unmerciful reaction of the school that is being condemned.

By admonish do you mean “speak sternly” to her? Certainly you’re not talking about corporal punishment. Hmmm… what else could a school do? Detention? How many days do you give a girl who participates in sex outside of marriage? When I was a kid, fighting got me 3 days detention.

Sorry, no, I dont think hitting a pregnant girl would be appropriate. But then again I err on the side of mercy, hence my opposition to expulsion. If you notice your crime which warranted three days detention was an act of violence towards another human being. The young lady would have harmed no one but herself. Now before you attempt “to take one of my posts out of context in order to make a point”, I am not saying which sin one commits is greater or lesser, just making the point that every action has to be appropriate to the situation.

God disciplines AND loves just as parents and even a Catholic high school can do. I do not understand how you can equate that if someone (maybe God too) punishes another human being it means that the punisher does not love the punished.

Wow, what a huge leap. Yes, God disciplines and loves. He is God, he may do as he wishes. Praise be to him. I have said that all along. I did not however elevate myself to an equal status in the ability to judge and administer punishment for sin.

She is not being expelled from the Church. No one is suggesting that she be excommunicated or shunned.

That is exactly what your saying! She would be expelled from her school( a very public shunning) because of her mistake. Then you suggest that she may still go to Church. If the Church wasnt there to stand by her in the first instance why would she even think they would be there now.

Jesus came for everyone because NONE are righteous.

True! Now do we expel everyone since everyone sins? Or maybe just those that bare outward physical reminders of their sins? Are we trying to stop sin or just present a certain image for others to see? The book of Matthew, chapter 15 would jump out at me here; “This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me”. And also 23; “Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites; because you are like to whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear to men beautiful, but within are full of dead men’s bones, and of all filthiness”.

May God forgive us, everyone of us, for having offended him. May he bless all of us and bring us into his wonderful presence. Amen.
Tom

 

[Sunflower15]

globalnation.inquirer.net/news/breakingnews/view/20090917-225651/Catholic-schools-seek-womens-law-exemption

slightly a double post, i posted this in the news section as well but i want to start a discussion from a different angle. so as the topc goes, what should be the case?

**I think that we are either ProLife or concerned about scandal. Not both; these are mutually exclusive. **

In order to accommodate a Culture of Life, we’ll have to make uncomfortable adjustments to our sensibilities…there is just NO other way…mistakes will not go away, in fact these mistakes will seem to multiply once all those once aborted ‘mistakes’ can no longer be ‘hidden’…

When other young people see the challenges that ‘real life’ bring when the taking care of little ones becomes necessary, this in itself will be a useful deterrent to further ‘mistakes’ for the same young people as well as for all others around.

Accountability for one’s own actions will be a great ‘advertisement’ for control.

We do not need to be afraid of pregnancy nor of babies…this fear is a side-effect of the Culture of Death brought about by Abortion…people knew this was a ‘fact of life’ previously.

In addition, this sends the wrong message to a young person who will now need education even more in order to care for children. The needs of these young people becoming parents and their babies should be our priority, NOT ‘scandal’…

 

[Just_Lurking]

The only fair policy is to hook up each student, boy or girl, to a lie-detector test each year, and find out if they are still virgins. All non-virgins should be expelled. This could be done just before the start of the school year, so that the expelled students can find another school with lax standards.

 

[Sunflower15]

This may upset some, but I have to ask…

What about the young man who got her pregnant?

Does he suffer any consequences…she already has to go through morning sickness, feeling terrible [maybe] for 9 months, painful delivery, risking her health/life [due to youth] and shame that she cannot hide anywhere she goes…

What does the young man have to endure that compares?

IF she were to simply have an abortion, then all her trouble would go away, she would have an education [and a future!], no shame, no feeling nauseous nor going through labor…no one even needed to find out if done early enough…
*
Do you see the problem with the ‘punishment’ attitude when a woman chooses Life over Death?*

 

[cascabel]

This may upset some, but I have to ask…

What about the young man who got her pregnant?

Good point, it takes two to tango. Like Ive already implied, if you start to expel when someone fails morally, youre going to have an empty school pretty soon.

IF she were to simply have an abortion,

then all her trouble would go away, she would have an education [and a future!], no shame, no feeling nauseous nor going through labor…no one even needed to find out if done early enough…
**

Exactly! We tell young women not to have abortions(May the Lord aid us in bringing and end to this practice.) when these are the type of real world issues they face. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation. We want you to keep the baby but were going to kick you out of school, removing the possibility of you becoming a proper provider(remember that a high number of single unwed mothers dont receive any support from the fathers of these children), “shun” you, and make you feel completely unwanted!? Does this sound even remotely reasonable to anyone? It doesnt to me.

Do you see the problem with the ‘punishment’ attitude when a woman chooses Life over Death?

I do and have for quite some time. This is why these young women need our help, not our condemnation. May God bless us all.
Tom

 

[Lainey63]

That is not accurate. If it were so, there would be less abortions today than there were in the past. Sorry all… it is not politically correct nor does it sound charitable; however, if there are not harsh consequences, teenagers simply won’t care. Look at society today. Look back at society 70 years ago. Do you see a difference? Reading some of your posts, I get the impression that there are those here who would excuse just about any immoral act for the sake of being politically correct or not wanting to make a CHILD mad by imposing consequences for inappropriate behavior. I am all for helping the teen and her new baby, but perhaps I’m just not as allowing as many of today’s Catholics. God bless.

I stand by what I said, however I’m having a hard time understanding what you are trying to convey… Being prolife is politically correct now & uncharitable? :ehh:

 

[Mrs_Sally]

First, at this point she cannot go back and correct it. However, if she is forced to suffer the consequences (the expulsion) she very well may not make the same mistake in the future. That is how kids learn. Lecturing them doesn’t work.

On the contrary. In this type of case there is every reason to believe that this girl will again have sex outside of marriage and even perhaps get pregnant again. This is a pattern very commonly seen if the girl is not helped with education and training after the first time.

A young woman with a baby and no or little job prospects needs to survive. If another boy/man came along and started paying attention to her–taking her out, buying her dinner etc., she is statistically very likely to start sleeping with him.

If however, she get help with her baby and the education she needs to go on to college or get a reasonably good job, she is much less likely to take up with the next boy that comes along.

Any social worker, church missionary, or anyone else who works with teen mothers will say the same thing. It would behoove all Catholic schools to have arrangments they can put in place to assist any girl who becomes pregnant in their student body, even if they feel the girl needs to leave that campus.

 

[NewAgeCatholic]

I don’t see any school where teens attend can prevent the child’s decision to have sex, assuming it was mutually accepted sex and not rape as in most cases. I would hope that the Catholic school would also teach sex education, STD prevention, abstainence of course, However abstaining is not going to happen for many youngsters. Education is key, all forms of birth control should be taught. You can’t have it both ways. Teach the child about options. Our way or the highway is impressive in a private school, but they are not being realistic. Some of these youngsters want love, attention and they know God forgives our mistakes and sins. That’s what it’s all about to deal with reality but teach about options and protection… He (or she) who is without sin, cast the first rock. Each case is different and it’s difficult to paint a broad brush hard and fast rule to be applied as if one size fits all…

 

[flyingfish]

globalnation.inquirer.net/news/breakingnews/view/20090917-225651/Catholic-schools-seek-womens-law-exemption

slightly a double post, i posted this in the news section as well but i want to start a discussion from a different angle. so as the topc goes, what should be the case?

Expelling unwed mothers is a sure way to give those women a reason to have an abortion.

If we want to reduce the number of abortions, we need to make it as easy as possible for those women to become mothers.

 

[caoindealbhan]

I believe the issue of expelling seems harsh. It indicates forever not being allowed to return. But there is a step before expulsion called suspension. Students are suspended for fighting, destruction of property, etc. The unwed mother could be suspended with the knowledge that once she was no longer in “the family way” she could return to her studies as if nothing had occurred.

    The other aspect to this situation that is not being addressed is what is the common good?  Does the student body have rights to not be exposed to a situation that is a private matter?  Children are not fully adults yet.  They deserve our protection from harmful influences that may pique their curiosity if they are confronted with a reality that they cannot comprehend or fully understand.

     I am a teacher.  I love my students.  But I also know that certain realities should not be presented to them just yet.

 

[Chatter163]

So no Catholic girl can ever be the victim of rape? That’s interesting, I didn’t know that.

Or of coercion or incest?

What if she claims to be the victim but there’s no proof? Will she be excluded then?

Would the school rather a pregnant girl had an abortion, to save the reputation of the school?

I wouldn’t want any daughter of mine to go to a so-called Catholic school that had such a policy, to be honest.

I always love those polemicists who make an assertion that was in no way stated by the OP, but act like it was, and then respond to that falsehood in a sarcastic way. This one is then followed by a black-and-white-there-is-no-gray-epithet about abortion.

Apparently such a member cannot logically and unhistrionically participate in the discussions

 

[Sunflower15]

I believe the issue of expelling seems harsh. It indicates forever not being allowed to return. But there is a step before expulsion called suspension. Students are suspended for fighting, destruction of property, etc. The unwed mother could be suspended with the knowledge that once she was no longer in “the family way” she could return to her studies as if nothing had occurred.

    The other aspect to this situation that is not being addressed is what is the common good?  Does the student body have rights to not be exposed to a situation that is a private matter?  Children are not fully adults yet.  They deserve our protection from harmful influences that may pique their curiosity if they are confronted with a reality that they cannot comprehend or fully understand.

     I am a teacher.  I love my students.  But I also know that certain realities should not be presented to them just yet.

I did think about this…and then concluded that it is probably the best ‘collective lesson’ on sex education and morality one can possibly offer all the students.

They get to see first hand, the challenges this young girl will have to face…it would have scared the heck out of me at that age! And, it allows for a TRUE Culture of Life to develop.

The main reason why a Culture of Death developed was that society was hypocritical in that they ‘hid’ mistakes or misjudgments instead of accepting, facing, coping, and dealing with them.

Most kids are either very knowledgeable or already sexually active anyway, this might be the perfect solution to that problem! When not even the threat of AIDS works!