Is it right (or within the rights) of Catholic schools to expell unwed mothers?

[Tietjen]

those are your words not mine. funny i am forbidden by you to make an analogy but you can

By all means Choy, make an analogy… make more than one. Whatever it takes. The fact is Choy, you (and it appears many here), don’t have the same view of pre-marital sex as the Church does. I assume that you must see it as something less than a mortal sin, possibly not even a venial sin but instead simply a “not so good idea.” Let me ask you Choy; does that same Catholic school have the right (or is it right) to terminate an unwed teacher who finds her “with child?” If you say “yes” then please explain why it is right to do so in one case and not the other. If you answer “no” then I know that there are certain sins, that in your estimation are relative… in other words, you disregard what the Church says about them and value your own beliefs above the Church’s teaching. God bless.

 

[Tietjen]

Wow, a Catholic after my own heart!

 

[rayne89]

Your right of course Choy. Murder is a most serious sin, and everybody knows that sex outside of marriage is no big deal, right?

Ahh but sex outside of marriage isn’t what the girl is being expelled for, its for being pregnant. Being pregnant isn’t a sin. Do all the non-virgins get expelled?

 

[Bluegoat]

By all means Choy, make an analogy… make more than one. Whatever it takes. The fact is Choy, you (and it appears many here), don’t have the same view of pre-marital sex as the Church does. I assume that you must see it as something less than a mortal sin, possibly not even a venial sin but instead simply a “not so good idea.” Let me ask you Choy; does that same Catholic school have the right (or is it right) to terminate an unwed teacher who finds her “with child?” If you say “yes” then please explain why it is right to do so in one case and not the other. If you answer “no” then I know that there are certain sins, that in your estimation are relative… in other words, you disregard what the Church says about them and value your own beliefs above the Church’s teaching. God bless.

A teacher is a rather different proposition. A teacher generally signs a contract which sets out the terms of employment. The teacher is an adult and able to be responsible for her actions in the way teenagers are not yet. A teacher has willingly taken on an extra responsibility to be an example and guide for young people - all teachers and people in authority bear an extra responsibility in such things.

Sex outside of marriage is a sin, but not generally the worst one - it is a misdirection of an essentially good act. If you look at the list of the 7 deadly sins, it compares most to gluttony - not pride or wrath or envy.

Sin in Christianity is relative - that is one of the great truths of Christianity. The same act in one circumstance by one person can have a much different character than by a different person in a different situation. Teens are often less culpable than an adult would be - their brains are not finished developing until age 18 - 21. Among the last things to develop are higher abstract reasoning abilities, and the ability to anticipate consequences. Both of these impact their ability to assess their own actions.

If you want people to listen to your arguments, you need to be more careful about your comparisons, and stop taking what they say out of context.

 

[CradleCath]

as a Filipino who grew up in Catholic schools from pre-school all the way to post-graduate studies, i can tell you that this has happened time and again. that is why the Catholic schools are asking for the exemption.

funny though that i recall one woman who got pregnant in post-graduate and she never got married. she never got expelled. so business students of Catholic universities are exempt from this rule while highschool and college students are? well, this is for another discussion. just popped into my head now

Are there any truly Catholic Universities left?? You’re right…this is for another discussion.

 

[CradleCath]

bravo!!!

 

[choy]

By all means Choy, make an analogy… make more than one. Whatever it takes. The fact is Choy, you (and it appears many here), don’t have the same view of pre-marital sex as the Church does. I assume that you must see it as something less than a mortal sin, possibly not even a venial sin but instead simply a “not so good idea.” Let me ask you Choy; does that same Catholic school have the right (or is it right) to terminate an unwed teacher who finds her “with child?” If you say “yes” then please explain why it is right to do so in one case and not the other. If you answer “no” then I know that there are certain sins, that in your estimation are relative… in other words, you disregard what the Church says about them and value your own beliefs above the Church’s teaching. God bless.

i applaud you, you know me very well just by reading some of my posts here.

this is not a question of how grave a sin premarital sex is but should a Catholic institution turn its back on someone just because they have sinned? and why is premartial sex being singled out? how many grave sins out there that teens could have committed? and time and again it has been pointed out here, why just punish the one who ended up pregnant? so are you telling me that premartial sex is the gavest of sins? what if the boys got caught in a bathroom pleasuring themselves off an adult magazine? Matt 5:28 “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” so should this boy also be expelled?

and again, you’re not sending the right message. you’re just telling the kids, “do whatever you do just don’t get caught.” and, “if you get caught, its over for you”. wrong message. eternal punishment happens at the end of our life, not during. if the Catholic school doesn’t teach these kids that they can reform their life for the better, who will? let the teens figure their lives by themselves? i’m sure they’re well equipped to do that

 

[Tosk]

No, on top of being against the law to expel a pregnant student it is impossible to enforce the rule fairly. I also really doubt that the presence of a pregnant belly will give any students cause for scandal. Maybe in the 40s or 50s you would have an argument but not in the world we live in. I have read stories about women’s colleges way back when expelling pregnant students regardless of whether they were married or not. They couldn’t have any women who had obviously had sex with a man inciting any sinful curiosity. But that is not the world we live in today.

 

[peregrinator_it]

I’ll step into the minefield and give my $.02 on this matter.

I’m not sure I can answer the title question, but here are my thoughts.

There are several intertwined concerns in this scenario.

It seems to me that if the girl in question is a minor, punishment for bad behavior or sin is primarily her parents’ concern (and responsibility- same goes for the punishment of the boy in question) and is not the concern of the school unless the bad behavior/sin took place on school grounds, caused the school to be source of scandal in the community, or put the school at risk of scandalizing its other students.

It is generally not within the purview of a school to punish sin or bad behavior in students except if it takes place during the time the school is specifically responsible for the student (or when the student is specifically associated with the school.) (Thus teachers don’t give students detention for disrespecting their parents or treating their siblings or friends badly, etc.)

I’d conclude punishment for the sin of premarital sex is not the school’s concern, but the parents’ (of both students) responsibility.

In dealing with the pregnant student, it seems to me that the school would want to avoid giving scandal in two ways:

First, a Catholic school cannot appear either in the community, or to its student body, as condoning premarital sex.

Certainly not all female students who have premarital sex become pregnant, and boys do not visibly carry evidence of their sin as girls must, but the fact of the matter is that this poor girl’s sin (and the boy who fathered the child) is now public and so must be addressed. The school cannot do nothing in this situation.

Secondly, however, in the present secular culture of death, a Catholic school must avoid spreading the false notion that pregnancy itself is what should be avoided (not premarital sex) and it must not provide further temptation to students who may be committing the same sin of premarital sex as the girl and boy in question, to committ the (much worse, I think) sin of abortion. The school must also (as far as it can without giving scandal otherwise) avoid indirectly promoting contraception, as well.

The school has an obligation to uphold the Church’s teaching that every human life has dignity and value, regardless of how it was conceived.

So, I think, if the school punishes the unwed female student by expelling her and does not punish the father of the child (even if it’s because he hasn’t been identified), it risks communicating to the student body that a) pregnancy in the punishable offence and b) that only girls are accountable in this situation (which perceived injustice may become an obstacle to other students’ faith.)

On the other hand, the school cannot do nothing and risk appearing to support premarital sex.

I think that the ideal solution would be to suspend both the boy and the girl in question for the duration of the pregnancy. They could do their schoolwork from home and have some time to reflect on the consequences of their bad actions.

Whether that ideal solution is practical is another question entirely.

I think trying to compare this situation to the situation of an unwed adult pair is not productive as adults are no longer under their parents’ authority etc.

 

[Tietjen]

I’ll step into the minefield and give my $.02 on this matter.

I’m not sure I can answer the title question, but here are my thoughts.

There are several intertwined concerns in this scenario.

It seems to me that if the girl in question is a minor, punishment for bad behavior or sin is primarily her parents’ concern (and responsibility- same goes for the punishment of the boy in question) and is not the concern of the school unless the bad behavior/sin took place on school grounds, caused the school to be source of scandal in the community, or put the school at risk of scandalizing its other students.

It is generally not within the purview of a school to punish sin or bad behavior in students except if it takes place during the time the school is specifically responsible for the student (or when the student is specifically associated with the school.) (Thus teachers don’t give students detention for disrespecting their parents or treating their siblings or friends badly, etc.)

I’d conclude punishment for the sin of premarital sex is not the school’s concern, but the parents’ (of both students) responsibility.

In dealing with the pregnant student, it seems to me that the school would want to avoid giving scandal in two ways:

First, a Catholic school cannot appear either in the community, or to its student body, as condoning premarital sex.

Certainly not all female students who have premarital sex become pregnant, and boys do not visibly carry evidence of their sin as girls must, but the fact of the matter is that this poor girl’s sin (and the boy who fathered the child) is now public and so must be addressed. The school cannot do nothing in this situation.

Secondly, however, in the present secular culture of death, a Catholic school must avoid spreading the false notion that pregnancy itself is what should be avoided (not premarital sex) and it must not provide further temptation to students who may be committing the same sin of premarital sex as the girl and boy in question, to committ the (much worse, I think) sin of abortion. The school must also (as far as it can without giving scandal otherwise) avoid indirectly promoting contraception, as well.

The school has an obligation to uphold the Church’s teaching that every human life has dignity and value, regardless of how it was conceived.

So, I think, if the school punishes the unwed female student by expelling her and does not punish the father of the child (even if it’s because he hasn’t been identified), it risks communicating to the student body that a) pregnancy in the punishable offence and b) that only girls are accountable in this situation (which perceived injustice may become an obstacle to other students’ faith.)

On the other hand, the school cannot do nothing and risk appearing to support premarital sex.

I think that the ideal solution would be to suspend both the boy and the girl in question for the duration of the pregnancy. They could do their schoolwork from home and have some time to reflect on the consequences of their bad actions.

Whether that ideal solution is practical is another question entirely.

I think trying to compare this situation to the situation of an unwed adult pair is not productive as adults are no longer under their parents’ authority etc.

Well thought out post and I can certainly agree with it in all but one instance; that being the last sentence. Schools (public & private) usually have standards for both their employees and the students to live up to. The fact that a Catholic School has stricter standards than say a public school is one of the things that draw MANY parents to placing their children in a Catholic school. If those standards are lowered to make accommodations for society and its beliefs, then I propose that the Catholic school will eventually become little better than a public school. Therefore, I will continue to believe that the school has EVERY right to expect more out of their students AND teachers than a public school does, and I find the comparison is very relevant. Still, as I said, I do like your post and possible solution to the hypothetical situation. But I would like to ask, what happens if the boy involved can’t be identified? That too has been a “stick in the side” as we have discussed this thread. Some feel that it would be unfair to take any action toward the girl. Should the school pretend that there isn’t a situation and bury its head in the sand? Should, as people here have suggested, extra efforts and attention be showered upon the girl? Or should the girl be suspended until such time as the birth of the baby (being allowed to continue her studies at home during the pregnancy)?

 

[Tietjen]

Ahh but sex outside of marriage isn’t what the girl is being expelled for, its for being pregnant. Being pregnant isn’t a sin.

Please go back and re-read my posts. Never did I suggest that the girl should be expelled for being pregnant and I am quite sure that a Catholic school would not be taking such an action for pregnancy itself. It is about how the pregnancy came about (pre-martial sex) that would be the immoral act. Just as when a cop arrests the guy with blue dye all over his hands, it’s not because of the crime of blue dye that he is being arrested, it’s because the blue dye indicates that he has come into contact with money which was stolen from the bank down the street and luckily the teller slipped the dye pack into the bag with the money during the robbery.

Do all the non-virgins get expelled?

If they are found to be participating in pre-martial sex and it becomes public knowledge and they are attending a good Catholic school… yes. And that goes for the boys as well.

 

[Tietjen]

A teacher is a rather different proposition. A teacher generally signs a contract which sets out the terms of employment. The teacher is an adult and able to be responsible for her actions in the way teenagers are not yet. A teacher has willingly taken on an extra responsibility to be an example and guide for young people - all teachers and people in authority bear an extra responsibility in such things.

So, a 16 or 17 year old girl is not accountable for sin?! You have to be 18 or older before you can be held responsible for your decision, actions, and inactions? Gottcha… see I never knew that. Let me ask you, do pre-adults then need to go to confession? What is the “age of reason” at the Church you attend? Also, on the contract issue. I had 3 kids I put through school. I remember on more than one occassion that not only did the students have to sign a “Code of Conduct” usually found in the student handbook, but so did the parents.

Sex outside of marriage is a sin, but not generally the worst one - it is a misdirection of an essentially good act. If you look at the list of the 7 deadly sins, it compares most to gluttony - not pride or wrath or envy.

Is it a mortal sin? Is it one of the 7 DEADLY (especially in todays society) SINS? Oh, but it wasn’t listed first so I suppose we can kind of brush it off right?

Sin in Christianity is relative - that is one of the great truths of Christianity.

I disagree, sin IS a moral evil. In the case of a mortal sin, there are 3 components:

1. Grave matter
2. Full advertence on the part of the intellect
3. Full consent on the part of the will.

Now we can go back and forth all day on the 2nd and 3rd components, because only God and the individual will know for sure what was in the person’s ability to understand and what their voluntary intentions were. However, I think that we can agree that in this case, pre-martial sex does fall in the category of Grave matter, can we not?

The same act in one circumstance by one person can have a much different character than by a different person in a different situation. Teens are often less culpable than an adult would be - their brains are not finished developing until age 18 - 21. Among the last things to develop are higher abstract reasoning abilities, and the ability to anticipate consequences. Both of these impact their ability to assess their own actions.

I’ll assume for a moment that you are correct in saying that a teen does not know right from wrong due, in part to their brain not having finished developing in that regard. How much more important is it that they are taught? If they really are that ignorant, how will they percieve the in-action of the very people who are supposed to be teaching them in regards to the situation that we are discussing? Or worse still, if those teachers, turn around and pay her extra-special attention and dote on her because of her condition? It would seem logical to me that a brain still trying to figure out consequences might be corrupted into believing that the consequences of pre-marital sex is a “cool” thing. So, might all the girl’s teenage friends who see special attention being paid to the “pregnant one.”

If you want people to listen to your arguments, you need to be more careful about your comparisons, and stop taking what they say out of context.

Two things… I have been fairly careful to include the quotes of the people that I have responded to. If the reader feels that I am taking something out of context, they have every right to ignore me or make a rebuttal, just as you have done.

Second, you assume that I care or expect whether or not people listen to what I have to say. The fact is, if that were to actually start to happen I wouldn’t know how to respond at all. Didn’t you read my profile… I have 3 kids. God bless.

 

[FAB]

Let those without sin cast the first stone. If we are to teach forgiveness and mercy, we must also be the first to practice it.
If we don’t we shouldn’t have a school or Church.

Peace,
FAB

 

[choy]

Tietjen, i don’t know why you are elevating teens to the level of adults. not that there are teens who are mature beyond their age, but those are a very small group. i assume that all us here are former teens who have gone through everything that teens go through. the two most important things for teens are first, to belong and to be accepted by their peers. and the second is to prove how grown up they are.

lets delve into the first. the desire to belong, on the surface doesn’t seem bad. we’re social beings and being with other people is what we desire to be. but acceptance is hard especially when people set up standards. thats where peer pressure comes in. i don’t know how much i have to explain this as i want to assume everyone past their teen years went thought it. one of the biggest pressures on teens is of course discovering their sexuallity. especially some would lead others to believe that losing their virginity is cool. another big influence of course is Hollywood, saying that sex is all about love and that if you love someone you should give yourself to them, with or without marriage.

second of course is teens proving they are grown up. they want to make their own decisions even though they are not as well informed as people who had the years of education and experience as adults. this is where teens start to become rebellious because they want to go against their parents’ better judgement just to prove that they can make their own decision. and how well informed are they with their decisions? given their lack of real life experience, they base it on their peers, some of whom have engaged in such activity and have gone through without consequence. now add this to peer pressure and plus a third factor called raging hormones.

now tell me, can teens make a very well informed decision with all these factors? there are of course who got through all these and i applaud them. it takes a lot not to succumb to social pressure and the “cool image” that many are lead to believe about sex. teens do have the capacity to determine good from evil, but not as well as adults.

now again, with expulsion, how does that add to the teens understanding or morality? if your teacher his you on your palm with a yardstick, it hurts but the pain goes away. but expulsion is a stigma and it will make you look bad in front of the peers that you have tried to win acceptance off. not only have you failed morally, but you’ve also failed as a social being. and this will have a lot of psychological effects on the person for years to come. it may even be a reason for suicide. or child abuse as the parent would blame the child for all the misfortunes of her life (expulsion being the primary).

being pregnant is already a big sign to the girl that her parents, her teachers, the Church as a whole, was correct in saying she should abstain. instead of punishment, i see this as the perfect time to install more lessons as this big wake-up call would make her more accepting to the princicples she either rejected or didn’t believe in 100%.

 

[Tietjen]

i applaud you, you know me very well just by reading some of my posts here.

Thank you. It’s what I do.

this is not a question of how grave a sin premarital sex is but should a Catholic institution turn its back on someone just because they have sinned? and why is premartial sex being singled out?

I don’t know, you are the one who set up the thread and gave it a title. Wanna start a new thread and this time include other sins… fine by me.

how many grave sins out there that teens could have committed? and time and again it has been pointed out here, why just punish the one who ended up pregnant?

Choy, please at least read my posts if you’re going to make an claim against them. I would support a Catholic school that punished the father too. I would also support a Catholic school that punished a girl and boy who were caught in the act behind the bleachers and the girl didn’t become pregnant.

so are you telling me that premartial sex is the gavest of sins?

No. Are you telling me that it isn’t? What I am saying is that it is grave matter and that the Catholic school should have the right to discipline up to and including expulsion.

what if the boys got caught in a bathroom pleasuring themselves off an adult magazine? Matt 5:28 “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” so should this boy also be expelled?

As I said, “What I am saying is that it is grave matter and that the Catholic school should have the right to discipline up to and including expulsion.”

and again, you’re not sending the right message. you’re just telling the kids, “do whatever you do just don’t get caught.” and, “if you get caught, its over for you”. wrong message.

I have never said that Choy. Take a deep breath for a moment and relax. You DO NOT teach discipline and morality by ignoring violations of same. Our you a parent Choy? If your child were to say a “bad word” would you hug him/her and tell him it’s okay? In my day you got soap in your mouth for speaking in a vile manner. To this day, I refrain from doing it because I learned my lesson when I was a youth. How much more important is it when we are talking about children engaging in sex?!

 

[peregrinator_it]

Well thought out post and I can certainly agree with it in all but one instance; that being the last sentence. Schools (public & private) usually have standards for both their employees and the students to live up to. The fact that a Catholic School has stricter standards than say a public school is one of the things that draw MANY parents to placing their children in a Catholic school. If those standards are lowered to make accommodations for society and its beliefs, then I propose that the Catholic school will eventually become little better than a public school. Therefore, I will continue to believe that the school has EVERY right to expect more out of their students AND teachers than a public school does, and I find the comparison is very relevant.

Thanks for the complement.

Having taught for some years, I can tell you that being suspended for giving scandal (and the scandal is all a Catholic school has any business addressing, IMO, provided the students’ were not engaged in the sinful behavior on school grounds or during school hours (in which case I’d be entirely in favor of expulsion on the spot for both)) is a much higher standard than any public school has.

Still there is a difference between children who are still in the care of their parents and adults.

As grown persons with God-given free will, unless we willingly submit ourselves to another authority (and give that authority the right to punish us in this life), we are no longer subject to discipline or punishment except by God. And heaven knows God will punish us for our sins. But the choice to put ourselves in the way of further penalty for wrongdoing is ours.

Minor children do not have that choice and are the solemn and paramount responsibility of their parents. The parents may place some authority in the hands of the school, but it is necessarily limited and the school cannot interfere and has no business in the moral formation of children outside of its limited authority.

But I would like to ask, what happens if the boy involved can’t be identified? SNIP Should the school pretend that there isn’t a situation and bury its head in the sand? Should, as people here have suggested, extra efforts and attention be showered upon the girl? Or should the girl be suspended until such time as the birth of the baby (being allowed to continue her studies at home during the pregnancy)?

That’s tough. I suppose I would spring for the “suspended 'til birth” option, provided the school made it very clear that the danger of scandal (in the sin sense) was the issue- not the pregnancy.

I’ll be honest though, I would not place a child of mine, especially a son in a school that seemed to punish the girl alone. I would not want him to learn that he could escape the consequences of his actions simply because he is male and willing to let some poor girl “take the fall.” Male irresponsibility is as much a cause of the current lax sexual morals as female irresponsibility.

 

[Jacafamala]

a private school can do as it sees fit.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

A Catholic school with only saints in it. Good luck putting that together.

 

[choy]

Thank you. It’s what I do.

I don’t know, you are the one who set up the thread and gave it a title. Wanna start a new thread and this time include other sins… fine by me.

read the first post and know why the thread title is as is

Choy, please at least read my posts if you’re going to make an claim against them. I would support a Catholic school that punished the father too. I would also support a Catholic school that punished a girl and boy who were caught in the act behind the bleachers and the girl didn’t become pregnant.

if i was making a claim against your post i would have quoted them. i’m making a statement based on where the entire conversation is at the point

No. Are you telling me that it isn’t? What I am saying is that it is grave matter and that the Catholic school should have the right to discipline up to and including expulsion.

i am not against the school taking disciplinary action. but not any disciplinary action is acceptable. even God knows that severe disciplinary action is not warranted all the time. remember Noah?

As I said, “What I am saying is that it is grave matter and that the Catholic school should have the right to discipline up to and including expulsion.”

I have never said that Choy. Take a deep breath for a moment and relax. You DO NOT teach discipline and morality by ignoring violations of same. Our you a parent Choy? If your child were to say a “bad word” would you hug him/her and tell him it’s okay? In my day you got soap in your mouth for speaking in a vile manner. To this day, I refrain from doing it because I learned my lesson when I was a youth. How much more important is it when we are talking about children engaging in sex?!

and i suppose your method, base on how you side on explusion, is to spank children silly until they comply? you only see the matter as black or white. either they get expelled or not punished at all. what i see is the entire spectrum of colors in the middle. there is a right amount of punishment but at the same time take this as an opportunity. how was your teen years? rosy probably. perhaps thats why you never see the viewpoint of other people who are more in the average of what is happening today. perhaps you never lived in a home that was over disciplined to the point that you resent your parents and any authority that would enforce a harsh punishment on you. did you? i did. thats why i know expulsion won’t work.

if you never experienced these realities of life, then Praise and Thank God for the wonderful blessing you have received. really, i mean it from the bottom of my heart. while for me it helped transform me to a better person, i’ve seen too many other people who just become even more lost.

 

[Tietjen]

Let those without sin cast the first stone.

Do you think that the Bible is saying that no one (since all have sinned) has the right to be critical of sinful acts of another? I don’t think so. Imagine, if you will society doing that. There would be no need for a court system; no law enforcement; and parents would be allowing their children to hang out with drug dealers on street corners. Nah, we are indeed supposed to judge the actions of our Christian brothers and sisters and hold one another accountable before God. If I am committing mortal sin, and someone knows about it, I hope that they will be Christian enough to grab me up and straighten me out. My soul may very well depend on it.

If we are to teach forgiveness and mercy, we must also be the first to practice it.
If we don’t we shouldn’t have a school or Church.

Of course we should practice forgiveness and mercy. First, being forgiven does not mean that consequences are suspended. If young Billy drives his father’s car into the mailbox, his father may well forgive him, but young Billy may still be expected to replace the mailbox and pay for any damage to the car. As for mercy… how merciful is it to teach teenagers that there are no consequences for pre-marital sex? If the teens are not held accountable for their decisions and actions, what do you think they will learn?