Is it right (or within the rights) of Catholic schools to expell unwed mothers?

[choy]

Yes, I too agree that it would be a “touchy” situation. However, I will stand on the side that says yes, a Catholic school has the right to require their students to live a moral life and should those students choose to do otherwise, the school can ask them to leave. Why? Because 60-70 years ago, being unwed and pregnant was looked at as wrong and a source of embarrassment. Of course it happened, but not at the rate it does today. Now, it’s usually seen as not being a big deal.

agreed but if the Catholic school wishes to punish immorality, they shouldn’t limit it to unwed mothers. all immorality by both genders should be punished.

i totally agree with promoting pre-marital abstinence. but expelling students only makes more problems and does not solve anything. i think the Chruch should help and educate further and make the girl/lady know her mistake and correct it. clearly she had the wrong set of morals which got her into that situation and expelling her from a Catholic institution will not correct that. she’ll land in a secular school and will never be taught the right things and will move further and further away from the Church.

The government even pays you money if you are an unwed mother and don’t earn a high enough wage.

unfortunately this isn’t the case in a third-world country like the Philippines, where the government just takes and never gives

I’m sorry (especially for the children of these mothers) but there needs to be consequences for inappropriate behavior. If that means that a girl (or boy if it becomes known) conceives a baby outside of marriage, at the very least they should be asked to leave the Catholic school and complete their education at the local public high school. When I went to Catholic school, you could be suspended or even expelled for fighting, stealing, lying, etc. How much more serious is this? If you would be in favor of expelling a student because he gets into several fights (he sins) why would engaging in sex outside of marriage be considered less of an offense? Besides, the money that was being used to fund the parochial education needs to be saved and applied toward the new baby that is expected. Just my :twocents:. God bless all.

private education in the Philippines is almost a necessity as public schools are usually underfunded and overcrowded, resulting in poor eductation. if a highschool teen gets expelled from a private highschool, this would almost certainly mean the end of their professional aspirations.

but do you get expelled for fighting right off the bat? in my Catholic highschool, yes you get penalties for such conduct but you don’t get expelled for fighting, unless of course you cause serious injury or even use a deadly weapon. but the school also aims to rehabilitate you and take that voilent mentallity off of you. the same should be done for unwed mothers. okay, you got pregnant, there’s no turning back. but lets set your morals straight so the from here on, you’ll make the correct decision.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

so its okay if a private school doesn’t accept students based on race?

Race is a protected class so most likely no, except there are colleges that only accept women.

Sinner is not a protected class.

There is also the case of the Boy Scouts of America, which the Supreme Court upheld their policy to not hire and to fire homosexuals, as the BSA is a private institution.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

One must also know that those who chose to attend schools with a rule like this would know of the rule, it would not be some secret. By attending the school they agree to follow the rules of the school. If they do not wish to follow all the rules then they should not attend.

 

[caoindealbhan]

Catholic Schools are private institutions. They do not owe enrollment to anyone. An unwed mother can be asked to leave and it would be within the rights of the private Catholic institution.

 

[cascabel]

Hello all,

Please forgive me if I overstep my bounds on this topic, I dont desire to upset anyone. I must however say this discussion is very troubling to me. I didnt grow up in Catholic schools, I just came into the Church( Thanks be to God) this year. However, I must say I would be sickened if a child were expelled because he or she made a mistake, even a serious one such as becoming pregnant. Admonished yes, expelled no. Nor would I think that withholding earned awards or achievements from someone would be acceptable. Wheres the love? “I desire mercy, not sacrifice” comes to my mind here. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” does as well. I’m not in any way saying that sin should be condoned, it shouldnt, but I dont think turning on a young woman when she needs her Christian brothers and sisters the most is the answer either. Jesus came for the sinner, not the righteous, this is the beauty that drew me to the Lord and his Church and I would pray that it would be this same beauty what would be shown a young person in a time of personal trial. May Christ have mercy on us all and make us instruments of his will.
Tom

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Hello all,

Please forgive me if I overstep my bounds on this topic, I dont desire to upset anyone. I must however say this discussion is very troubling to me. I didnt grow up in Catholic schools, I just came into the Church( Thanks be to God) this year. However, I must say I would be sickened if a child were expelled because he or she made a mistake, even a serious one such as becoming pregnant. Admonished yes, expelled no. Nor would I think that withholding earned awards or achievements from someone would be acceptable. Wheres the love? “I desire mercy, not sacrifice” comes to my mind here. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” does as well. I’m not in any way saying that sin should be condoned, it shouldnt, but I dont think turning on a young woman when she needs her Christian brothers and sisters the most is the answer either. Jesus came for the sinner, not the righteous, this is the beauty that drew me to the Lord and his Church and I would pray that it would be this same beauty what would be shown a young person in a time of personal trial. May Christ have mercy on us all and make us instruments of his will.

                                                                                                         Tom

Tom, I agree with you on the expelling them but let me ask you this, where is the love if there are no consequences for their actions? A person should not be in a position of leadership or honor when they have committed a grave public sin and/or caused scandal.

I do not believe that they should be kicked out but they should not be allowed to receive special things either.

There are consequences for our actions and those must be paid.

 

[cascabel]

Tom, I agree with you on the expelling them but let me ask you this, where is the love if there are no consequences for their actions? A person should not be in a position of leadership or honor when they have committed a grave public sin and/or caused scandal.

I do not believe that they should be kicked out but they should not be allowed to receive special things either.

There are consequences for our actions and those must be paid.

Of course Brother, their must be consequences. Like I said, some type of admonishment is critical otherwise the behavior may not change due to ones not understanding that what they did was wrong. However it must be done with love and mercy, the same way in which we ask the Father to have for us when we stray from righteousness. As far as a person not being in a leadership position if they commit a grave sin, I must disagree again. I am not sinless and I am not naive enough to think my leaders are either. If a person commits a sin, takes responsibility, and asks Gods forgiveness then who am I to judge.
Sometimes in life it is those who have made mistakes that become the best leaders because they can steer others away from making the same mistake. Nothing special should be given as a reward for sin. But preexisting awards and achievements shouldnt be taken away.
And yes, we will have to pay our debts, to God.

                                                                                                            Tom

Please forgive me for not responding to to each quote, I am a computer idiot.

 

[caoindealbhan]

A school is an arena with social dynamism involving the young and impressionable. Pregnancy is very obvious and at times will bring much attention to the becoming mother. Other children become jealous and want that kind of attention. I am sorry if this sounds cruel, but I think her punishment is to receive tutoring at home, where she will not be the center of attention until she gives birth. Once this occurs she may return to the school. We don’t want other young girls seeking inappropriate attention in inappropriate ways.

 

[Tietjen]

Agreed. The message given is …we feel for you, but we just can’t quite reach…talk about being ostracized & abandoned! Just when caring & support is needed the most. This old prevailing attitude-ostracizing unwed mothers is one of the reasons abortion has been propelled in our society…because those who provide abortions come across as caring & compassionate.

That is not accurate. If it were so, there would be less abortions today than there were in the past. Sorry all… it is not politically correct nor does it sound charitable; however, if there are not harsh consequences, teenagers simply won’t care. Look at society today. Look back at society 70 years ago. Do you see a difference? Reading some of your posts, I get the impression that there are those here who would excuse just about any immoral act for the sake of being politically correct or not wanting to make a CHILD mad by imposing consequences for inappropriate behavior. I am all for helping the teen and her new baby, but perhaps I’m just not as allowing as many of today’s Catholics. God bless.

 

[Tietjen]

so its okay if a private school doesn’t accept students based on race?

Choy, I understand that you have your opinion about this situation, but please don’t try to win the argument by making ridiculous comparisons. It makes you look rather silly. God bless.

 

[Tietjen]

Would you please post a link to a site that names or explains this program? I work with the needy, and would find this type of program to be of help to some very needy moms.

They don’t have WIC and food stamp programs (which are based on the size of the household as compared with the income) in Arkansas? I find that hard to believe.

 

[Bluegoat]

Whether someone has the right to do something and should they do it are two seperate questions, as all Catholics should realize. Because something is legal doesn’t mean it is the right thing to do.

As a Christian, I think an education is something we should offer to all people. That includes religious education, habit forming, help deciding on a life direction, as well as the three Rs. So because someone does something really stupid that should be taken away? If anything, it needs to be offered even more.

I can see all kinds of ways this girl is already going to have consequences, since she is pregnant. Clearly there are people that need to have long talks with her to figure out just what the problem is - there are lots of reasons girls get into such situations - and to remedy it. And things like taking away of leadership positions seems reasonable and appropriate.

But expulsion seems like the least appropriate thing I can think of.

It might also be worthwhile for them to make sure that this girl isn’t just “the one who got caught.” They might have a larger problem, and if so it is likely due to some deficiency on their part.

 

[Tietjen]

agreed but if the Catholic school wishes to punish immorality, they shouldn’t limit it to unwed mothers. all immorality by both genders should be punished.

I agree with you and if the boy involved can be identified, he too should face the same consequences. However, here is my problem with this line of thinking… Let’s say for instance that there are two bank robbers who rob a bank. During the robbery, one of the bank robbers looses his mask. During the investigation, the unmasked robber is identified but the DA won’t file charges because the second (masked) robber remains unknown. Do you see how silly that sounds?

i totally agree with promoting pre-marital abstinence. but expelling students only makes more problems and does not solve anything. i think the Chruch should help and educate further and make the girl/lady know her mistake and correct it.

First, at this point she cannot go back and correct it. However, if she is forced to suffer the consequences (the expulsion) she very well may not make the same mistake in the future. That is how kids learn. Lecturing them doesn’t work.

clearly she had the wrong set of morals which got her into that situation and expelling her from a Catholic institution will not correct that. she’ll land in a secular school and will never be taught the right things and will move further and further away from the Church.

You are assuming that she did not know right from wrong and likewise assuming that by removing her from the Catholic school, she will not be able to learn right from wrong. I submit to you that teens are NOT that stupid. She does in fact know that sex outside of marriage is wrong and that she should not engage in it. However, like many adults too, she simply did not care because it is something that she wanted to do. If you do not put any consequences on her actions, you are basically saying, “Don’t do that or else I’ll tell you again not to do that.” That type of thinking when dealing with teens does not work.

 

[Tietjen]

…it is likely due to some deficiency on their part.

Blame the school for the girl choosing to engage in sex outside of marriage… interesting way to deal with the problem.

 

[Tietjen]

So no Catholic girl can ever be the victim of rape? That’s interesting, I didn’t know that.

Try to keep up. We’re talking about girls and boys participating in sex outside of marriage.

What if she claims to be the victim but there’s no proof? Will she be excluded then?

If she claims to be a victim of a crime then I would assume that the police are investigating the matter and more information will be forth coming. If she is a victim, of course the school would not expell her.

Would the school rather a pregnant girl had an abortion, to save the reputation of the school?

Of course not, but should all morality be held hostage by the possibility that the girl in question might further sin by having an abortion?

I wouldn’t want any daughter of mine to go to a so-called Catholic school that had such a policy, to be honest.

Yeah, having a moral clause (in the student handbook or an employee’s contract) is such a downer. Who needs morals anyway? LOL

I knew when I responded to this thread that I would find many Catholics who did not support the same view I had. I hope that I have not been too sarcastic nor do I want to come off as insulting. I know that my opinion is considered outdate and no longer popular in today’s society and I can live with that. Thankfully, my children are no longer in high school so I no longer have to worry about this specific situation. To those parents who are yet to have teens, I wish you the very best, and may God bless you and your children. Peace all and God bless.

 

[RobbyS]

I understand the problem of having an unmarried student who is pregnant.

The other side is that if the pregnant student had an abortion, no one would know and she would be allowed to stay in school. Would the threat of expulsion influence a girl to have an abortion rather than give birth?

It’s a bad situation no matter what.

And what about the fathers?

Well, it would help if society–even Catholic society–gave better guidance, so that the rules of the school would reflect its opinion rather than be exercises in sophistry. Once upon a time a pregnant girl would want to leave school because she no longer fit. For one thing, the school would be an all-girl school, and there would be no father there to point up the injustice of the situation. But we have all decided to muddy the waters and pretend that we can repair what has been broken just by pretending it does not matter.

 

[maryannroxas]

Tientjen, thank you for your views. Re joining this thread, I prayed for courage and eloquence and then there was you

 

[Seamus_L]

Of course a Catholic school is within it’s right to expel unwed mothers. And let’s put this in it’s proper perspective. We are not talking about turning someone out to die in the cold cruel world here, but rather enforcing standards of morality in a school.

 

[Tietjen]

Hello all,

Please forgive me if I overstep my bounds on this topic, I dont desire to upset anyone. I must however say this discussion is very troubling to me. I didnt grow up in Catholic schools, I just came into the Church( Thanks be to God) this year. However, I must say I would be sickened if a child were expelled because he or she made a mistake, even a serious one such as becoming pregnant.

If a serious and grievous act such as sex outside of marriage is not bad enough to warrant expulsion, what would be? Stealing, fighting, what act is so serious, so life altering, so important, that it surpasses this? Maybe abortion? Would the school then have grounds to expel the young woman? Where and when is expulsion to be used? Help me to understand how not holding a person (even a teen) accountable for their actions is a good thing.

Admonished yes, expelled no.

By admonish do you mean “speak sternly” to her? Certainly you’re not talking about corporal punishment. Hmmm… what else could a school do? Detention? How many days do you give a girl who participates in sex outside of marriage? When I was a kid, fighting got me 3 days detention.

Nor would I think that withholding earned awards or achievements from someone would be acceptable. Wheres the love?

That is exactly what I was thinking as I read your reply. Where is the love? Why would you expect a teenager to set her own boundaries and allow her to be the sole authority on what is and is not moral? If you say that you would “admonish” her, to me, that is like saying, “don’t do that or I’ll say don’t do that again.” It makes no sense and teens will not respect it. God has given us consequences for sin. Are we more loving than God if we choose to withhold consequence for our children? I would put it to you that it is BECAUSE we love our children that we give them consequences for inappropriate/immoral behavior.

“I desire mercy, not sacrifice” comes to my mind here. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” does as well.

Hebrews 12:6-9:

For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?

God disciplines AND loves just as parents and even a Catholic high school can do. I do not understand how you can equate that if someone (maybe God too) punishes another human being it means that the punisher does not love the punished. My view is completely opposite. The parents that make excuses for their children’s bad behavior or just don’t get involved in their children’s lives are the ones that lack love… NOT the parents or, in this case, the school that requires moral standards be met.

I’m not in any way saying that sin should be condoned, it shouldnt, but I dont think turning on a young woman when she needs her Christian brothers and sisters the most is the answer either.

She is not being expelled from the Church. No one is suggesting that she be excommunicated or shunned. The Church and organizations such as Catholic Charities are still there for her and will help her and her parents get through this very difficult time.

Jesus came for the sinner, not the righteous,

Jesus came for everyone because NONE are righteous.

this is the beauty that drew me to the Lord and his Church and I would pray that it would be this same beauty what would be shown a young person in a time of personal trial.

Does God punish us for sins we commit even though Christ died on the Cross for those sins? Is there such a thing as “temporal punishment?” Does God hold us accountable for our actions? Does what we do or don’t do in this life matter? See, I know what the answer to these questions would be if I were speaking to a Pentecostal Protestant. “Jesus dying on the cross washed away all our sins”, “Christ died in our place so there is no payment left to pay on sin”, “There is no temporal punishment” etc. It’s not that simple however. The fact is that we are held accountable for what we do in this life. If a school can find a “teachable moment” in the mist of a tragic situation such as this, I believe that they are obligated to do so. Holding the young woman accountable demonstrates the seriousness of the situation both to the young woman involved and those who are simply classmates of the young woman.

May Christ have mercy on us all and make us instruments of his will.

Amen.

 

[TC2]

So if one/some of the students were caught stealing, or lying, or cheating, or spray painting someone’s house, they would need to be expelled also?

The first time the sin/crime was discovered, correct?
Just as the pregnant girls would be, right?

Seems like there’d be a lot of empty schools if this were followed ‘correctly’.