Is it sinful to vote for Bernie Sanders?

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Mort_Alz

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Let me get my complaints about him out of the way first.

He’s politically pro-choice. Annoyingly so since, to get enough voters to make a difference he has to appeal to the culture of death on that issue. I’m kind of concerned about how he will approach law enforcement in America. There is talk about the demilitarization of the police, which, in the face of increasing domestic terrorism is a silly idea. Disarming your own force and disarming the people is a grave matter in my opinion.

On the other hand, abortion and gay marriage are losing battles for Catholics on the political field. To be honest, I don’t know why we’re still fighting those battles on a political level. That being said, Bernie Sanders is very Christlike on some more pressing matters. I say more pressing in the sense that a favorable outcome can actually be achieved. He, like Christ, gets a sort of righteous anger at the fact that healthcare is run like a business which only gives good care to the rich. He says healthcare is kind of like the right to life. I think he’s right. And, that is consistent with our Catholic view of abortion.

On to my question. I think Bernie Sanders is one of he most sincere candidates. That exhibits the virtue of honesty. I like his Christlike quality of being angered at injustice, too. I want to vote for him. My reasoning for thinking I can vote for him without sinning despite his view on abortion is that we can only take what we can. It is similar to the just war doctrine. A war might be just, but if there is no chance of winning the war, then it would be unjust to wage it. You’d just be wasting the lives of your own troops. So it is on issues like abortion and gay marriage. We aren’t going to win a Catholic view in politics. It’s just not going to happen. But Bernie Sanders seems to be the only one who is Christlike on issues of healthcare and education. Any thoughts?
 
I’d rather lose than help someone get elected that thinks killing innocent babies is a right. Also, how is it Christian for the government to take people’s money and distribute it how they think fit. I thought Christians are to voluntarily give to those in need.
 
Mort_Alz said:
Let me get my complaints about him out of the way first.

He’s politically pro-choice. Annoyingly so since, to get enough voters to make a difference he has to appeal to the culture of death on that issue. I’m kind of concerned about how he will approach law enforcement in America. There is talk about the demilitarization of the police, which, in the face of increasing domestic terrorism is a silly idea. Disarming your own force and disarming the people is a grave matter in my opinion.

On the other hand, abortion and gay marriage are losing battles for Catholics on the political field. To be honest, I don’t know why we’re still fighting those battles on a political level. That being said, Bernie Sanders is very Christlike on some more pressing matters. I say more pressing in the sense that a favorable outcome can actually be achieved. He, like Christ, gets a sort of righteous anger at the fact that healthcare is run like a business which only gives good care to the rich. He says healthcare is kind of like the right to life. I think he’s right. And, that is consistent with our Catholic view of abortion.

On to my question. I think Bernie Sanders is one of he most sincere candidates. That exhibits the virtue of honesty. I like his Christlike quality of being angered at injustice, too. I want to vote for him. My reasoning for thinking I can vote for him without sinning despite his view on abortion is that we can only take what we can. It is similar to the just war doctrine. A war might be just, but if there is no chance of winning the war, then it would be unjust to wage it. You’d just be wasting the lives of your own troops. So it is on issues like abortion and gay marriage. We aren’t going to win a Catholic view in politics. It’s just not going to happen. But Bernie Sanders seems to be the only one who is Christlike on issues of healthcare and education. Any thoughts?
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By all means, vote for whom your conscience dictates, however, to assert something such as no political gains have been made against abortion I find faulty; there are states with only one abortion clinic in the whole state such as Missouri, these are because of political battles. Planned Parenthood who get a half a million dollars in Federal (taxpayer’s) monies yearly has been defunded in a number of states.

So, by all means, vote how one’s conscience dictates but again, if one is going to rely on the “there is no progress in this battle anyway”, this dictum should be analyzed.
 
I think it is entirely up to you how you explain to the Lord why you voted for a man who supports the killing of innocents. I have enough on my own plate to take up another battle of that magnitude before the faces of the children aborted who look on the face of God, much less their angels. But by all means vote for a pro-abortionist who would have the power to continue the legal damage to the pro-life movement that the present American administration maintains. How do you explain that you gave up the battle because you doubted His power to overcome evil eventually. What social justice outweighs the life of one child? Just some things to ponder, but entirely up to your conscience.
 
There is a lot of ignorance of actual Church teaching here.

It is not a grave sin to vote for someone who supports abortion. You can vote for someone who supports abortion if in good conscience you believe they will do good in other areas and believe that the good they do is more important than the harm they do.

An example is abolishing the death penalty. Sanders is in favor of abortion but is the only candidate who supports abolishing the death penalty. The death penalty is also part of the culture of death. If you ascribe to not voting for anyone who supports the culture of death then you can’t vote for anyone.

To the OP, “Good healthcare only goes to the rich” is just a silly statement.

-Tim-
 
10gr8kids said:
I’d rather lose than help someone get elected that thinks killing innocent babies is a right. Also, how is it Christian for the government to take people’s money and distribute it how they think fit. I thought Christians are to voluntarily give to those in need.
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How is it Christian to charge people money for healthcare? I’ll save your life… if you pay me well enough.

I’m pretty sure taxes are a necessary part of every government.
 
TimothyH said:
There is a lot of ignorance of actual Church teaching here.

It is not a grave sin to vote for someone who supports abortion. You can vote for someone who supports abortion if in good conscience you believe they will do good in other areas and believe that the good they do is more important than the harm they do.

An example is abolishing the death penalty. Sanders is in favor of abortion but is the only candidate who supports abolishing the death penalty. The death penalty is also part of the culture of death. If you ascribe to not voting for anyone who supports the culture of death then you can’t vote for anyone.

To the OP, “Good healthcare only goes to the rich” is just a silly statement.

-Tim-
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Regarding the misunderstanding of Church teaching. Perhaps you could provide me a source?

I agree, the death penalty is part of the culture of death. My rationale right now is that Sanders would do more good than harm because even if an anti-abortion president got elected, he or she couldn’t/wouldn’t do much about it anyway.

“…is a silly statement.”

I apologize, but I think you’re drawing more from it than I implied. Of course it doesn’t work that way in practice. Just in some areas. Having been poor myself I can tell you that I have foregone treatment that has resulted in bigger problems simply because I couldn’t afford it. Even with insurance. Charging money for healthcare is grossly immoral. I doubt the original Christian hospitals charged their patients denari.
 
TimothyH said:
An example is abolishing the death penalty. Sanders is in favor of abortion but is the only candidate who supports abolishing the death penalty. The death penalty is also part of the culture of death. If you ascribe to not voting for anyone who supports the culture of death then you can’t vote for anyone.

To the OP, “Good healthcare only goes to the rich” is just a silly statement.

-Tim-
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One cannot compare abortion - which is intrinsically grave evil with the death penalty which is not. The death penalty is not per se from the “culture of death” though one couls argue that the misuse of it is.

Yes we ought to seek to eliminate the death penalty - for the need for such is very rare these days.

But it is not something that can be compared to the Millions who die from Abortion.
 
Mr. Sanders not only supports the abortion of innocent children but wants to use the force of government to force all Americans to pay for such murders. Can a Christian vote for such a policy? The answer should be obvious.
 
The simple fact alone that the next President can likely choose 3 new Justices for the Supreme Court is sufficient reason to say - do not even think about it (though it is not the only reason!!)
 
Path_Finder said:
By all means, vote for whom your conscience dictates, however, to assert something such as no political gains have been made against abortion I find faulty; there are states with only one abortion clinic in the whole state such as Missouri, these are because of political battles. Planned Parenthood who get a half a million dollars in Federal (taxpayer’s) monies yearly has been defunded in a number of states.

So, by all means, vote how one’s conscience dictates but again, if one is going to rely on the “there is no progress in this battle anyway”, this dictum should be analyzed.
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Winning a few battles is far from knowing you can win the whole war. That is the prerogative for a just war to be justly waged. You have to know there is a higher likelihood of success for the whole war to won. Not just a few battles. If you can win a few battles but will unlikely win the whole war, it cannot be justly waged.
 
I used the same arguments when I voted for Obama in 2008 and was duped. In trying to ignore the bad in hopes of some good, I was partially responsible for much worse than I could ever imagine.

What have I seen with regard to healthcare? My insurance premiums have gone up about 85% and my coverage has gone down. 6 years ago about 90-95% of our cost of having a baby was covered by insurance. This year it was closer to 45-50%. We paid nearly 6x more with this baby, despite the fact that inflation was maybe 10-12% over that time. So why the increase? Because Obamacare (aka the un-Affordable Care Act) was written by insurance companies. So Sanders bemoans that healthcare is ran as a business, yet he supported one of the largest healthcare business give aways in history.

While his stand on education sounds good in practice, it does nothing to lower tuition costs, but rather shifts the cost from students to the government. So again the business aspect of education isn’t changed, but who pays for it is. They fact that he also opposed any limits on the federal government being able to mandate dreck like common core is also problematic to me. It speaks to bureaucratic control in areas that should be handled at a local level.

Even dismissing, the morality of giving up when you feel you can’t win, I don’t see how he will change anything for the better. I bought into the Obama Hope and all it has brought is disparity and ruin.

Don’t get me wrong. I beleive there is a place for government to provide assistance, but the difference between liberals and conservatives is what assistance involves. Let me provide a story to illustrate the difference.

A conservative and liberal are talking about rock climbing and helping others learn to climb. The conservative puts together a packet on moderate priced gear to buy and offers to lead climb, choosing easier routes. At the end of 3 months most of his students have made progress even of not all of them can make it to the top yet.

Meanwhile the liberal hires a construction company to bast off the overhangs and to build an elevator from the base to the summit. To finance it he set up a toll on the main road and changes everyone $5 to use the road. At the end of 3 months half of the mountain is distorted and instead of an elevator he has ropes and a pulley that he uses to pull people to the top.

When they compare notes at the end of the 3 months, the liberal talks about the great success he had. All 5 people who clipped into the rope had made it to the top. He chides the conservative that only 1% of the 100 people he worked with made it to the top. What is left out is that the 5 the liberal got to the top could not get there again without more money to run the winch.

My whole point is, is it really Christ like to say we can’t win so don’t fight, but we can get short term gains without fixing the underlying problems?
 
3 Supreme Court Justices badly chosen will mean greater darkness will settle in our land for decades to come…

…such more towards conceding the war than about single battles…
 
Bookcat said:
3 Supreme Court Justices badly chosen will mean greater darkness will settle in our land for decades to come…

…such more towards conceding the war than about single battles…
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That’s certainly another thing to consider. It’s not about “winning” one or two issues, but the long term damage another 8 years of liberal policies will have.
 
Mort_Alz said:
How is it Christian to charge people money for healthcare? I’ll save your life… if you pay me well enough.
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Is it also unchristian to charge people for food, water, shelter, clothing?

Food, water, shelter, clothing, heath care is all produced by someone and those people are entitled to the fruits of their labors.
 
oliver927 said:
Is it also unchristian to charge people for food, water, shelter, clothing?

Food, water, shelter, clothing, heath care is all produced by someone and those people are entitled to the fruits of their labors.
Click to expand...
Healthcare is different. When hospitals were purely Christian, patients didn’t pay a dime. The fact that food, water, etc. are paid for is a red herring.
 
Usige said:
I used the same arguments when I voted for Obama in 2008 and was duped. In trying to ignore the bad in hopes of some good, I was partially responsible for much worse than I could ever imagine.

What have I seen with regard to healthcare? My insurance premiums have gone up about 85% and my coverage has gone down. 6 years ago about 90-95% of our cost of having a baby was covered by insurance. This year it was closer to 45-50%. We paid nearly 6x more with this baby, despite the fact that inflation was maybe 10-12% over that time. So why the increase? Because Obamacare (aka the un-Affordable Care Act) was written by insurance companies. So Sanders bemoans that healthcare is ran as a business, yet he supported one of the largest healthcare business give aways in history.

While his stand on education sounds good in practice, it does nothing to lower tuition costs, but rather shifts the cost from students to the government. So again the business aspect of education isn’t changed, but who pays for it is. They fact that he also opposed any limits on the federal government being able to mandate dreck like common core is also problematic to me. It speaks to bureaucratic control in areas that should be handled at a local level.

Even dismissing, the morality of giving up when you feel you can’t win, I don’t see how he will change anything for the better. I bought into the Obama Hope and all it has brought is disparity and ruin.

Don’t get me wrong. I beleive there is a place for government to provide assistance, but the difference between liberals and conservatives is what assistance involves. Let me provide a story to illustrate the difference.

A conservative and liberal are talking about rock climbing and helping others learn to climb. The conservative puts together a packet on moderate priced gear to buy and offers to lead climb, choosing easier routes. At the end of 3 months most of his students have made progress even of not all of them can make it to the top yet.

Meanwhile the liberal hires a construction company to bast off the overhangs and to build an elevator from the base to the summit. To finance it he set up a toll on the main road and changes everyone $5 to use the road. At the end of 3 months half of the mountain is distorted and instead of an elevator he has ropes and a pulley that he uses to pull people to the top.

When they compare notes at the end of the 3 months, the liberal talks about the great success he had. All 5 people who clipped into the rope had made it to the top. He chides the conservative that only 1% of the 100 people he worked with made it to the top. What is left out is that the 5 the liberal got to the top could not get there again without more money to run the winch.

My whole point is, is it really Christ like to say we can’t win so don’t fight, but we can get short term gains without fixing the underlying problems?
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You’re acting like Sanders’ healthcare ambitions are to just leave Obamacare as is with all of its terrible faults. Last I heard from Sanders is that he plans to go about fixing those faults.

Also, I don’t mean to pry, but were you able to take care of the additional costs? Did you need to ultimately get government assistance or did you rely on friends?
 
Mort_Alz said:
How is it Christian to charge people money for healthcare? I’ll save your life… if you pay me well enough.

I’m pretty sure taxes are a necessary part of every government.
Click to expand...
Did I say it was? Is it Christian to charge people for food? You can eat as long as you pay enough. What about electricity, water, transportation? I haven’t been to the doctor in over 20 years except for my pregnancies. Most people spend more on their pets health than I do my health. It is a constant struggle for us to provide the neccisities for our family.
I still believe an unborn child’s right to life is more important than the govt. taking money from others to give to me. For one thing, the government is great at wasting what isn’t theirs. And I still believe that the Christian principle is for those who have and see a need, to be the ones to give.
If the government wasn’t corrupt and inept, if they upheld the dignity of ALL life, then I might be in favor of a more liberal tax system. Until then I will vote pro-life.
 
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