Is it sinful to vote for Bernie Sanders?

[Intransivert]

How is it Christian to charge people money for healthcare? I’ll save your life… if you pay me well enough.

I’m pretty sure taxes are a necessary part of every government.

1. Since when does Christianity have anything to do with getting something for free?
2. When is someone who is severely injured or near death EVER turned away from good health care in this country? Advanced or long-term treatments may not be available to everyone who is uninsured, and that’s a problem worth talking about. But this nonsense about peoples’ lives not being saved for lack of money is just hyperbole.
3. Taxes are a necessary part of government, true. Why is it that a hundred years ago taxes were drastically lower? Were we not Christian enough then? Can you measure the quality a nation’s faith by it’s level of taxation? Sweden, Denmark, and The Netherlands must be much more Christian than we are, except…they’re not.

 

[10gr8kids]

Exactly. And it’s not pro-choice to ask that question. If childbirth were more affordable and post-part in care, then maybe abortion wouldn’t be so appealing. That might actually prevent abortion.

Once again, I’m not arguing that high cost of healthcare is moral, but if you give your child up for adoption, whoever adopts your child will cover healthcare costs. There are many, many people in this country who would love to adopt, but let’s face it, abortion just seem like a much easier way out of an unwanted pregnancy.

I’m also not saying that anyone should feel compelled to give their child up for adoption simply because of the high cost of labor and delivery. I just don’t believe that is the reason someone chooses to have an abortion.

 

[10gr8kids]

I’ve always wondered why “pro-life” stops after one is born!

How do you figure it does?

 

[Mort_Alz]

I don’t know it. And I don’t receive healthcare because I can’t afford it, not because I’m perfectly healthy. I’m not saying the high cost of healthcare is moral, I’m saying our societies anti-life values are immoral. If our society is saying that abortion, euthanasia is a good thing, why do I want them in control of my healthcare. I’m a stay at home mom, only a HS graduate, don’t make a lot of money, to society a nobody. Do I trust that this govt. will think my life is worth spending much money on? No
Yeah, we can afford to eat, but I can’t afford to buy all the fresh fruits and vegetables I want. I can’t afford the healthier wheat breads, I have to buy the cheapest white breads I can find. There are many more examples I could give you. Not to mention that if it wasn’t for the deer meat we have there wouldn’t be much meat in our diet.

I don’t vote for pro-life candidates because I’m rich and my life is easy, I do it because my well-formed conscience tells me without the right to life, there are no other rights.

You are more virtuous than most. You have he advantage of having a sound faith by which to judge these things. Most people are sick in the area of faith and must have their physical needs met before they will take our faith seriously enough to listen.

But, let me reiterate, I do admire your virtue. Without sarcasm. I’m merely proposing that feeding a culture war will not win the maximum amount of souls possible. In that refard, I agree with the Holy Father.

 

[Tablefor9]

The cost of childbirth - the cost of choosing life - is way too expensive.

Why are abortions more affordable than deliveries?

In an abortion, only the mother has to make it out alive.

Also, there are several reasons birth has become so expensive. 1. The medicalization of birth. When women want and sometimes need induced labor, that requires specialized monitoring and care. Which are expensive. (The machines and labor bed and labor tubs cost A LOT of money in the hospital). They also lead to even more expensive interventions (epidural–check your anesthesia bill) and MD presence on the unit when baby’s heart rate drops (they aren’t making money at the office, they will be making something for sitting at the desk watching a baby’s heart rate tracing all day). Eventually the doc will get tired of watching that ****** heart rate and then CA-CHING Cesarean birth. 3. Malpractice insurance. Don’t get me started. The rising costs of OB insurance, many plans of which will not cover combined midwife practice or only do so with exorbitant rates, are passed on to women. 4. Who do you think is paying off the $100 K the doc had left in student loans. They still have to pay their mortgage, so the loans are rolled to overhead, as is the office staff salary, the office, the staff unaffordable care insurance.

The fact is, affordable birth can still be had. Midwives are less expensive and at least as safe, many studies show saf-ER than MD for low risk women. There are plenty of homeborth midwives that will get you done for $500-1000 and you will have a safe, healthy, low intervention birth. It just may not be what you planned.

 

[10gr8kids]

The cost of childbirth - the cost of choosing life - is way too expensive.

Why are abortions more affordable than deliveries?

Maybe because our government would rather see more abortions than live births?

 

[Path_Finder]

Winning a few battles is far from knowing you can win the whole war. That is the prerogative for a just war to be justly waged. You have to know there is a higher likelihood of success for the whole war to won. Not just a few battles. If you can win a few battles but will unlikely win the whole war, it cannot be justly waged.

I don’t see whole states fighting abortion extremely well including the nation’s second most populous state in Texas as being “a few battles”, in fact, if one took all of the “battles”, per Texas, Ohio, New Jersey and so on, it is significant in my view.

 

[Mort_Alz]

In an abortion, only the mother has to make it out alive.

Also, there are several reasons birth has become so expensive. 1. The medicalization of birth. When women want and sometimes need induced labor, that requires specialized monitoring and care. Which are expensive. (The machines and labor bed and labor tubs cost A LOT of money in the hospital). They also lead to even more expensive interventions (epidural–check your anesthesia bill) and MD presence on the unit when baby’s heart rate drops (they aren’t making money at the office, they will be making something for sitting at the desk watching a baby’s heart rate tracing all day). Eventually the doc will get tired of watching that ****** heart rate and then CA-CHING Cesarean birth. 3. Malpractice insurance. Don’t get me started. The rising costs of OB insurance, many plans of which will not cover combined midwife practice or only do so with exorbitant rates, are passed on to women. 4. Who do you think is paying off the $100 K the doc had left in student loans. They still have to pay their mortgage, so the loans are rolled to overhead, as is the office staff salary, the office, the staff unaffordable care insurance.

The fact is, affordable birth can still be had. Midwives are less expensive and at least as safe, many studies show saf-ER than MD for low risk women. There are plenty of homeborth midwives that will get you done for $500-1000 and you will have a safe, healthy, low intervention birth. It just may not be what you planned.

You’re kind of proving our point. Machines cost a fortune because they are sold by profit-driven companies who charge more than they’re worth. Doctors are paid more than they should be. (Why aren’t police officers and teachers paid as much?). An answer might be because doctors have to pay for their ridiculously expensive schooling which is another evil. American universities are profit-driven and charge way too much.

I’m not advocating socialism, I’m just saying you can’t run every function of a society like a business. It results in injustice.

 

[Path_Finder]

There is a lot of ignorance of actual Church teaching here.

It is not a grave sin to vote for someone who supports abortion. You can vote for someone who supports abortion if in good conscience you believe they will do good in other areas and believe that the good they do is more important than the harm they do.

An example is abolishing the death penalty. Sanders is in favor of abortion but is the only candidate who supports abolishing the death penalty. The death penalty is also part of the culture of death. If you ascribe to not voting for anyone who supports the culture of death then you can’t vote for anyone.

To the OP, “Good healthcare only goes to the rich” is just a silly statement.

-Tim-

Then please tell us, what part of the Vatican’s “DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION”, that we are not to enable abortion in any way is not Church teaching? The Vatican has indeed codified the position of the Catholic Church and I find the above statements as not only false but dangerous.

The Vatican has even other documents on such matters.

 

[Mort_Alz]

Once again, I’m not arguing that high cost of healthcare is moral, but if you give your child up for adoption, whoever adopts your child will cover healthcare costs. There are many, many people in this country who would love to adopt, but let’s face it, abortion just seem like a much easier way out of an unwanted pregnancy.

I’m also not saying that anyone should feel compelled to give their child up for adoption simply because of the high cost of labor and delivery. I just don’t believe that is the reason someone chooses to have an abortion.

It’s more than that. There are some very difficult hoops to jump through if you want to adopt. You can really only do it if you make an above average income.

 

[Mort_Alz]

Then please tell us, what part of the Vatican’s “DECLARATION ON PROCURED ABORTION”, that we are not to enable abortion in any way is not Church teaching? The Vatican has indeed codified the position of the Catholic Church and I find the above statements as not only false but dangerous.

The Vatican has even other documents on such matters.

You cannot apply moral logic as densely as that in all cases. By that logic we are morally obligated to blow up abortion clinics. Why not?

 

[ALoveDivine]

How am I going to in good conscience vote for a party that supports war, torture in many cases, and the death penalty? A party that supports sending potentially thousands of Americans to die overseas in Iraq and Syria…how is that pro-life? How can I support a party that wants to cut the safety net right out from under millions of Americans who are struggling in dire poverty to survive, while the top one tenth of one percent lives in unspeakable luxury? No, the GOP is a gross and morally destitute gang of unfathomable proportions. I refuse to ever vote for them.

I am all for voting for Bernie Sanders, he is the only one that will solve the healthcare crisis and ensure that all Americans have access to higher education. He is the only one who will raise the minimum wage (which right now is not enough to live on), fight for universal single-payer healthcare (like most civilized countries have), and universal tuition-free education. Yes taxes will go up. I’m fine with that. Render unto Ceasar. Certain things are too expensive for working people and should not be paid out of pocket, but by the state via a progressive taxation.

By the way, Bernie Sanders is not going to “improve” Obamacare. He’s going to abolish it, he’s in favor of universal single-payer healthcare, muck like exists in the UK.

Yes, vote your conscience, vote for Bernie Sanders. The abortion issue is not going to change at the federal level anytime soon, same with gay marriage. The supreme court has decided on those issues, its terrible but it is what it is. Our efforts as Christians are best focused on helping the poor and breaking down the obscene wealth gap in this country.

If there was any party in this country that was socially conservative and fiscally liberal, I would vote for them. Unfortunately no such party exists. If some of you really think its immoral to vote for a democratic candidate, what should those of us do who cannot in good conscience vote for a republican? Should we just stay home and not vote? Or is that “immoral” too?

 

[JackVk]

I dare say that Bernie Sanders is not trying to help the poor, women, or minorities. The only people he wants to empower are his chums in the Washington kleptocracy.

His pro-abortion stance is enough of a deal-breaker. But he has also shown himself to be woefully clueless in terms of economics. He asked why banks charge more interest for student loans than mortgages, and complained that banks charge $5 to use an ATM (not realizing that that’s only when it’s not your bank). Finally, he doesn’t realize that he socialist states in Scandinavia which he idolizes have a political system with crippling collectivism and virtually no independent thought.

The only reason he’s in contention is because of millenial social justice warriors. He’s the democratic equivalent of Rick Santorum. His endgame is not to help anyone, but to increase the country’s resemblance to a termite colony.

Remember, Jesus told the rich young man to sell what he had. When the latter went away sad, Our Lord did not order a centurion to beat up the young man and coerce him into giving to the poor.

 

[Mort_Alz]

1. Since when does Christianity have anything to do with getting something for free?
2. When is someone who is severely injured or near death EVER turned away from good health care in this country? Advanced or long-term treatments may not be available to everyone who is uninsured, and that’s a problem worth talking about. But this nonsense about peoples’ lives not being saved for lack of money is just hyperbole.
3. Taxes are a necessary part of government, true. Why is it that a hundred years ago taxes were drastically lower? Were we not Christian enough then? Can you measure the quality a nation’s faith by it’s level of taxation? Sweden, Denmark, and The Netherlands must be much more Christian than we are, except…they’re not.

1. Um, since Christians practically invented free healthcare?
2. Yes, I am using hyperbole, but that hyperbole is not far from the reality of a businessman hiking up the price of HIV meds to ungodly proportions. HIV positive people need those meds to live. You wanna tell me that’s Christian? It’s that kind of thing that happens when healthcare is made into a business. Healthcare should not be profit driven.
3. Who said tax amounts were the determining factor in the Christianness of a government?

 

[Tablefor9]

Well, one thing I DIDN’T ask for was to be psychoanalyzed. Ad hominem is a big pet peeve of mine.

Yes, of course I already think my reasoning is sound, but I submit to the Church and wanted to double-check that voting in a such a way wasn’t forbidden. So far, no one has quoted a Church authority that has said so. The closest anyone has come was Tim Staples, but he is hardly an authority. He’s a lay apologist.

I don’t think I did any bits of psychoanalysis, nor any personal attacks or abuse. If one asks a question about whether something is sinful, then appears to rationalize continuing to hold to an opinion of course of action despite counsel to the contrary, conclusions are going to be drawn. I’m sorry if that is offensive to you. I gave you my opinion, now I’ll reach for something more concrete: how about the US Bishop’s Living the Gospel of Life? Not enough? How about Saint Pope John Paul II: “Above all, the common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights – for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture – is false and illusory if the right to life, the most basic and fundamental right and the condition for all other personal rights, is not defended with maximum determination” (Christifideles Laici, 1988).

 

[Mort_Alz]

I dare say that Bernie Sanders is not trying to help the poor, women, or minorities. The only people he wants to empower are his chums in the Washington kleptocracy.

His pro-abortion stance is enough of a deal-breaker. But he has also shown himself to be woefully clueless in terms of economics. He asked why banks charge more interest for student loans than mortgages, and complained that banks charge $5 to use an ATM (not realizing that that’s only when it’s not your bank). Finally, he doesn’t realize that he socialist states in Scandinavia which he idolizes have a political system with crippling collectivism and virtually no independent thought.

The only reason he’s in contention is because of millenial social justice warriors. He’s the democratic equivalent of Rick Santorum. His endgame is not to help anyone, but to increase the country’s resemblance to s termite colony.

Remember, Jesus told the rich young man to sell what he had. When the latter went away sad, Our Lord did not order a centurion to beat up the young man and coerce him into giving to the poor.

It is hyperbole to say that anyone in America is beat up and forced to give to the poor. It is an insignificant amount of tax money that actually goes to welfare. That part of the taxes we pay hardly makes a dent in our paychecks.

 

[Mort_Alz]

How am I going to in good conscience vote for a party that supports war, torture in many cases, and the death penalty? A party that supports sending potentially thousands of Americans to die overseas in Iraq and Syria…how is that pro-life? How can I support a party that wants to cut the safety net right out from under millions of Americans who are struggling in dire poverty to survive, while the top one tenth of one percent lives in unspeakable luxury? No, the GOP is a gross and morally destitute gang of unfathomable proportions. I refuse to ever vote for them.

I am all for voting for Bernie Sanders, he is the only one that will solve the healthcare crisis and ensure that all Americans have access to higher education. He is the only one who will raise the minimum wage (which right now is not enough to live on), fight for universal single-payer healthcare (like most civilized countries have), and universal tuition-free education. Yes taxes will go up. I’m fine with that. Render unto Ceasar. Certain things are too expensive for working people and should not be paid out of pocket, but by the state via a progressive taxation.

By the way, Bernie Sanders is not going to “improve” Obamacare. He’s going to abolish it, he’s in favor of universal single-payer healthcare, muck like exists in the UK.

Yes, vote your conscience, vote for Bernie Sanders. The abortion issue is not going to change at the federal level anytime soon, same with gay marriage. The supreme court has decided on those issues, its terrible but it is what it is. Our efforts as Christians are best focused on helping the poor and breaking down the obscene wealth gap in this country.

If there was any party in this country that was socially conservative and fiscally liberal, I would vote for them. Unfortunately no such party exists. If some of you really think its immoral to vote for a democratic candidate, what should those of us do who cannot in good conscience vote for a republican? Should we just stay home and not vote? Or is that “immoral” too?

I heart this post. Especially the first sentence of the last paragraph.

 

[ALoveDivine]

This slandering of taxation is laughable. Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesars. Jesus affirmed the legitimacy of taxation. Some of you are using arguments that come from Ayn Rand, not anything in the Christian tradition. We are to pay our taxes, and governments are called to use that revenue for the common good.

That is what Bernie Sanders and other progressive and social-democratic candidates propose; using tax revenue for the common good. I can’t for the life of me figure out why this is so controversial to so many Christians in this country.

 

[Tablefor9]

You’re kind of proving our point. Machines cost a fortune because they are sold by profit-driven companies who charge more than they’re worth. Doctors are paid more than they should be. (Why aren’t police officers and teachers paid as much?). An answer might be because doctors have to pay for their ridiculously expensive schooling which is another evil. American universities are profit-driven and charge way too much.

I’m not advocating socialism, I’m just saying you can’t run every function of a society like a business. It results in injustice.

Apparently the people who build those machines and beds, and the nurses who support those laboring women make too much money, too. That is what you mean, when you say those things cost too much. And the developers of the technology? They made to much for all the years they worked on it? I’ve got news: none of us got rich on this.

Teachers and police officers, wonderful as they are, do not sacrifice 12 years in med school and residency, then sacrifice sleep for years afterward. They are due something for that. They are due something for the fact that they are called away from their lives to help women birth in more risky ways. They are due something for the fact that they can and have been held lives in their hands and mistakes can’t be made.

I’m sorry police officers and teachers can’t make a living in this country. But vilifying the people who are financially ok does not equate justice. It’s the fomenting of class warfare and it’s wrong.

 

[10gr8kids]

You’re kind of proving our point. Machines cost a fortune because they are sold by profit-driven companies who charge more than they’re worth. Doctors are paid more than they should be. (Why aren’t police officers and teachers paid as much?). An answer might be because doctors have to pay for their ridiculously expensive schooling which is another evil. American universities are profit-driven and charge way too much.

I’m not advocating socialism, I’m just saying you can’t run every function of a society like a business. It results in injustice.

Thank you for your kind words in a previous post. I would like to say that I am not that virtuous. I have always been extremely pro-life, because I love babies. I always thought I would have several children. My life experiences of having 8 miscarriages has only deepened my respect and love for unborn children’s lives.

To your quote above, I tend to agree with you and have made many of the same comments myself. However, I still believe that if we, as a country, don’t respect the life of the unborn these other things will never improve. We will just keep falling farther and farther. I do believe the Christians in our country have failed at being as generous as God has called us to be, and I have been as guilty as anyone. We want more and more and all we see is what we don’t have instead of seeing the needs of our neighbors, and their needs are not always material.