Is it sinful to vote for Bernie Sanders?

[Tablefor9]

Of course we should work to end abortion, it is a gross evil. I’m with you 100%. But it is not going to change any time soon. Its a sad fact. However we can make progress in closing the atrocious wealth gap in this country, and the fact that millions of Americans are struggling in desperate poverty.

I agree that we need to do more to help the poor move out of poverty. That includes making it profitable to get off assistance programs. For many, it may not be, because the poor that make too much to qualify for assistance, anecdotally at least, have less disposable income than those on anti-poverty programs. That’s not my point.

My point is that it is not okay to kill children. Full stop. It’s not okay to protect someone’s “right” to kill a child. The poor are disproportionately more likely to have abortion clinics in their neighborhood, and disproportionately more likely to feel use of it may be their best option. If we care about the poor, we’ll change the face of maternal health and stop promoting policies and policymakers that endorse killing the most vulnerable of the poor.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

This is a terrible excuse for having an abortion.
Also, if a persons reason for voting for an anti-life candidate is because a pro-life candidate doesn’t help the pro-life cause, then how can you justify voting for a social liberal? Obama, nor any Democrat, has made my life financially easier.

They have mine, and those who are born are loved by God as much as the unborn.

As Pope Francis said, we can’t decide things based on this issue only.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Certain people running for president has changed the game for me. I don’t believe for one second that the guy running whose name rhymes with chump is pro-life. He wasn’t before and I don’t think he is minimally informed on the subject.

I say it changed the game because there is that Catholic voters guide and it’s not obvious in spite of claims that I don’t trust a potential candidates claims. Catholics are to avoid voting for anyone who is pro-choice and I know many pro-life voters have voted for 3rd party candidates because they felt that that candidate was genuinely pro-choice and would make strides to change the law or whatever they felt a “true” pro-life president would do. Candidates making promises and not keeping them is not new but as a cynical friend put it all politicians lie; I’m not that cynical but I’m aware that the most stridently pro-life candidate will never get elected and someone moderately might have a better chance, but I will not vote for babbling blowhard who can’t finish a sentence, repeats banal lines as though if he says a thing enough it will be true, and who wouldn’t be able to articulate his “pro-life” position in any clear, cogent manner due to the fact he Is. Not. Pro-life.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Certain people running for president has changed the game for me. I don’t believe for one second that the guy running whose name rhymes with chump is pro-life. He wasn’t before and I don’t think he is minimally informed on the subject.

I say it changed the game is that we are to avoid voting for anyone who is pro-choice and I know many pro-life voters have voted for 3rd party candidates because they felt that that candidate was genuinely pro-choice and would make strides to change the law or whatever they felt a “true” pro-life president would do. Candidates making promises and not keeping them is not new but as a cynical friend put it all politicians lie; I’m not that cynical but I’m aware that the most stridently pro-life candidate will never get elected and someone moderately might have a better chance, but I will not vote for babbling blowhard who can’t finish a sentence, repeats banal lines as though if he says a thing enough it will be true, and who wouldn’t be able to articulate his “pro-life” position in any clear, cogent manner due to the fact he Is. Not. Pro-life.

I agree!

 

[10gr8kids]

They have mine, and those who are born are loved by God as much as the unborn.

As Pope Francis said, we can’t decide things based on this issue only.

This just makes me so sad.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

This just makes me so sad.

Given your miscarriages, I understand. I would probably feel the same way if I had undergone eight miscarriages.

But your name indicates you have ten children. I’m sure you value the living ones as much as the miscarried ones.

So, why would I said make you sad? I value all life, even non-human life.

 

[Neofight]

One cannot compare abortion - which is intrinsically grave evil with the death penalty which is not. The death penalty is not per se from the “culture of death” though one couls argue that the misuse of it is.

Yes we ought to seek to eliminate the death penalty - for the need for such is very rare these days.

But it is not something that can be compared to the Millions who die from Abortion.

One certainly can. The death penalty becomes intrinsically evil anytime it is carried out without regard to exhausting all available means to keep society safe from the convicted killer… …and it can be compared, because any one human life does not have more sanctity than another.

 

[10gr8kids]

I don’t believe for one second that the guy running whose name rhymes with chump is pro-life. He wasn’t before and I don’t think he is minimally informed on the subject.

.

I agree, and I hope and pray he doesn’t win the nomination. This just shows how far our country has fallen. Even now conservatives are voting for someone who, IMO, is obviously not pro-life. How have we lost our soul? Little by little.

 

[oliver927]

Yes, and that’s absolutely fine. At least that way poor people could actually have healthcare. When something extraordinarily expensive is paid for out of pocket, only the well-off can afford it. When the same thing is paid for through taxation, all have access to it regardless of socio-economic status. With something as important as healthcare, all should have access to it. I’m completely fine with higher taxes for such things.

I am not OK with it. The government will waste massive amounts of money on bureaucracy resulting in paying more for less care. The government runs nothing efficiently.

 

[Tablefor9]

Certain people running for president has changed the game for me. I don’t believe for one second that the guy running whose name rhymes with chump is pro-life. He wasn’t before and I don’t think he is minimally informed on the subject.

I say it changed the game because there is that Catholic voters guide and it’s not obvious in spite of claims that I don’t trust a potential candidates claims. Catholics are to avoid voting for anyone who is pro-choice and I know many pro-life voters have voted for 3rd party candidates because they felt that that candidate was genuinely pro-choice and would make strides to change the law or whatever they felt a “true” pro-life president would do. Candidates making promises and not keeping them is not new but as a cynical friend put it all politicians lie; I’m not that cynical but I’m aware that the most stridently pro-life candidate will never get elected and someone moderately might have a better chance, but I will not vote for babbling blowhard who can’t finish a sentence, repeats banal lines as though if he says a thing enough it will be true, and who wouldn’t be able to articulate his “pro-life” position in any clear, cogent manner due to the fact he Is. Not. Pro-life.

This is true. And it’s a horrible thing to think that there will be no viable pro-life candidate. I think we can change this if we make it a point to vote prolife in the primaries.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I dare say that Bernie Sanders is not trying to help the poor, women, or minorities. The only people he wants to empower are his chums in the Washington kleptocracy.

(…)

Quadruple that for Trump. Not even sure he wants to empower anyone but himself.

I predict this election will have more write-ins than ever before.

 

[Horton]

I, too, am against abortion 100%, however I, too, believe we cannot choose a president based on this one issue alone. If the financial situation of many people becomes even worse, more people are going to opt for abortion.

I’m sorry Lily but this statement makes me doubt you all the more. To end abortion, to protect the unborn in our society we MUST as the Church Militant never ever find some reason where it may be ok for a person to murder a child. Even while you state you are anti-abortion (which I believe you are) you then leave a loophole where some may decided abortion is the only option. This is not OK for Catholics.

I would not vote for a pro-choice president.

 

[Tablefor9]

One certainly can. The death penalty becomes intrinsically evil anytime it is carried out without regard to exhausting all available means to keep society safe from the convicted killer… …and it can be compared, because any one human life does not have more sanctity than another.

It is because of SCOPE that abortion is the focus. 55+ million, versus 1427. And, sorry, but innocence does make a difference. Entire Old Testament period people groups weren’t under the judgement of God for killing killers. Sacrificing babies, otoh…

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I’m sorry Lily but this statement makes me doubt you all the more. To end abortion, to protect the unborn in our society we MUST as the Church Militant never ever find some reason where it may be ok for a person to murder a child. Even while you state you are anti-abortion (which I believe you are) you then leave a loophole where some may decided abortion is the only option. This is not OK for Catholics.

I would not vote for a pro-choice president.

Horton, electing a pro-life president is not going to change the fact that abortion is legal in the US, so we have to work to stop it in other ways. I believe it’s immoral to be pro-choice. But honestly, I believe all the candidates are just saying what they believe the voters want to hear. I don’t have faith in politicians. Too much flip-flopping and broken promises.

I don’t think it’s okay for anyone to murder a child. I think you misinterpreted my post. I don’t believe in abortion even in cases of rape or incest or even when the mother’s life is in danger. I wasn’t leaving a loophole for some to commit the murder of an unborn child. I was saying that if people find it more and more of a burden to support a family, they might turn to abortion. I was not, in any way, condoning them doing it, and I’m sorry if you took it that way. I don’t think anything makes it okay. Nothing. There are no loopholes unless one might be insane and not be able to tell right from wrong.

Some may decide to abort, but that doesn’t mean I condone their decision. And I don’t think it’s morally right to vote for someone who is pro-choice. That would make us a co-author of the evil that abortion is.

 

[10gr8kids]

Given your miscarriages, I understand. I would probably feel the same way if I had undergone eight miscarriages.

But your name indicates you have ten children. I’m sure you value the living ones as much as the miscarried ones.

So, why would I said make you sad? I value all life, even non-human life.

Yes, two here the other eight in heaven. I do value the ones here as much as the ones in heaven, but not more. I don’t believe one should vote for an easier life for themselves at the cost of someone else’s life. I do believe that it is very important to take care of the needs of those that are here; food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare. Yet, if we have gone so far down that we will exchange others lives so our life will be easier…I just think it is going to backfire.

It seems that there is help for those in our society that need food, clothing, and shelter, but the unborn are still being killed by the thousands.

I would love for abortion to be taken off the table and have the luxury of being able to look at other issues and what I believe would be best for our society. Until then, I will put life first.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Yes, two here the other eight in heaven. I do value the ones here as much as the ones in heaven, but not more. I don’t believe one should vote for an easier life for themselves at the cost of someone else’s life. I do believe that it is very important to take care of the needs of those that are here; food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare. Yet, if we have gone so far down that we will exchange others lives so our life will be easier…I just think it is going to backfire.

It seems that there is help for those in our society that need food, clothing, and shelter, but the unborn are still being killed by the thousands.

I would love for abortion to be taken off the table and have the luxury of being able to look at other issues and what I believe would be best for our society. Until then, I will put life first.

My family and I spend Thanksgiving and Christmas helping in a homeless shelter. We help out other times when we can. There are always more people who want in than we can accommodate, so that means some people have to go hungry and some have to sleep in the cold. Children and babies as well as adults. I know many people who can’t afford the high-priced Obamacare, but don’t qualify for welfare, so get no medical or dental care. When you see a child who is cold, hungry, and needs medical care he or she can’t get that is heartbreaking. No, it doesn’t make abortion okay. Nothing can make abortion okay. It just means we have a lot of issues to contend with.

I am ver, very sorry for your losses. Losing eight children is more than anyone should have to bear, but I guess we have to trust in God. Sometimes that’s very hard.

 

[Path_Finder]

One certainly can. The death penalty becomes intrinsically evil anytime it is carried out without regard to exhausting all available means to keep society safe from the convicted killer… …and it can be compared, because any one human life does not have more sanctity than another.

Sure, one can.

But let’s make it clear that this is not Catholic teaching, this is one’s own projection.

There is no moral equivalency and the Church says so.

 

[10gr8kids]

My family and I spend Thanksgiving and Christmas helping in a homeless shelter. We help out other times when we can. There are always more people who want in than we can accommodate, so that means some people have to go hungry and some have to sleep in the cold. Children and babies as well as adults. I know many people who can’t afford the high-priced Obamacare, but don’t qualify for welfare, so get no medical or dental care. When you see a child who is cold, hungry, and needs medical care he or she can’t get that is heartbreaking. No, it doesn’t make abortion okay. Nothing can make abortion okay. It just means we have a lot of issues to contend with.

I am ver, very sorry for your losses. Losing eight children is more than anyone should have to bear, but I guess we have to trust in God. Sometimes that’s very hard.

Maybe this accounts for some of our differences of opinions.

I have also helped out at a Thanksgiving dinner in our community. It is a very rural community where a high percentage of the children are on subsidized lunch meals. It is also a very Christian community. Everything was donated, food, plates, preparation, help. We had tons of food leftover, we sent home lots of meals for those who were unable to get out, and we brought a lot to a Samaritan house in the community and a women’s shelter.

In my community people really try to help those that are less fortunate, even when they might be struggling themselves. This is what I believe is needed, this is what I think a Christian community should look like.

I can’t imagine helping to serve a meal and not having enough and having to send some away empty. That is heartbreaking and needs to be addressed.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I’m sorry Lily but this statement makes me doubt you all the more. To end abortion, to protect the unborn in our society we MUST as the Church Militant never ever find some reason where it may be ok for a person to murder a child. Even while you state you are anti-abortion (which I believe you are) you then leave a loophole where some may decided abortion is the only option. This is not OK for Catholics.

I would not vote for a pro-choice president.

Horton, if you doubt me, if anyone doubts me, that’s fine. I’m here to learn, not to garner approval. Of course, I want to avoid bad feelings with other posters.

The way I see it, trust has to be earned, and I’m not above putting in the time to earn the trust of my fellow posters. Some may never trust or like me, and that’s okay. I’m just an anonymous person on a message board. I’m not here to say I know more than others because I know I don’t. Sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever learn all I need to know. Some of my professors have been teaching as long as I’ve been alive. The amount of knowledge they have is staggering to me. I don’t see how I’ll ever reach that point, but they tell me I can. Well, time will tell.

Just so you know, I have no problem with you. I trust you. I believe you are a sincere and devout Catholic. I enjoy your posts and learn from them.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Maybe this accounts for some of our differences of opinions.

I have also helped out at a Thanksgiving dinner in our community. It is a very rural community where a high percentage of the children are on subsidized lunch meals. It is also a very Christian community. Everything was donated, food, plates, preparation, help. We had tons of food leftover, we sent home lots of meals for those who were unable to get out, and we brought a lot to a Samaritan house in the community and a women’s shelter.

In my community people really try to help those that are less fortunate, even when they might be struggling themselves. This is what I believe is needed, this is what I think a Christian community should look like.

I can’t imagine helping to serve a meal and not having enough and having to send some away empty. That is heartbreaking and needs to be addressed.

Yes, I think both situations need to be addressed: the murder of the unborn and the hunger and homelessness in our cities. People in cities can turn a blind eye to the homeless. I’ve had more experience with the homeless, but please be assured that I do care about abortion. All souls are precious to Christ.