Is it sinful to vote for Bernie Sanders?

[bobballen_18]

I’m a little confused at those who are using Pope Francis’ statement about “we need not always focus on abortion/gay marriage” etc., as a reason to not making voting for a pro-life candidate a priority. He was not talking about voting, that’s for sure. Maybe one could make the argument it could certainly be interpreted to be talking about things such as voting for the president of a nation, but he was talking about it in the context of the focus of the Church. And the reason he made that statement was because he says the Church herself should focus on the primary message, and that’s the message of Christ and his salvation. Is this what the pro-abortion/choice’s candidates’ positions are, and is that the focus of those Catholics who are okay with voting for a pro-choice candidate? I think not. I don’t think voting for a candidate who has admirable fiscal goals/methods/ideas means one thing about supporting the message of Christ and his salvation. No political candidate is going around preaching Christ and his salvation. (The candidate I’d say comes closest to that, at least based on publicity from doing so, is Marco Rubio.) We can say that a certain candidate’s views may bring about things which are good for society or that Jesus Christ would support…but the reality is, we really don’t know.

We do know, however, that abortion is a rampant, large-scale evil in our country/world, and that many Americans support it as a normal, good thing. How is this not a huge problem? People seem to be outraged at Americans being put to death from the death penalty and via wars. OK, fine (except that the death penalty, when used for the correct reasons and not as revenge, is certainly moral), but I just don’t see the same outrage towards abortion, which has killed millions and millions more than both of those issues combined.

I like Bookcat’s comment that if a candidate thinks it should not only be legal, but also perfectly fine/moral and indeed, in many cases encouraged, to support a mother’s “right” to kill her child, that candidate has something wrong with his thinking at a very fundamental level and ought not to be looked up to as a public figure, much less the president of America.

So bottom line for me, particularly with regards to Pope Francis’ comment which I mentioned at the beginning of this post, is that politics is NOT the Church. Sure, politics can (and I think ought to) be used to promote Christian principles, but I don’t think his comment was meant to be applied to politics/voting. As far as I can tell, his comment was meant to be applied to evangelizing others and bringing other to Christ. He was saying we don’t go up to a non-Catholic/non-Christian and say, “hey, I’m Charlie, did you know the Church thinks abortion/gay marriage/etc is evil?” but rather “hey, I’m Charlie, did you know God became man out of his infinite love and died for our sins so that we could be with Him in Eternity?” (or something of the sort, perhaps not exactly in those words or in that manner…lol).

No matter what, I know that my conscience would never allow me to vote for a politician who supports what is the #1 cause of death in America. Nope, never.

 

[Bookcat]

catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/straight-talk-about-abortion

 

[Horton]

Horton, if you doubt me, if anyone doubts me, that’s fine. I’m here to learn, not to garner approval. Of course, I want to avoid bad feelings with other posters.

The way I see it, trust has to be earned, and I’m not above putting in the time to earn the trust of my fellow posters. Some may never trust or like me, and that’s okay. I’m just an anonymous person on a message board. I’m not here to say I know more than others because I know I don’t. Sometimes I wonder if I’ll ever learn all I need to know. Some of my professors have been teaching as long as I’ve been alive. The amount of knowledge they have is staggering to me. I don’t see how I’ll ever reach that point, but they tell me I can. Well, time will tell.

Just so you know, I have no problem with you. I trust you. I believe you are a sincere and devout Catholic. I enjoy your posts and learn from them.

Do you believe you are the only person on these forums that went to college or has an advanced degree? It’s when you constantly throw this kind of thing out there. My professors in college had far more knowledge collectively than I ever will. Some of them taught their whole career, some taught after doing field work for years. And today, all these years after college…well I have enough education, field work, and experience to form my own opinion without having to justify anything to anyone, which is why I don’t throw it out there in every thread I post on. When I see it I think of the date rule my friends & I used in younger days, “if a guy has to tell you over & over again he’s a good guy, he probably does so because he can’t SHOW you he’s a good guy”.

 

[Intransivert]

I’ll never understand when we became a nation of people with their hands out. I’m not that old, but I remember as a kid that we all recognized that we had to pay for the things we wanted and yes, even the things we needed. Everybody wants something to be free – free meaning that somebody else pays for it. We’re entitled to free healthcare, free education, etc. When does it end? “Render unto Caesar” doesn’t mean render more and more every year unto Caesar.

Bernie supporters speak as though the inability to pay for one’s own bachelor’s degree is a human rights violation. I’m all for safety nets, but a bachelor’s degree in sociology isn’t a safety net.

Since this forum is about morality, can we actually talk about morality? Isn’t the abortion atrocity essentially a holocaust by any definition? Are there really people here that think it’s morally preferential to support a candidate that endorses this holocaust instead of a candidate that supports policy requiring people to pay for their own stuff, no matter how important that stuff is? Seriously?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Do you believe you are the only person on these forums that went to college or has an advanced degree? It’s when you constantly throw this kind of thing out there. My professors in college had far more knowledge collectively than I ever will. Some of them taught their whole career, some taught after doing field work for years. And today, all these years after college…well I have enough education, field work, and experience to form my own opinion without having to justify anything to anyone, which is why I don’t throw it out there in every thread I post on. When I see it I think of the date rule my friends & I used in younger days, “if a guy has to tell you over & over again he’s a good guy, he probably does so because he can’t SHOW you he’s a good guy”.

Aw, come on, Horton! I don’t say it on every thread by a long shot! You know that. And I believe a lot of people here have advanced degrees. I know one person has one in Earth Science, another in Philosophy, another in Education.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

I’ll never understand when we became a nation of people with their hands out. I’m not that old, but I remember as a kid that we all recognized that we had to pay for the things we wanted and yes, even the things we needed. Everybody wants something to be free – free meaning that somebody else pays for it. We’re entitled to free healthcare, free education, etc. When does it end? “Render unto Caesar” doesn’t mean render more and more every year unto Caesar.

Bernie supporters speak as though the inability to pay for one’s own bachelor’s degree is a human rights violation. I’m all for safety nets, but a bachelor’s degree in sociology isn’t a safety net.

Since this forum is about morality, can we actually talk about morality? Isn’t the abortion atrocity essentially a holocaust by any definition? Are there really people here that think it’s morally preferential to support a candidate that endorses this holocaust instead of a candidate that supports policy requiring people to pay for their own stuff, no matter how important that stuff is? Seriously?

I paid for my Bachelor’s and my Master’s and I’m paying for my PhD. My parents taught me never to ask anyone to pay for anything for me.

Some people really do need charity, but I believe, like you, far too many people rely on others, especially for their education.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

When I see it I think of the date rule my friends & I used in younger days, “if a guy has to tell you over & over again he’s a good guy, he probably does so because he can’t SHOW you he’s a good guy”.

If that’s what you think, that’s what you think. So be it.

 

[Mort_Alz]

Why would you want to vote for someone who wants to make the Federal government even bigger? Good grief, our Constitution is all about a limited Federal entity and allowing the people to have the maximum amount of liberty possible. Why do you want other people making decisions for you that you should be making for yourself?

I know this will be unpopular, but I don’t actually care about the U.S. Constitution that much. Don’t get me wrong. I care about it. Just not that much. I’ll defend it, but not because it deserves to be defended in itself. I’ll defend it the same way anyone defends one’s country and the peaceful operation of society. But, it is ignorance to treat the U.S. Constitution like it is a Catholic document born of sound theology. The founding fathers were mostly Deists, at best. America is not a Christian nation. And I am no less Catholic for saying that.

 

[Horton]

I’ll never understand when we became a nation of people with their hands out. I’m not that old, but I remember as a kid that we all recognized that we had to pay for the things we wanted and yes, even the things we needed. Everybody wants something to be free – free meaning that somebody else pays for it. We’re entitled to free healthcare, free education, etc. When does it end? “Render unto Caesar” doesn’t mean render more and more every year unto Caesar.

Bernie supporters speak as though the inability to pay for one’s own bachelor’s degree is a human rights violation. I’m all for safety nets, but a bachelor’s degree in sociology isn’t a safety net.

Since this forum is about morality, can we actually talk about morality? Isn’t the abortion atrocity essentially a holocaust by any definition? Are there really people here that think it’s morally preferential to support a candidate that endorses this holocaust instead of a candidate that supports policy requiring people to pay for their own stuff, no matter how important that stuff is? Seriously?

IMHO it would be sinful to vote for Sanders on many levels. He is pro-abortion, pro free “family planning” including ABC. Aside from being a socialist, it is enough for me to know I would never vote for him.

 

[Little_Sheep]

Nope, it is not sinful to vote for Bernie Sanders. In fact, it is not sinful to vote for any of the candidates. From a sin factor, they are all equally yoked, which is to say they are all, like you, Sinners.

 

[jschwartz]

Voting for Bernie is one of the most Christian and Christ-like things a person can do. Liberating the poor, healing the sick (by addressing the flaws in our health insurance systems), uplifting workers, and reforming criminal justice to rehabilitate the incarcerated, rather than subjugate them to a prison industrial complex, etc. are all elements of Bernie’s platform that read as if they’re culled from the Gospels themselves.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Voting for Bernie is one of the most Christian and Christ-like things a person can do. Liberating the poor, healing the sick (by addressing the flaws in our health insurance systems), uplifting workers, and reforming criminal justice to rehabilitate the incarcerated, rather than subjugate them to a prison industrial complex, etc. are all elements of Bernie’s platform that read as if they’re culled from the Gospels themselves.

I’m voting for him even if I have to write him in.Hopefully, Clinton will fall further from grace and disappear with her double digit millions.

If the voter turnout in Iowa is great, Sanders will probably win.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Voting for Bernie is one of the most Christian and Christ-like things a person can do. Liberating the poor, healing the sick (by addressing the flaws in our health insurance systems), uplifting workers, and reforming criminal justice to rehabilitate the incarcerated, rather than subjugate them to a prison industrial complex, etc. are all elements of Bernie’s platform that read as if they’re culled from the Gospels themselves.

 

[Horton]

Voting for Bernie is one of the most Christian and Christ-like things a person can do. Liberating the poor, healing the sick (by addressing the flaws in our health insurance systems), uplifting workers, and reforming criminal justice to rehabilitate the incarcerated, rather than subjugate them to a prison industrial complex, etc. are all elements of Bernie’s platform that read as if they’re culled from the Gospels themselves.

Are you ok with tax rates higher than your take home income? You do know what a socialist is don’t you?

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Are you ok with tax rates higher than your take home income? You do know what a socialist is don’t you?

Actually, Sanders is a Democratic Socialist. No matter who us president, from what party, taxes will go up. They always do. They won’t go higher than anyone’s take home pay, though. That has never happened. Well, it did to my brother, but that was way back when he was working as a waiter and his paycheck was $0.00. It wasn’t the taxes that reduced it, it was his benefits. He made plenty in tips for a young kid in culinary school, though.

 

[randomuser]

Are you ok with tax rates higher than your take home income? You do know what a socialist is don’t you?

Are you ok with abortions costing less than a big-screen TV whereas the cost of childbirth and delivery is…well, let me go ahead and quote pro-life financial ‘guru’ Dave Ramsey on this one:

“A regular delivery with no complications costs $7,737 on average, with some insurance plans covering all but $500 of that fee. Cesarean sections, on the other hand, cost nearly $11,000 on average, resulting in a higher out-of-pocket fee.”
daveramsey.com/blog/financially-expect-when-expecting?ictid=ao70

Google quotes up to $37,000 when you search for average costs of delivery. That’s someone’s salary for a year. That’s obscene.

Upwards of $8,000-$12,000 to delivery a baby vs. $300-$400 for an abortion? How are those prices not completely messed up? Why isn’t abortion, since those are still dangerous, more expensive?

I’ve got no problem with higher taxes if it would help secure the right to life of unborn babies – specifically, to simply be able to be born. (Since that is, after all, what pro-life is about.)

 

[randomuser]

Voting for Bernie is one of the most Christian and Christ-like things a person can do. Liberating the poor, healing the sick (by addressing the flaws in our health insurance systems), uplifting workers, and reforming criminal justice to rehabilitate the incarcerated, rather than subjugate them to a prison industrial complex, etc. are all elements of Bernie’s platform that read as if they’re culled from the Gospels themselves.

 

[adrift]

Voting for Bernie is one of the most Christian and Christ-like things a person can do. Liberating the poor, healing the sick (by addressing the flaws in our health insurance systems), uplifting workers, and reforming criminal justice to rehabilitate the incarcerated, rather than subjugate them to a prison industrial complex, etc. are all elements of Bernie’s platform that read as if they’re culled from the Gospels themselves.

Most Christian

We are not going back to the days when women had to risk their lives to end an unwanted pregnancy. The decision about abortion must remain a decision for the woman and her doctor to make, not the government.

We are not going to allow the extreme right-wing to defund Planned Parenthood, we are going to expand it. Planned Parenthood provides vital healthcare services for millions of women, who rely on its clinics every year for affordable, quality health care services including cancer prevention, STI and HIV testing and general primary health care services. The current attempt to malign Planned Parenthood is part of a long-term smear campaign by people who want to deny women in this country the right to control their own bodies.

Anyone who supports abortion cannot be considered as a good Christian no matter what else they do. Doing some good does not wipe away the enormous evil.

 

[Horton]

Are you ok with abortions costing less than a big-screen TV whereas the cost of childbirth and delivery is…well, let me go ahead and quote pro-life financial ‘guru’ Dave Ramsey on this one:

“A regular delivery with no complications costs $7,737 on average, with some insurance plans covering all but $500 of that fee. Cesarean sections, on the other hand, cost nearly $11,000 on average, resulting in a higher out-of-pocket fee.”
daveramsey.com/blog/financially-expect-when-expecting?ictid=ao70

Google quotes up to $37,000 when you search for average costs of delivery. That’s someone’s salary for a year. That’s obscene.

Upwards of $8,000-$12,000 to delivery a baby vs. $300-$400 for an abortion? How are those prices not completely messed up? Why isn’t abortion, since those are still dangerous, more expensive?

I’ve got no problem with higher taxes if it would help secure the right to life of unborn babies – specifically, to simply be able to be born. (Since that is, after all, what pro-life is about.)

For the record I am an informed Catholic who is totally, completely pro-life, anti abortion no matter the cost.

This is a nonsensical argument. Bernie Sander is completely pro-abortion. Voting for a pro-abortion candidate will not change the cost of having a baby.

And just an aside, someone who makes $37,000 a year and has babies is not a taxpayer, only a tax filer with huge return. Just sayin…

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Are you ok with abortions costing less than a big-screen TV whereas the cost of childbirth and delivery is…well, let me go ahead and quote pro-life financial ‘guru’ Dave Ramsey on this one:

“A regular delivery with no complications costs $7,737 on average, with some insurance plans covering all but $500 of that fee. Cesarean sections, on the other hand, cost nearly $11,000 on average, resulting in a higher out-of-pocket fee.”
daveramsey.com/blog/financially-expect-when-expecting?ictid=ao70

Google quotes up to $37,000 when you search for average costs of delivery. That’s someone’s salary for a year. That’s obscene.

Upwards of $8,000-$12,000 to delivery a baby vs. $300-$400 for an abortion? How are those prices not completely messed up? Why isn’t abortion, since those are still dangerous, more expensive?

I’ve got no problem with higher taxes if it would help secure the right to life of unborn babies – specifically, to simply be able to be born. (Since that is, after all, what pro-life is about.)

I’ve got no problem with higher taxes, either if it would mean securing the life of unborn babies, but abortion is legal in the US and I don’t believe any presidential candidate is going to change that. Unfortunately, most of the US supports abortion, and I think it’s here to stay for a long time. I don’t want it, too, but we have to be realistic.