Is it sinful to vote for Bernie Sanders?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mort_Alz
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
. Unfortunately no such party exists. If some of you really think its immoral to vote for a democratic candidate, what should those of us do who cannot in good conscience vote for a republican? Should we just stay home and not vote? Or is that “immoral” too?
As said, it is up to one’s conscience. Maybe one should research it and read Vatican documents for themselves or the numerous essays written on it.

I won’t vote for the destruction of human life, I will not vote against the Catholic Church and enable abortion.
 
It’s more than that. There are some very difficult hoops to jump through if you want to adopt. You can really only do it if you make an above average income.
Yes, I am painfully aware of this.
 
I won’t vote for the destruction of human life
You better not vote at all then, because the Republicans will affirm the ‘right’ of states to murder their citizens via the death penalty. Oh yeah, and they’re likely to send Americans overseas to die as well. Plenty of destruction of human life will continue to occur, and may expand, with a republican in the White House.

If we are called to never vote for any candidate that advocates or will further the destruction of human life, there will be no “catholic vote” because no Catholic could ever vote for anyone in this messed-up country.
 
This slandering of taxation is laughable. Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesars…

That is what Bernie Sanders and other progressive and social-democratic candidates propose; using tax revenue for the common good. I can’t for the life of me figure out why this is so controversial to so many Christians in this country.
I have no problem with taxation for the common good. I have problems with taxation to pay for abortion, sterilization, and contraception and the myriad government programs that promote all of them. I have problems with government educational programs that are sadly lacking but seek to curtail parental choice in education. I have problems with working away from my family to provide money for those “in need” to have things I passionately believe to be anti-God.

I don’t see what some Christians have against a person getting to make money for their time, talent, and initiative. Because the idea that everyone should be promised the same outcome is a twisted form of Christianity at best.
 
You better not vote at all then, because the Republicans will affirm the ‘right’ of states to murder their citizens via the death penalty. Oh yeah, and they’re likely to send Americans overseas to die as well. Plenty of destruction of human life will continue to occur, and may expand, with a republican in the White House.

If we are called to never vote for any candidate that advocates or will further the destruction of human life, there will be no “catholic vote” because no Catholic could ever vote for anyone in this messed-up country.
So Millions of soldiers are dying? Millions of unfortunate incarcerated men and women are dying? No. It’s a matter of scope and scale. This isn’t either/or, we should work to change death penalty laws. We should try to end unjust wars. But we can’t throw the babies, ha-, out with the bath water. Millions of babies have died–55 Million plus–since 1973. So that has to be stopped. We have to keep pushing just because of the dreadful size of the thing. That doesn’t mean we can’t work to change other things, too. It’s just easier to push with people who already are willing to work with you than change the people who are vehemently opposed to what you want.
 
I have problems with taxation to pay for abortion, sterilization, and contraception and the myriad government programs that promote all of them.
I completely agree, at least in regard to abortion, the other two constitute a grey area in my mind, but that’s a subject for another thread. Regardless, that ship sailed long ago, and those things are not about to be illegal in America anytime soon. As I said, our attention is best focused on other areas of gross injustice in this country, areas where we can actually make significant change.
I have problems with government educational programs that are sadly lacking but seek to curtail parental choice in education.
Parental choice is great. I have no problem with private options and homeschooling. However not at the expense of a tuition-free public system of both primary and higher education. Education is an economic necessity, and given the high tuition rates and the unbearable financial strain those put on poor and working people, it should be publicly funded. Let the well-off send their kids to private universities, but let us working people have the option of attending a tuition-free community college.
I don’t see what some Christians have against a person getting to make money for their time, talent, and initiative.
Who has a problem with that? Certainly not me. I believe in private business and free enterprise. Yet not an unregulated free market. A social market economy is best for all economic actors. Publicly funded healthcare, roads/infrastructure, education, etc while encouraging and respecting private business in all other areas.
Because the idea that everyone should be promised the same outcome is a twisted form of Christianity at best.
No one is advocating that here. We’re not communists. We just don’t think working people should get terribly sick and possibly get so sick that they put themselves in danger of death, all because another doctors visit would mean crippling debt. We don’t want to see desperate poor women choosing abortion because its cheaper than delivering their baby. We don’t want to see young men and women stuck in poverty because getting an education was too expensive. We believe in equal opportunity, and for that to exist we need universal single-payer healthcare and education.
 
You better not vote at all then, because the Republicans will affirm the ‘right’ of states to murder their citizens via the death penalty. Oh yeah, and they’re likely to send Americans overseas to die as well. Plenty of destruction of human life will continue to occur, and may expand, with a republican in the White House.

If we are called to never vote for any candidate that advocates or will further the destruction of human life, there will be no “catholic vote” because no Catholic could ever vote for anyone in this messed-up country.
I’m sure you must not be aware of these numbers, so I’ll post them for you.

abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/
Estimated 974,510 abortions took place in 2014 in the U.S.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war
Iraq War/Afghanistan Wars 2001–present 6,717 American military killed

deathpenaltyinfo.org/executions-year
Total since 1976 (including 2016): 1425 executions in the US

So, are you really concerned with saving the most lives, or do you just not believe the life of the unborn child is worth saving?
 
Well, one thing I DIDN’T ask for was to be psychoanalyzed. Ad hominem is a big pet peeve of mine.

Yes, of course I already think my reasoning is sound, but I submit to the Church and wanted to double-check that voting in a such a way wasn’t forbidden. So far, no one has quoted a Church authority that has said so. The closest anyone has come was Tim Staples, but he is hardly an authority. He’s a lay apologist.
I’m a professor of theology at a Catholic college, and this semester I’m teaching Moral Theology in addition to my usual Christology class. From the Catechism:

“Catholics have a moral obligation to promote the common good through the exercise of their voting privileges (cf. CCC 2240). It is not just civil authorities who have responsibility for a country. “Service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community” (CCC 2239). This means citizens should participate in the political process at the ballot box.”

politicalresponsibility.com/voterguide.htm
 
If ones reason tells one that it is ok to kill a little baby and that it is a mothers right to do so
  • *then ones reason is not working properly. *
And one is not to be given that sort of office.

One does not want someone in the office of President whose reason is not working properly on such a serious and basic reality.
 
To the issue at hand, I’d like to know why childbirth - choosing life - is so blooming expensive compared to abortion. It’s oh-so-easy to harp on all the millions Planned Parenthood makes killing babies. What about how expensive it is to give birth at a hospital? Why don’t any Republicans take steps to make childbirth more affordable? 🤷
I watched a series of documentaries on Netflix - thebusinessofbeingborn.com/ - and it opened my eyes as to why the expense of having a baby is so high. It really resonated with me.

I had my babies 30 years ago and two of the three were all natural with very little medical intervention. My second was born 30 minutes after arriving at the hospital and the doctor truly did little more than catch him. Thirty minutes later I got up and went to the bathroom.

My third was not as easy as there were some complications with him more so than with my ability to have him but I still did not allow more medical intervention than necessary. He was born a little small and a little tired but perfect and healthy. And most of all I was able to care for him from the minute he was born because I wasn’t limited in ability by drugs.

My point is having a baby is expensive because we as consumers of health care make it so. Rather than letting her body do the work it was designed to do, give birth, we allow medical professionals to make it a medical procedure. How many women under the age of 40 would not have a baby without an epidural? How many women consent to C-sections because they’re tired of being in labor?

DISCLAIMER - I know there are many times when a C-section is a life saving procedure and saves the lives of countless mothers and babies. I’m am not talking about those C-sections, so please don’t bash me for my position.
 
So, are you really concerned with saving the most lives, or do you just not believe the life of the unborn child is worth saving?
How dare you. You’re really gonna accuse me of not valuing the life of the unborn, just because I won’t vote for the social-darwinists of the GOP? Where did I EVER say that abortion was not an evil? Don’t put words in my mouth or accuse me of not caring about that issue. What an asinine comment.

Of course we should work to end abortion, it is a gross evil. I’m with you 100%. But it is not going to change any time soon. Its a sad fact. However we can make progress in closing the atrocious wealth gap in this country, and the fact that millions of Americans are struggling in desperate poverty.
 
How dare you. You’re really gonna accuse me of not valuing the life of the unborn, just because I won’t vote for the social-darwinists of the GOP? Where did I EVER say that abortion was not an evil? Don’t put words in my mouth or accuse me of not caring about that issue. What an asinine comment.

Of course we should work to end abortion, it is a gross evil. I’m with you 100%. But it is not going to change any time soon. Its a sad fact. However we can make progress in closing the atrocious wealth gap in this country, and the fact that millions of Americans are struggling in desperate poverty.
I, too, am against abortion 100%, however I, too, believe we cannot choose a president based on this one issue alone. If the financial situation of many people becomes even worse, more people are going to opt for abortion.
 
If ones reason tells one that it is ok to kill a little baby and that it is a mothers right to do so
  • *then ones reason is not working properly. *
And one is not to be given that sort of office.

One does not want someone in the office of President whose reason is not working properly on such a serious and basic reality.
 
Pope Francis has also said that we should not focus on one issue…abortion is already considered evil by the Catholic Church and Catholics should be aware of casting votes for those candidates who are pro abortion…Pope Francis also mentioned poverty as an issue which Catholics should focus on…there are millions of children die each year through the effects of poverty…starvation…malnutrition…so why isn’t this issue addressed to our elected officials…is it because it’s happening to children overseas and not relevant to our elections…you would think that those who oppose abortion (which I do) would be shouting from the rooftops with the same passion as we do about abortion…we are by far the richest nation on earth…we do have tremendous influence on the rest of the world…so don’t we have a duty as Catholics to pressure those who we vote for to state that they will do all that is humanly possible to ease the suffering of those millions of children who are dying every year…like Pope Francis has said…we need to focus on other issues as well…and that is not denying the crucial importance of abortion.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishops-embrace-pope-francis-benedict-in-voting-document-89877/
 
Let me get my complaints about him out of the way first.

He’s politically pro-choice. Annoyingly so since, to get enough voters to make a difference he has to appeal to the culture of death on that issue. I’m kind of concerned about how he will approach law enforcement in America. There is talk about the demilitarization of the police, which, in the face of increasing domestic terrorism is a silly idea. Disarming your own force and disarming the people is a grave matter in my opinion.

On the other hand, abortion and gay marriage are losing battles for Catholics on the political field. To be honest, I don’t know why we’re still fighting those battles on a political level. That being said, Bernie Sanders is very Christlike on some more pressing matters. I say more pressing in the sense that a favorable outcome can actually be achieved. He, like Christ, gets a sort of righteous anger at the fact that healthcare is run like a business which only gives good care to the rich. He says healthcare is kind of like the right to life. I think he’s right. And, that is consistent with our Catholic view of abortion.

On to my question. I think Bernie Sanders is one of he most sincere candidates. That exhibits the virtue of honesty. I like his Christlike quality of being angered at injustice, too. I want to vote for him. My reasoning for thinking I can vote for him without sinning despite his view on abortion is that we can only take what we can. It is similar to the just war doctrine. A war might be just, but if there is no chance of winning the war, then it would be unjust to wage it. You’d just be wasting the lives of your own troops. So it is on issues like abortion and gay marriage. We aren’t going to win a Catholic view in politics. It’s just not going to happen. But Bernie Sanders seems to be the only one who is Christlike on issues of healthcare and education. Any thoughts?
Why would you want to vote for someone who wants to make the Federal government even bigger? Good grief, our Constitution is all about a limited Federal entity and allowing the people to have the maximum amount of liberty possible. Why do you want other people making decisions for you that you should be making for yourself?
 
How dare you. You’re really gonna accuse me of not valuing the life of the unborn, just because I won’t vote for the social-darwinists of the GOP? Where did I EVER say that abortion was not an evil? Don’t put words in my mouth or accuse me of not caring about that issue. What an asinine comment.

Of course we should work to end abortion, it is a gross evil. I’m with you 100%. But it is not going to change any time soon. Its a sad fact. However we can make progress in closing the atrocious wealth gap in this country, and the fact that millions of Americans are struggling in desperate poverty.
No, because you said this:

Originally Posted by ALoveDivine View Post
You better not vote at all then, because the Republicans will affirm the ‘right’ of states to murder their citizens via the death penalty. Oh yeah, and they’re likely to send Americans overseas to die as well. Plenty of destruction of human life will continue to occur, and may expand, with a republican in the White House.

Where is all the outrage for the unborn life?
 
Healthcare is different. When hospitals were purely Christian, patients didn’t pay a dime. The fact that food, water, etc. are paid for is a red herring.
How is it different besides you saying so? There are places like food banks, where you can get food and shelters provide a place to stay or a change of cloths all without “paying a dime”. Even if healthcare was “free”, you would still be paying for it through much higher taxes.
 
Pope Francis has also said that we should not focus on one issue…abortion is already considered evil by the Catholic Church and Catholics should be aware of casting votes for those candidates who are pro abortion…Pope Francis also mentioned poverty as an issue which Catholics should focus on…there are millions of children die each year through the effects of poverty…starvation…malnutrition…so why isn’t this issue addressed to our elected officials…is it because it’s happening to children overseas and not relevant to our elections…you would think that those who oppose abortion (which I do) would be shouting from the rooftops with the same passion as we do about abortion…we are by far the richest nation on earth…we do have tremendous influence on the rest of the world…so don’t we have a duty as Catholics to pressure those who we vote for to state that they will do all that is humanly possible to ease the suffering of those millions of children who are dying every year…like Pope Francis has said…we need to focus on other issues as well…and that is not denying the crucial importance of abortion.

catholicnewsagency.com/news/bishops-embrace-pope-francis-benedict-in-voting-document-89877/
👍
 
Even if healthcare was “free”, you would still be paying for it through much higher taxes.
Yes, and that’s absolutely fine. At least that way poor people could actually have healthcare. When something extraordinarily expensive is paid for out of pocket, only the well-off can afford it. When the same thing is paid for through taxation, all have access to it regardless of socio-economic status. With something as important as healthcare, all should have access to it. I’m completely fine with higher taxes for such things.
 
If the financial situation of many people becomes even worse, more people are going to opt for abortion.
This is a terrible excuse for having an abortion.
Also, if a persons reason for voting for an anti-life candidate is because a pro-life candidate doesn’t help the pro-life cause, then how can you justify voting for a social liberal? Obama, nor any Democrat, has made my life financially easier.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top