Is It The Bible, Or Is It The Church?

[dosdog]

No but to say that the Catholic Church is the same as the one started in the first century is ludicrous.

1 Timothy 4 11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth: but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity. 13 Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. 15 Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all.

 

[fbl9]

My nonDenom chuch was started by the senior pastor who had a call from Christ to start a congregation. It is one of many, many congregations when taken together orm Christs Church here on earth.

just like you said Hisalone your church was not founded by Christ Himself but by a mere man.there is no union of doctrine among non-denom churches,they are as different as the persons who try to teach in them…what was wrong with the church that your man was the head of?oh it wasn’t founded by him(the pastor).

 

[Cathdefender]

Many nonCatholics, myself included have rejected the Catholic Church as the church that Christ founded.

May I ask what reasons, what proof that you have otherwise stating that this isn’t so, and what Scripture lines prove otherwise.
Although there are many, many early church fathers providing this information, especially Ignatius which is my signature, please tell me what other religions were available at the time of Christ. The Orthodox had already broke away from the true faith in the year 1057.
The Protestants hadn’t seen the light of day until the 1500’s, so please, prove to me your source that Jesus Christ had not started the Catholic church, and if in fact, who did?

Do you see my signature here? It was taken from the year 110 A.D.

 

[Cathdefender]

My nonDenom chuch was started by the senior pastor who had a call from Christ to start a congregation. It is one of many, many congregations when taken together orm Christs Church here on earth.

You see Hisalone, every other church is man-made. This is the problem. Jesus didn’t start 30,000 denominations with contradictory beliefs.

 

[Swan]

I don’t think he started either one. Just personal opinion. All interpretations of the Bible are subjective. Believing you are guided by the Spirit is subjective. Believing the Bible is inspired is subjective. No one knows who wrote what or when. As a result, I have come to the conclusion that that I cannot depend on it as being the only word of the only god. Sorry, know this will tick you folks off, but you asked.

 

[Hisalone]

just like you said Hisalone your church was not founded by Christ Himself but by a mere man.there is no union of doctrine among non-denom churches,they are as different as the persons who try to teach in them…what was wrong with the church that your man was the head of?oh it wasn’t founded by him(the pastor).

Oh but it was. Christ who has rose and is alive intstructs many either through dreams visions or other promptings to sart a congregation. God has led thses men to start a church. Therefore it is right to say it is He that started my church better said my congregation.

 

[Hisalone]

You see Hisalone, every other church is man-made. This is the problem. Jesus didn’t start 30,000 denominations with contradictory beliefs.

No my friend the Catholic Church is a man made institution that falsely claims some type of Christ made authority

 

[Hisalone]

May I ask what reasons, what proof that you have otherwise stating that this isn’t so, and what Scripture lines prove otherwise.
Although there are many, many early church fathers providing this information, especially Ignatius which is my signature, please tell me what other religions were available at the time of Christ. The Orthodox had already broke away from the true faith in the year 1057.
The Protestants hadn’t seen the light of day until the 1500’s, so please, prove to me your source that Jesus Christ had not started the Catholic church, and if in fact, who did?

Do you see my signature here? It was taken from the year 110 A.D.

The Catholic Church began a long road to apostate when it embraced pagan rites symbols and customs. She became fully apostate when she left the true gospel that all can be save through Christ and embraced a gosel that all are saved through the church and taught that people could buy themselves out of purgatory.

 

[dosdog]

Oh but it was. Christ who has rose and is alive intstructs many either through dreams visions or other promptings to sart a congregation. God has led thses men to start a church. Therefore it is right to say it is He that started my church better said my congregation.

Bilaam was the best potential leader the gentiles had to offer paralleling Moshe in his supreme righteousness. This is why God chose him to be the prophet and leader of the gentiles. But this was all before he became a prophet. Once Bilaam became a prophet, he was spiritually destroyed. He was not able to handle the powerful experience of prophecy and it was at this point that he came to be the wicked Bilaam that we know Becoming a prophet corrupted him. At Sinai, God chose the Jewish People to be His holy nation and nation of priests, leading humanity to ethics, morals, and proper beliefs.
aish.com/torahportion/kolyaakov/-Success_That_Hurts-.asp

Testing Prophetic Claims
Over the last 200 years a number of people have claimed to be religious prophets with special spiritual authority from God. These include Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah’s Witnesses), Ellen G. White (Seventh-day Adventists), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), and Joseph Smith (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Each started an organization which claimed to be the one true Christian Church, each had unique teachings, and each appealed to the Bible to some degree as their basis for spiritual authority. Yet, each “prophet’s” teachings contradict those of the others.
irr.org/MIT/jsfalpro.html

Montanism- , apocalyptic movement of the 2d cent. It arose in Phrygia (c.172) under the leadership of a certain Montanus and two female prophets, Prisca and Maximillia, whose entranced utterances were deemed oracles of the Holy Spirit. They had an immediate expectation of Judgment Day, and they encouraged ecstatic prophesying and strict asceticism. They believed that a Christian fallen from grace could never be redeemed. Prisca claimed that Christ had appeared to her in female form. she was excommunicated,

They belived that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles
newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm

1. Called by its followers “the New Prophecy”, this movement is known to us as Montanism after its founder Montanus, a convert to Christianity. Around the year 170 he began to proclaim to his fellow believers that he was a prophet, that he was the very mouthpiece of that Spirit which the Lord had promised would “teach all things and guide into all truth” (John 14:26; 16:13).

Montanus was soon joined by two women, Priscilla and Maximilla who like him delivered oracles in a state of ecstacy, speaking not in their own persons but in that of the Holy Spirit.
2. Montanus and his companions represented a revival of the apocalyptic spirit and announced the forthcoming end of the world. The Lord was about to return, and the new Jerusalem would be set up in the vicinity of the town of Pepuza in Phrygia. As preparation for the end of all things they purified themselves and cut themselves loose from their attachments to society. The Phrygians, as they were frequently called, fasted longer and more elaborately than other Christians and discouraged marriage.
theologywebsite.com/history/montanus.shtml

Read Numbers 16

 

[Hisalone]

Bilaam was the best potential leader the gentiles had to offer paralleling Moshe in his supreme righteousness. This is why God chose him to be the prophet and leader of the gentiles. But this was all before he became a prophet. Once Bilaam became a prophet, he was spiritually destroyed. He was not able to handle the powerful experience of prophecy and it was at this point that he came to be the wicked Bilaam that we know Becoming a prophet corrupted him. At Sinai, God chose the Jewish People to be His holy nation and nation of priests, leading humanity to ethics, morals, and proper beliefs.
aish.com/torahportion/kolyaakov/-Success_That_Hurts-.asp

Testing Prophetic Claims
Over the last 200 years a number of people have claimed to be religious prophets with special spiritual authority from God. These include Charles Taze Russell (Jehovah’s Witnesses), Ellen G. White (Seventh-day Adventists), Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science), and Joseph Smith (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). Each started an organization which claimed to be the one true Christian Church, each had unique teachings, and each appealed to the Bible to some degree as their basis for spiritual authority. Yet, each “prophet’s” teachings contradict those of the others.
irr.org/MIT/jsfalpro.html

Montanism- , apocalyptic movement of the 2d cent. It arose in Phrygia (c.172) under the leadership of a certain Montanus and two female prophets, Prisca and Maximillia, whose entranced utterances were deemed oracles of the Holy Spirit. They had an immediate expectation of Judgment Day, and they encouraged ecstatic prophesying and strict asceticism. They believed that a Christian fallen from grace could never be redeemed. Prisca claimed that Christ had appeared to her in female form. she was excommunicated,

They belived that the prophecies of the Montanists superseded the doctrines proclaimed by the Apostles
newadvent.org/cathen/10521a.htm

1. Called by its followers “the New Prophecy”, this movement is known to us as Montanism after its founder Montanus, a convert to Christianity. Around the year 170 he began to proclaim to his fellow believers that he was a prophet, that he was the very mouthpiece of that Spirit which the Lord had promised would “teach all things and guide into all truth” (John 14:26; 16:13).

Montanus was soon joined by two women, Priscilla and Maximilla who like him delivered oracles in a state of ecstacy, speaking not in their own persons but in that of the Holy Spirit.
2. Montanus and his companions represented a revival of the apocalyptic spirit and announced the forthcoming end of the world. The Lord was about to return, and the new Jerusalem would be set up in the vicinity of the town of Pepuza in Phrygia. As preparation for the end of all things they purified themselves and cut themselves loose from their attachments to society. The Phrygians, as they were frequently called, fasted longer and more elaborately than other Christians and discouraged marriage.
theologywebsite.com/history/montanus.shtml

Read Numbers 16

Balaam taught the Jewish people to comitt sexual imorality and sacrifice to pagan idols. These are the false doctrines of Balaam which John Hagee easily recognizes in a present day church.

 

[thecoach]

Oh but it was. Christ who has rose and is alive intstructs many either through dreams visions or other promptings to sart a congregation. God has led thses men to start a church. Therefore it is right to say it is He that started my church better said my congregation.

Plus Paul alludes to other churches already in existence as he went on his missionary journeys. And Jesus Himself said that those who were against Him are for Him, this is one of those minor details forgotten when the RCC goes on its supremacy trips.

 

[dosdog]

Plus Paul alludes to other churches already in existence as he went on his missionary journeys. And Jesus Himself said that those who were against Him are for Him, this is one of those minor details forgotten when the RCC goes on its supremacy trips.

The attempts to stamp out the new Hellenistic Jewish heresy only resulted in its spread outside of Jerusalem and Judea. Some of the Hellenistic Jewish Christians (as represented by Stephen in the Book of Acts) were killed during this period, but most survived and fled from Jerusalem, founding new Christian communities in the process

The new Christian communities sprang up wherever the Hellenistic Jewish Christians settled. Suddenly there were churches in Samaria, Cyprus, and Syria. When word of their existence percolated back to the Twelve Palestinian Apostles in Jerusalem, they sent delegates to approve of the work conducted by the Hellenistic Apostles. The spread of Christianity beyond Jerusalem was not due to the evangelizing efforts of the Twelve Apostles, but resulted from the myriad of unnamed, Hellenistic Jewish Christians fleeing persecution. the Hellenistic Apostles accepted that the new communities were extensions of the Jerusalem community
64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:5VqitDxOqIsJ:www.writerscafe.org/writing/badwolf/247968/+Church+in+Jerusalem+WritersCafe.org&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

 

[thecoach]

The attempts to stamp out the new Hellenistic Jewish heresy only resulted in its spread outside of Jerusalem and Judea. Some of the Hellenistic Jewish Christians (as represented by Stephen in the Book of Acts) were killed during this period, but most survived and fled from Jerusalem, founding new Christian communities in the process

The new Christian communities sprang up wherever the Hellenistic Jewish Christians settled. Suddenly there were churches in Samaria, Cyprus, and Syria. When word of their existence percolated back to the Twelve Palestinian Apostles in Jerusalem, they sent delegates to approve of the work conducted by the Hellenistic Apostles. The spread of Christianity beyond Jerusalem was not due to the evangelizing efforts of the Twelve Apostles, but resulted from the myriad of unnamed, Hellenistic Jewish Christians fleeing persecution. the Hellenistic Apostles accepted that the new communities were extensions of the Jerusalem community
64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:5VqitDxOqIsJ:www.writerscafe.org/writing/badwolf/247968/+Church+in+Jerusalem+WritersCafe.org&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

and speaking of the Jerusalem community…you seem to indicate that it was of primary importance,(“the Hellenistic Apostles accepted that the new communities were extensions of the Jerusalem community”). Then why was Peter NOT the head of this community, but rather James?

 

[dosdog]

and speaking of the Jerusalem community…you seem to indicate that it was of primary importance,(“the Hellenistic Apostles accepted that the new communities were extensions of the Jerusalem community”). Then why was Peter NOT the head of this community, but rather James?

at the juncture of three important trade routes, it was a large and sophisticated city when Christianity began. The population at the time has been estimated as perhaps a half million, and not less than three-fifths of that amount; although it was a Greek speaking Hellenistic city, there were large numbers of every kind of Near-Eastern nationality, and just as many different kinds of religions. There was also a large Jewish community

The Christian message came early to Antioch; after the martyrdom of Stephen in Jerusalem about 35 A.D., many Christians left the city to go to Cyprus, to Phoenicia (Lebanon), and Antioch. The apostle Barnabas was in Antioch in A.D. 38, and he brought the apostle Paul from Tarsus to help him. They stayed in Antioch a year, having made many converts. According to one of the oldest and strongest of traditions, St. Peter was the actual founder of the Christian church in Antioch,
stmichaelsgeneva.org/Church%20at%20Antioch.htm

 

[thecoach]

at the juncture of three important trade routes, it was a large and sophisticated city when Christianity began. The population at the time has been estimated as perhaps a half million, and not less than three-fifths of that amount; although it was a Greek speaking Hellenistic city, there were large numbers of every kind of Near-Eastern nationality, and just as many different kinds of religions. There was also a large Jewish community

The Christian message came early to Antioch; after the martyrdom of Stephen in Jerusalem about 35 A.D., many Christians left the city to go to Cyprus, to Phoenicia (Lebanon), and Antioch. The apostle Barnabas was in Antioch in A.D. 38, and he brought the apostle Paul from Tarsus to help him. They stayed in Antioch a year, having made many converts. According to one of the oldest and strongest of traditions, St. Peter was the actual founder of the Christian church in Antioch,
stmichaelsgeneva.org/Chur…%20Antioch.htm

I read your post twice to make sure I wasnt missing something( I have been guilty of that before), but I am sure I have not. You have not answered my question. You are the one that placed importance on the Church at Jerusalem, so that is where by all logic Peter should have been head, but he is not, James is. Also, strong tradition is not a very strong answer either. After all, in the Petrine epitsles, wouldnt logic dictate that if he was the head of Antioch, he would have expressed greetings from there in his letters?

 

[dosdog]

I read your post twice to make sure I wasnt missing something( I have been guilty of that before), but I am sure I have not. You have not answered my question. You are the one that placed importance on the Church at Jerusalem, so that is where by all logic Peter should have been head, but he is not, James is. Also, strong tradition is not a very strong answer either. After all, in the Petrine epitsles, wouldnt logic dictate that if he was the head of Antioch, he would have expressed greetings from there in his letters?

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Many Catholics have heard that “kepha” is used in both places in this verse ("You are Peter [kepha] and on this rock [kepha] I will build my Church . . . "),

So here 'tis:

jimmyakin.org/2005/04/while_were_at_i.html

 

[thecoach]

Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Many Catholics have heard that “kepha” is used in both places in this verse ("You are Peter [kepha] and on this rock [kepha] I will build my Church . . . "),

So here 'tis:

jimmyakin.org/2005/04/while_were_at_i.html

Yes, I know the reference, it is ONE verse out of an entire FOUR Gospels that mentions it. However, it STILL does not answer my question. I have yet to receive from anyone a valid, logical answer to that question. Rather, the only logical anser is one that a CAtholic could not face, namely, that there is no Petrine Papacy that was recognized at Jerusalem, putting the whole Papal Succession into doubt.

 

[allhers]

No my friend the Catholic Church is a man made institution that falsely claims some type of Christ made authority

First to answer the OP, Christ founded the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church compiled and wrote the Holy Bible (compiled the writings of the Old and wrote the New Testament).
Now Hisalone, may I ask who told you this that you have claimed or how did you alone come to this conclusion that you stated?

 

[dosdog]

Yes, I know the reference, it is ONE verse out of an entire FOUR Gospels that mentions it. However, it STILL does not answer my question. I have yet to receive from anyone a valid, logical answer to that question. Rather, the only logical anser is one that a CAtholic could not face, namely, that there is no Petrine Papacy that was recognized at Jerusalem, putting the whole Papal Succession into doubt.

The Eastern Church Defends Petrine Primacy and the Papacy
St. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (306-311 A.D.):
Head of the catechetical school in Alexandria, he became bishop around A.D. 300, reigning for about eleven years, and dying a martyr’s death.

Peter, set above the Apostles. (Peter of Alexandria, Canon. ix, Galland, iv. p. 98)

St. Anthony of Egypt (330 A.D.):

Peter, the Prince of the Apostles (Anthony, Epist. xvii. Galland, iv p. 687).

St. Athanasius (362 A.D.):

Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).

The Chief, Peter. (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)

St. Macarius of Egypt (371 A.D.):

The Chief, Peter. (Macarius, De Patientia, n. 3, p. 180)

Moses was succeeded by Peter, who had committed to his hands the new Church of Christ, and the true priesthood. (Macarius, Hom. xxvi. n. 23, p. 101)

web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm

 

[thecoach]

The Eastern Church Defends Petrine Primacy and the Papacy
St. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (306-311 A.D.):
Head of the catechetical school in Alexandria, he became bishop around A.D. 300, reigning for about eleven years, and dying a martyr’s death.

Peter, set above the Apostles. (Peter of Alexandria, Canon. ix, Galland, iv. p. 98)

St. Anthony of Egypt (330 A.D.):

Peter, the Prince of the Apostles (Anthony, Epist. xvii. Galland, iv p. 687).

St. Athanasius (362 A.D.):

Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).

The Chief, Peter. (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)

St. Macarius of Egypt (371 A.D.):

The Chief, Peter. (Macarius, De Patientia, n. 3, p. 180)

Moses was succeeded by Peter, who had committed to his hands the new Church of Christ, and the true priesthood. (Macarius, Hom. xxvi. n. 23, p. 101)

web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm

I see you refues or cannot answer my question directly, so never mind.