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Des
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The only thing that backs up is our ‘Invincible Ignorance’ teaching.
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thecoach
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SO by this logic, the true church founded on the Rock is the Eastern Church, not the Roman. Either way, the teaching of the Roman Papacy crumbles under logic.The Eastern Church Defends Petrine Primacy and the Papacy
St. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (306-311 A.D.):
Head of the catechetical school in Alexandria, he became bishop around A.D. 300, reigning for about eleven years, and dying a martyr’s death.
Peter, set above the Apostles. (Peter of Alexandria, Canon. ix, Galland, iv. p. 98)
St. Anthony of Egypt (330 A.D.):
Peter, the Prince of the Apostles (Anthony, Epist. xvii. Galland, iv p. 687).
St. Athanasius (362 A.D.):
Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).
The Chief, Peter. (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)
St. Macarius of Egypt (371 A.D.):
The Chief, Peter. (Macarius, De Patientia, n. 3, p. 180)
Moses was succeeded by Peter, who had committed to his hands the new Church of Christ, and the true priesthood. (Macarius, Hom. xxvi. n. 23, p. 101)
web.globalserve.net/~bumblebee/ecclesia/patriarchs.htm
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dosdog
Guest
Acts Of Apostles 12I see you refues or cannot answer my question directly, so never mind.
1 And at the same time, Herod the king stretched forth his hands, to afflict some of the church. 2 And he killed James, the brother of John, with the sword. 3 And seeing that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to take up Peter also. Now it was in the days of the Azymes
A Galilean, son of Zebedee, brother of John (with whom he was called a “Son of Thunder”)
12apostlesofthecatholicchurch.com/james.html
1 Timothy 4
11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth: but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity. 13 Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. 15 Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all.
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thecoach
Guest
Your reference actually reinforces the primacy of James over Peter, in that Herod saw James as more of a threat and had him targeted first. Once the Petrine Papacy is in doubt, all that is hinged upon it(Tradition and Teachings from Petrine/Papal authority) are all in question.Acts Of Apostles 12
1 And at the same time, Herod the king stretched forth his hands, to afflict some of the church. 2 And he killed James, the brother of John, with the sword. 3 And seeing that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded to take up Peter also. Now it was in the days of the Azymes
A Galilean, son of Zebedee, brother of John (with whom he was called a “Son of Thunder”)
12apostlesofthecatholicchurch.com/james.html
1 Timothy 4
11 These things command and teach. 12 Let no man despise thy youth: but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity. 13 Till I come, attend unto reading, to exhortation, and to doctrine. 14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophesy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. 15 Meditate upon these things, be wholly in these things: that thy profiting may be manifest to all.
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dosdog
Guest
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Your reference actually reinforces the primacy of James over Peter, in that Herod saw James as more of a threat and had him targeted first. Once the Petrine Papacy is in doubt, all that is hinged upon it(Tradition and Teachings from Petrine/Papal authority) are all in question.
Many Catholics have heard that “kepha” is used in both places in this verse ("You are Peter [kepha] and on this rock [kepha] I will build my Church . . . "),
So here 'tis:
jimmyakin.org/2005/04/while_were_at_i.html
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thecoach
Guest
No your going into circular reasoning, back to the standard ONE verse. It then seems that logic cannot be refuted, and that there is really no SOLID (one verse is NOT solid) Scriptural basis for Petrine Papacy, in fact, Scripture, as we have seen here, contradicts it, and in fact, may mend more credence to the Eastern churches in terms of authority.Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Many Catholics have heard that “kepha” is used in both places in this verse ("You are Peter [kepha] and on this rock [kepha] I will build my Church . . . "),
So here 'tis:
jimmyakin.org/2005/04/while_were_at_i.html
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dosdog
Guest
It was in Antioch that the followers of Jesus Christ converted by Paul and Barnabas were first called Christians [Acts 11:26]. Antioch, especially after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, became a center for Christianity.No your going into circular reasoning, back to the standard ONE verse. It then seems that logic cannot be refuted, and that there is really no SOLID (one verse is NOT solid) Scriptural basis for Petrine Papacy, in fact, Scripture, as we have seen here, contradicts it, and in fact, may mend more credence to the Eastern churches in terms of authority.
The first Bishop was St. Peter before his travels to Rome. The third Bishop was the Apostolic Father St. Ignatius of Antioch. Antioch became one of the five original Patriarchates
experiencefestival.com/a/…ory/id/1748222
In the year 95, Clement, the fourth bishop of Rome, wrote a response to the Corinthians instructing them to receive back the bishops who were expelled by a turbulent faction. After explaining that the hierarchy was of divine origin, he said in part, “But if there are any who refuse to heed the declaration He [the Holy Spirit] has made through our lips, let them not doubt the gravity of the guilt and the peril in which they involve themselves” (1Clement 59:1). So now we find that even before the last apostle had died, the bishop of Rome was directing the affairs of another church. A few years later in the year 107, Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged Rome’s authority when he addressed the Roman church as “presiding over the brotherhood of love.”
Around 189, there was a controversy between the churches of Asia and the rest of the Christian world. Eusebius tells us that Victor, bishop of Rome, directed that they conform. Polycrates of Ephesus resisted him. Victor replied with an excommunication. When Irenaeus intervened and pleaded Polycrates’ case, Victor withdrew the excommunication. Although there was disagreement, the resistance of the Asian bishops did not deny Rome’s authority (The History of the Church 5:23-25).
staycatholic.com/the_pope.htm
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thecoach
Guest
Please refer to my original question as to why Peter was no head at Jerusalem. All this is irrelevant. And as much as I think it is pretty cool how you find all this stuff, how about less cutting and pasting and more writing of your own understanding. For so far, all you cutting and pasting has done is reinforce what I am saying.It was in Antioch that the followers of Jesus Christ converted by Paul and Barnabas were first called Christians [Acts 11:26]. Antioch, especially after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, became a center for Christianity.
The first Bishop was St. Peter before his travels to Rome. The third Bishop was the Apostolic Father St. Ignatius of Antioch. Antioch became one of the five original Patriarchates
experiencefestival.com/a/…ory/id/1748222
In the year 95, Clement, the fourth bishop of Rome, wrote a response to the Corinthians instructing them to receive back the bishops who were expelled by a turbulent faction. After explaining that the hierarchy was of divine origin, he said in part, “But if there are any who refuse to heed the declaration He [the Holy Spirit] has made through our lips, let them not doubt the gravity of the guilt and the peril in which they involve themselves” (1Clement 59:1). So now we find that even before the last apostle had died, the bishop of Rome was directing the affairs of another church. A few years later in the year 107, Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged Rome’s authority when he addressed the Roman church as “presiding over the brotherhood of love.”
Around 189, there was a controversy between the churches of Asia and the rest of the Christian world. Eusebius tells us that Victor, bishop of Rome, directed that they conform. Polycrates of Ephesus resisted him. Victor replied with an excommunication. When Irenaeus intervened and pleaded Polycrates’ case, Victor withdrew the excommunication. Although there was disagreement, the resistance of the Asian bishops did not deny Rome’s authority (The History of the Church 5:23-25).
staycatholic.com/the_pope.htm
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dosdog
Guest
PAPAL PRIMACY AND THE COUNCIL OF NICAEAPlease refer to my original question as to why Peter was no head at Jerusalem. All this is irrelevant. And as much as I think it is pretty cool how you find all this stuff, how about less cutting and pasting and more writing of your own understanding. For so far, all you cutting and pasting has done is reinforce what I am saying.
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706eaw.asp
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thecoach
Guest
and more cutting and pasting. Can you not speak from your own understanding?PAPAL PRIMACY AND THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706eaw.asp
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dosdog
Guest
And Where is it recorded in the TORAH - Moses delegated his authority to the Sannhedrin ?and more cutting and pasting. Can you not speak from your own understanding?
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fbl9
Guest
Oh no being chaste is immoral,being celibate is immoral,not using birth control is immoral,being of pure mind is immoral,not committing adultry is immoral etc… good luck Hisalone finding the doctrines of the Church that teach immorality.Even better luck finding the doctrines that state we are to sacrifice to pagan idols…Balaam taught the Jewish people to comitt sexual imorality and sacrifice to pagan idols. These are the false doctrines of Balaam which John Hagee easily recognizes in a present day church.
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thecoach
Guest
from the article on your link…PAPAL PRIMACY AND THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706eaw.asp
“The Council of Jerusalem simply gave its approval to a decision already made by Peter”, however, in Acts 15, 13-19, "When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16” ‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’**
18that have been known for ages.[c]
Code:
19"It is my judgment, therefore,..."
D
Des
Guest
thecoach.
Where is this Reference that James was the head of the Church of Jerusalem when Peter was around and he likewise got the last say on things?
Where is this Reference that James was the head of the Church of Jerusalem when Peter was around and he likewise got the last say on things?
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dosdog
Guest
from the article on your link…
“The Council of Jerusalem simply gave its approval to a decision already made by Peter”, however, in Acts 15, 13-19, "When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16” ‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’**
18that have been known for ages.[c]
Therefore the person making the proclamation is James, not Peter. Paul and Barnabas also testify to their work among the Gentiles, not just Peter. He is not shown in any position of authority in this passage. Therefore, Scripture seems to contradict what is stated in the article, which I assume is the Catholic position. I will believe the Scripture over man-made invention, thanks.**Code:19"It is my judgment, therefore,..."
While Torah is silent on the details it is loud on telling Israel that they should judge for itself how to implement the commandments. Moses delegated, there was a time we had Judges, Sannhedrin etc.
Here You Coach- How to keep Shabbat is Man-Made
As if that is a novel concept? Of course the way Jews observe Shabbat is a product of the people. That’s exactly how it was intended to be.
Shalom
And Where is it recorded in the TORAH - Moses delegated his authority to the Sannhedrin ? Nowhere I know
While Bible is silent on the details it is loud on telling Catholics that they should judge for itself how to implement the Christs Teaching. Jesus delegated, there was a time we had Apostles, Churches etc.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Many Catholics have heard that “kepha” is used in both places in this verse ("You are Peter [kepha] and on this rock [kepha] I will build my Church . . . "),
So here 'tis:
jimmyakin.org/2005/04/while_were_at_i.html
T
thecoach
Guest
I see you have exhausted your resources by quoting the same thing for the third time. Therefore, I can only conclude that you cannot refute what I have written, and I have indeed shown the discrepency of the Petrine Papacy.While Torah is silent on the details it is loud on telling Israel that they should judge for itself how to implement the commandments. Moses delegated, there was a time we had Judges, Sannhedrin etc.
Here You Coach- How to keep Shabbat is Man-Made
As if that is a novel concept? Of course the way Jews observe Shabbat is a product of the people. That’s exactly how it was intended to be.
Shalom
And Where is it recorded in the TORAH - Moses delegated his authority to the Sannhedrin ? Nowhere I know
While Bible is silent on the details it is loud on telling Catholics that they should judge for itself how to implement the Christs Teaching. Jesus delegated, there was a time we had Apostles, Churches etc.
Matthew 16 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Many Catholics have heard that “kepha” is used in both places in this verse ("You are Peter [kepha] and on this rock [kepha] I will build my Church . . . "),
So here 'tis:
jimmyakin.org/2005/04/while_were_at_i.html
F
fbl9
Guest
did not Christ say "those who don’t listen to the CHURCH should be looked upon as publicians…"So it was He Himself that started the Church not some one with a “vision”(caps on church are for emphisis)so the churhc was already in existence He doesn’t need to start a new one.where is the antiquity in your church? nowhere you have no past.Oh but it was. Christ who has rose and is alive intstructs many either through dreams visions or other promptings to sart a congregation. God has led thses men to start a church. Therefore it is right to say it is He that started my church better said my congregation.
D
dosdog
Guest
None say Coach has a votedid not Christ say "those who don’t listen to the CHURCH should be looked upon as publicians…"So it was He Himself that started the Church not some one with a “vision”(caps on church are for emphisis)so the churhc was already in existence He doesn’t need to start a new one.
The Eastern Church Defends Petrine Primacy and the Papacy
St. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (306-311 A.D.):
Head of the catechetical school in Alexandria, he became bishop around A.D. 300, reigning for about eleven years, and dying a martyr’s death.
Peter, set above the Apostles. (Peter of Alexandria, Canon. ix, Galland, iv. p. 98)
St. Anthony of Egypt (330 A.D.):
Peter, the Prince of the Apostles (Anthony, Epist. xvii. Galland, iv p. 687).
St. Athanasius (362 A.D.):
Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).
The Chief, Peter. (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)
St. Macarius of Egypt (371 A.D.):
The Chief, Peter. (Macarius, De Patientia, n. 3, p. 180)
Moses was succeeded by Peter, who had committed to his hands the new Church of Christ, and the true priesthood. (Macarius, Hom. xxvi. n. 23, p. 101)
web.globalserve.net/~bumblebe…patriarchs.htm
T
thecoach
Guest
repeatedly cutting and pasting the same things changes nothingNone say Coach has a vote
The Eastern Church Defends Petrine Primacy and the Papacy
St. Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (306-311 A.D.):
Head of the catechetical school in Alexandria, he became bishop around A.D. 300, reigning for about eleven years, and dying a martyr’s death.
Peter, set above the Apostles. (Peter of Alexandria, Canon. ix, Galland, iv. p. 98)
St. Anthony of Egypt (330 A.D.):
Peter, the Prince of the Apostles (Anthony, Epist. xvii. Galland, iv p. 687).
St. Athanasius (362 A.D.):
Rome is called the Apostolic throne. (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35).
The Chief, Peter. (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)
St. Macarius of Egypt (371 A.D.):
The Chief, Peter. (Macarius, De Patientia, n. 3, p. 180)
Moses was succeeded by Peter, who had committed to his hands the new Church of Christ, and the true priesthood. (Macarius, Hom. xxvi. n. 23, p. 101)
web.globalserve.net/~bumblebe…patriarchs.htm
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dosdog
Guest
Start your own chuch - want a link? Pope Coachrepeatedly cutting and pasting the same things changes nothing
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