Is it time we welcome the gay community to ours?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

To be fair, I have gay friends who grew up Catholic who experienced it either in their parish or (in one case horrifyingly) in their family where fa*t and de were used almost without spare. To argue that there aren’t Catholics who jump on the “hate the sinners!” bandwagon of certain Protestant denominations is to deny reality. Just because the Church teaches one thing doesn’t mean its followers follow it. This is obviously true on the “liberal” side in terms of heterodoxy, but it is also true on the “conservative” side in terms of Pharisee-ical nonsense and hatred.

You have heard those words in Church, by clergy, or at a church sanctioned event? I doubt it. And if you have, shame on you for not stopping it then and there. I would.

Sometimes derogatory words are used. I work with youth in the Church. One thing that is very clear is that not one of them would use those words around me. If I hear them in the halls, or in passing conversation between a couple of high school kids, I speak up. It is quite common slang nowadays. (sadly) but it is not concrete evidence of hatred and intolerance. Rather just a giveaway to pop culture and ignorance.

Look, even in the world of football we saw this year a NFL team and players destroyed by the language you say you hear. IF it has no place in the NFL then it should have no place in our Church. I just challenge that it exists more in the CHurch than in society in general. I would say that most of the kids in our high school confirmation program, even the ones who use the derogatory words favor SS"M" It is our job as educators of the faith to show them why it cannot be. And when we do that, most often we are accused of being judgemental.

“I have friends who grew up catholic who…” Is not an accurate view of the Church’s view on anything.

 

[frobert]

That depends on who is defining the term ‘gay’. I know quite a few homosexuals, several of them as friends, one as a good friend, and all of them identify themselves as being ‘gay’. I know one of them who goes on ‘gay pride’ marches, but his ‘lifestyle’ (apart from his sexual relations) is no difference in appearance from any heterosexual. The others gay men I know don’t go on ‘gay pride’ marches or anything like that. They do not go about promoting homosexuality any more than the many cohabiting heterosexual couples I know take to the streets to promote heterosexual promiscuity.

I don’t know any homosexual man who refers to himself as SSA, they all refer to themselves as ‘gay’. Should we welcome these people into our Church? I think that if we seriously even have to consider such a question, we ought to be ashamed of ourselves.

Bravo!!!

emphasis mine.

 

[Captain_America]

I agree with the first part of your statement, we are asking that you have empathy for our struggles just as some of us struggle to have empathy for the intolerant in our churches.

worth noting to you is that my best friend, raised Catholic, will not go to church because he hates to see the liars, cheats and adulterers (the ones he mentioned are heterosexual) there!

I think the intolerant stay OUT of churches by and large, although being human, it’s likely to be inside churches as well. But I would gather that sinners are more likely to find compassion in a church than out on the street corner.

Just what does “empathy” mean? I mean, I have a horrible sin of pride, but I don’t go to church expecting people to hear my sob story or pat me on the back and tell me I’m fine as I am, etc. I think the best stuff I get, in this respect, in church is when I go to confession.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

That depends on who is defining the term ‘gay’. I know quite a few homosexuals, several of them as friends, one as a good friend, and all of them identify themselves as being ‘gay’. I know one of them who goes on ‘gay pride’ marches, but his ‘lifestyle’ (apart from his sexual relations) is no difference in appearance from any heterosexual. The others gay men I know don’t go on ‘gay pride’ marches or anything like that. They do not go about promoting homosexuality any more than the many cohabiting heterosexual couples I know take to the streets to promote heterosexual promiscuity.

I don’t know any homosexual man who refers to himself as SSA, they all refer to themselves as ‘gay’. Should we welcome these people into our Church? I think that if we seriously even have to consider such a question, we ought to be ashamed of ourselves.

Concretely and specifically, what exactly does “welcoming them into the church” mean? Approving a life style that is directly at odds with the moral teaching of the church? Your other posts would not suggest that. So what exactly does that mean?

Also, I’ve met any number of men with SSAs who find them problematic. They do not find that gay activists speak for them; they do not find that a sexually active homosexual lifestyle or the gay subculture fulfills them; and they don’t adopt that identity.

 

[SMGS127]

You have heard those words in Church, by clergy, or at a church sanctioned event? I doubt it. And if you have, shame on you for not stopping it then and there. I would.

Sometimes derogatory words are used. I work with youth in the Church. One thing that is very clear is that not one of them would use those words around me. If I hear them in the halls, or in passing conversation between a couple of high school kids, I speak up. It is quite common slang nowadays. (sadly) but it is not concrete evidence of hatred and intolerance. Rather just a giveaway to pop culture and ignorance.

No they heard those words among their parents or by other practicing Catholic adults in public. Most Catholics who use horribly derogatory terms still have the decency not to do them where their pastor could hear them. That doesn’t mean they don’t say them at home. And it’s not just words, it’s the entire culture. Parents railing at home about how evil gay people are (which isn’t Catholic teaching; only the sin is evil, not the person), parents using derogatory terms, parents saying that gay people only do what they do because they “hate God,” kicking gay children out of their homes, etc. are just some of the ways gay kids get turned off from religion at an early age. Is this more common in Protestant religions? Absolutely. Does this happen in Catholic households? Not as many, but yes. This needs to immediately stop; we need to question the parenting (both Catholic and non-Catholic) before we keep throwing the blame onto the “secular media” or “gay activists” or whatever scapegoat people want to use. The LGBT community would have absolutely zero power if parents did their jobs, INCLUDING providing an inclusive, loving home that is firm in morals but lacking in hatred.

 

[esieffe]

According to that timeline, it was unrecognized as a specific disease until clusters of rare forms of pneumonia began appearing among gay male populations within the United States. Before that, it was only apparent through a review many years later of rare cases of “unassociated” other diseases which were highly unusual in themselves. Look up Gaëtan Dugas, the man personally responsible for many early cases of AIDS in New York. Also read up on Robert Rayford, the first case of AIDS in the United States (though he was not recognized as such until 1987 and had died in 1969), who - according to his own testimony - was not a user of IV drugs and had never had a blood transfusion, leaving sexual contact as the only reasonable path of transmission. Based on this, it is believed by researchers that he was homosexual, as rates for transmission for male homosexual sex are nearly an order of magnitude higher than the rate of transmission for sexual intercourse.

I am familiar with this story, he was referred to as “ground zero.” He was a flight attendant and had trysts in Haiti where it was believed that he contracted the then still very potent virus.

Prior to this time the virus was thought to have come from the Congo or caves near Mt. Kilimanjaro, but none of this was ever proven. What is known is that the virus was spread through trade routes through the Sahara by travelers visiting prostitutes. To exacerbate the problem, local superstition suggested that having sex with virgins was a possible cure.

I can’t recall how the disease spread from Saharan Africa to Haiti, but I suspect it had spread to larger African cities. The “Gay” angle started in Haiti which was a popular destination for them for some reason.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I an approach like this is what you mean by the statement that we should “welcome these people into our Church”, I’m all for it.

 

[frobert]

Just what does “empathy” mean? I mean, I have a horrible sin of pride, but I don’t go to church expecting people to hear my sob story or pat me on the back and tell me I’m fine as I am, etc. I think the best stuff I get, in this respect, in church is when I go to confession.

Well, let’s say I had a similar struggle with pride that through prayer and perhaps counseling I overcame. When I say that I understand what you are going through I say it from my own experience and because I experienced the struggle myself I can I understand with sincerely. Actually a struggle with any sin would be sufficient to feel what the other person struggling with a sin feels. The idea is that you go into yourself to experience what the other person is feeling. I don’t go around my church telling people that I am gay and if you learn that I am I don’t expect nor do I want your sympathy or your pity but if you can feel empathy for the struggle that I as a fellow Christian am going through then it would be natural for you to welcome me into the church.

The question in the topic is stated poorly because it implies that gays are not welcome in the church. I give the CC and Catholics more credit than that. A better question would be “are there any Catholics who find it difficult to accept gays attending Catholic services?” Some gays, together and individually might think that the CC should do more to address that problem and there might be things that can be done. Pope Francis appears to be addressing some of those things. The blow-back that he is getting from his shift of emphasis suggests that there are pockets of dissatisfaction with gays taking part in services. I am not talking about a construct “gay community” which may or may not exist. I am talking about individuals.

 

[Captain_America]

I agree that the original question is unduly provocative.

Hate all sin, really, but love all sinners even, or perhaps especially, those who purposefully sin and hate you.

Past a certain age, I think everyone’s lost their sense of wholeness through sin or profound damage of some kind.

I remember talking with a young woman who had been hurt. She somehow felt she could get back her sense of wholeness. But my advice to her is that you’ve healed but you’ve got a scab. No good going back there and picking at it, keeping the pain going. You have to walk on, and that’s perhaps the toughest tasks adults face.

 

[Brendan_64]

Concretely and specifically, what exactly does “welcoming them into the church” mean? Approving a life style that is directly at odds with the moral teaching of the church? Your other posts would not suggest that. So what exactly does that mean?

Of course it doesn’t mean an acceptance of gay sexual relations, it means acceptance of the person (or a couple) into our Church as individuals. Cohabiting heterosexuals are accepted into our Church, even though that doesn’t mean we condone sex outside of marriage.

Also, I’ve met any number of men with SSAs who find them problematic. They do not find that gay activists speak for them; they do not find that a sexually active homosexual lifestyle or the gay subculture fulfills them; and they don’t adopt that identity.

That is fair enough. However, I can only speak for my own experience, and I have found that the gay men I know do not belong to any ‘gay subculture’. They are people who behave like, and mix with most other people. They are no more part of a ‘subculture’ than cohabiting heterosexual couples are.

I fully support the Church’s teaching on homosexuality (which also that homosexuals must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity) but there is a danger that some Catholics view homosexuals as pariahs and treat them very differently than they treat cohabiting heterosexuals. Both groups of people ought to be accepted into our Church.

 

[Brendan_64]

I remember talking with a young woman who had been hurt. She somehow felt she could get back her sense of wholeness. But my advice to her is that you’ve healed but you’ve got a scab. No good going back there and picking at it, keeping the pain going. You have to walk on, and that’s perhaps the toughest tasks adults face.

That is great advice Captain. I find myself going back and trying to pick the scabs of scars that are several decades old.

You may be absolved and forgiven, but erasing the feeling of personal guilt is a very different thing. Moving on isn’t easy.

 

[Corki]

Of course it doesn’t mean an acceptance of gay sexual relations, it means acceptance of the person (or a couple) into our Church as individuals. Cohabiting heterosexuals are accepted into our Church, even though that doesn’t mean we condone sex outside of marriage.

I am not sure about that. Cohabitating couples come to Mass together and are welcome in that way. But, for example, they can’t be godparents or Confirmation sponsors, they can’t be EMHCs or lectors and they can’t teach CCE. At least in my parish that’s the case, if their living situation is known. Otherwise, there is no distinction between a cohabitating couple and one that is just dating.

With a same-sex couple, the same could apply. The issue would arise if they were to start talking about themselves as a “couple”, or engaging in PDAs. I think that would need pastoral intervention.

 

[Brendan_64]

I am not sure about that. Cohabitating couples come to Mass together and are welcome in that way. But, for example, they can’t be godparents or Confirmation sponsors, they can’t be EMHCs or lectors and they can’t teach CCE. At least in my parish that’s the case, if their living situation is known. Otherwise, there is no distinction between a cohabitating couple and one that is just dating.

That is correct, but they can play a role in our Church. Greeters, ushers, flower arranging, helping out at parish meetings/functions etc. They may not be able to participate in areas related to the Liturgy and the Sacraments, but we ought not to exclude them unnecessarily from aresa where they can play a role. It is through inclusion that they can be brought closer to God in the hope that one day their lifestyle will be in union with God’s wishes.

With a same-sex couple, the same could apply. The issue would arise if they were to start talking about themselves as a “couple”, or engaging in PDAs. I think that would need pastoral intervention.

I do see our point about them describing themselves as a “couple”, but we already have cohabiting heterosexuals who describe themselves as a couple and refer to the other person in their relationship as their “partner”.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I am not sure about that. Cohabitating couples come to Mass together and are welcome in that way. But, for example, they can’t be godparents or Confirmation sponsors, they can’t be EMHCs or lectors and they can’t teach CCE. At least in my parish that’s the case, if their living situation is known. Otherwise, there is no distinction between a cohabitating couple and one that is just dating.

With a same-sex couple, the same could apply. The issue would arise if they were to start talking about themselves as a “couple”, or engaging in PDAs. I think that would need pastoral intervention.

You might want to point out that co-habitating couples should not be receiving the Eucharist either. Anyone can “come” to Mass. But one needs to be in a state of Grace to fully participate. Gay or strait.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

Of course it doesn’t mean an acceptance of gay sexual relations, it means acceptance of the person (or a couple) into our Church as individuals. Cohabiting heterosexuals are accepted into our Church, even though that doesn’t mean we condone sex outside of marriage.

The problem is you are still not being concrete and specific.

Let me be concrete and specific on just one issue. Let’s say a couple is cohabiting before marriage. They know that it is contrary to the church’s moral teaching to do so. The priest giving communion may have no way to know they are cohabiting. If he did know somehow through marriage preparation, they would have been told not to receive Holy Communion and he can refuse it to them if they present themselves to him. This has be done for so-called Catholic politicians publically supporting abortion or certain public gay demonstrations at Mass where they demand Communion.

Therefore a cohabiting couple or individual may be going to Mass and not receiving Communion which any gay person or couple can do already.

Or they are going to Mass individually or together and receiving Communion w/o the priest knowing their status, which any gay individual/couple may be doing. Although in both cases it would be the serious sin of receiving Communion unworthily.

If the cohabiting couple is (re)married outside of the church, ditto as above.

In no case, cohabiting or gay, is there or can there be any public condoning of their status and there can be, as in other situations listed, a refusal of Communion if the status is publically known.

In every case they can participate without the church publically condoning their status.

. . . .
I fully support the Church’s teaching on homosexuality (which also that homosexuals must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity) but there is a danger that some Catholics view homosexuals as pariahs and treat them very differently than they treat cohabiting heterosexuals. Both groups of people ought to be accepted into our Church.

Again I ask you concretely and specifically what being “accepted into our church” would like look like?

I gave one example that I readily accept, the Catholic organization Courage. I repeat it here.

 

[Brendan_64]

The problem is you are still not being concrete and specific.

Let me be concrete and specific on just one issue. Let’s say a couple is cohabiting before marriage. They know that it is contrary to the church’s moral teaching to do so. The priest giving communion may have no way to know they are cohabiting.

In parishes, priests know their parishioners. Parishes are not so big that priests do not know their congregations. A priest will most likely be well aware that a couple are cohabiting.

Again I ask you concretely and specifically what being “accepted into our church” would like look like?

It means being accepted in the way that all sinners are accepted into our Church. Of course those in a state of grave sin may not receive Communion, but that applies as much to all others in a state of grave sin as it does to homosexuals., no more, no less.

There are many cohabiting couples, divorced and remarried couples, etc. within our Church. Turning a blind eye and pretending that we, or the parish priest is not aware of the status of such people is willful self-delusion. We disapprove of their living arrangement and we do not compromise on Church teaching, but we do accept these people as part of our parish community. I cannot see why homosexual ‘couples’ are to be regarded as particularly ‘toxic’.

I do honestly think that the reason many people do regard them as being particularly unacceptable (compared to cohabiting couples, or divorced and remarried couples) is down to a “yuck” factor. I think that represents discrimination (as compared to cohabiting or divorced and remarried couples) and is contrary to Church teaching which states of homosexuals that, “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided”.

 

[JB_Dugan]

My question is…

Why would the gay community WANT to be part of our’s???

I mean, according to the vast majority of the gay community the Catholic Church is nothing but a bunch of homophobic bigots, relying on the mystic teachings of ancient old white men who need the crutch of a religion to exist.

Why on Earth, would a self respecting member of the gay community want to join our “club”???

Salvation? Maybe?..well then you gotta live by the club rules…and there goes all the fun out of being gay. Tsk…tsk.

I think it is a valid question and I would like an answer…why would the gay community want to be welcomed to ours?

I have my suspicions, but I would like to hear from others.

 

[frobert]

My question is…

Why would the gay community WANT to be part of our’s???

I doubt that every Catholic in the gay community wants to be part of the CC.

In my case I wanted God back into my life. I was born a Catholic and felt that the CC was a good place to start, had I been born a Methodist I would have likely returned to a Methodist church

I mean, according to the vast majority of the gay community the Catholic Church is nothing but a bunch of homophobic bigots, relying on the mystic teachings of ancient old white men who need the crutch of a religion to exist.

Many gays do see some in the CC as homophobic and bigots. As an individual I have seen some but see few if any at my parish. I have several close friends who are Catholic who are not bigoted or homophobic. I guess I and the homophobes will have to learn to live together. After all you can’t be loved by everyone.

Truthfully, I have some problems with a few of the teachings but there are many that I truly love.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My question is…

Why would the gay community WANT to be part of our’s???

I mean, according to the vast majority of the gay community the Catholic Church is nothing but a bunch of homophobic bigots, relying on the mystic teachings of ancient old white men who need the crutch of a religion to exist.

Why on Earth, would a self respecting member of the gay community want to join our “club”???

Salvation? Maybe?..well then you gotta live by the club rules…and there goes all the fun out of being gay. Tsk…tsk.

I think it is a valid question and I would like an answer…why would the gay community want to be welcomed to ours?

I have my suspicions, but I would like to hear from others.

I am an opponent of the gay agenda. In whatever form it takes. But I find your characterization of a member of the community off base. Why would they want to be a member of Christs body? Because they are human and His children. Should they vocalize and identify themselves by their sin publically? No. Should they be as welcome to partake in the sacrament of penance and Eucharist like the rest of us. YES. Provided they are in a state of grace I have no problem with a homosexual or a murderer, or an adulterer being welcome in Church. But if they are unrepentant, and unwilling to live Holy and Chaste lives then they are just as unwelcome as any other unrepentant sinner.

 

[kozlosap]

My question is…

Why would the gay community WANT to be part of our’s???

I mean, according to the vast majority of the gay community the Catholic Church is nothing but a bunch of homophobic bigots, relying on the mystic teachings of ancient old white men who need the crutch of a religion to exist.

Why on Earth, would a self respecting member of the gay community want to join our “club”???

Salvation? Maybe?..well then you gotta live by the club rules…and there goes all the fun out of being gay. Tsk…tsk.
Ii
I think it is a valid question and I would like an answer…why would the gay community want to be welcomed to ours?

I have my suspicions, but I would like to hear from others.

I must have read your post wrong, because you insinuate that there is “their club” and an “our club”. If I’m not mistaken, we are the Universal Church which is open to all sinners. All people are welcome whether they are straight, gay, brown, purple or green. Until some realize that making some people feel unwelcome is not the way that the Gospels should be preached, then nothing will change.