Is it time we welcome the gay community to ours?

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Whatever. All I meant was that people can be tempted to sexual actions with one another without being in mortal sin. If you disagree, you have an issue with the Church, not me.

And what is my narrow view of what is welcoming, pray tell?

You were arguing, if I recall, that gay couples should be denied communion, even if we do not know that they are fornicating. Forgive me if I’m recalling incorrectly.

1. What issue do I have with the Church. You still must lay out your case on how this is possible. I guess it is possible. For instance if you dream of someone else sexually it is not a sin. But if I desire sex, with someone who I cannot have sex with, how is that not a sin?
2. You tell me. The thread is about the Church being “welcoming” what do you think that looks like?
3. It is possible I need to clarify something, but you will have to provide the quote in which I presumed a homosexual couple was having sex.

 

[Fr_of_Jazz]

I disagree. I think you’re confusing cultural norms for universal truths. But even if you’re right, wanting sexual expression in a relationship puts you in the near occasion of mortal sin, but it does not mean you have mortally sinned.

Romance ultimately wanting sexual expression is not a cultural convention: it is part of human nature. To choose to pursue a romantic relationship that wants or tends toward sexual acts that are contrary to nature is a seriously sinful act and cannot be condoned by the Church. If an obviously romantically involved same-gender couple attempted to register with a parish, the priest needs to explain to them that that relationship itself cannot be affirmed and condoned by the church and that to deliberately pursue it is a serious sin and that they should not receive Communion.

I’m fine with all of this. But, when it comes to denying communion, the issue is not the nature of the attraction; it is the state of the person’s soul.

The two are not mutually exclusive. We’re not talking simply about SSA: we’re talking about the act of deliberately cultivating a relationship based on that attraction. Of course no one can be denied communion for simply experiencing a SSA as a temptation. But a public display of a relationship that clearly flouts the moral law going down a path that is against nature cannot be affirmed. And it is seriously sinful.

Suppose that most people in the Church believe that people who dress like Goths are evil sexual perverts. Does this make it appropriate to deny a teenager wearing black clothes and dark eyeliner communion? In this case, you have the appearance of scandal, without scandal itself. In order for scandal to actually occur, the beliefs of the congregation need to be correct.

Since, as you point out in this scenario, Goths are not, the people should be educated. But since it is true that same-sex romance is contrary to nature, an obvious case would give scandal. It is also mortally sinful to pursue a gay romance.

If a congregation believes that two gay men who go to Church together are necessarily in a state of mortal sin, then the congregation needs to be educated. The two gay men do not need to penalized for going to church together. If people are scandalized by things that are not scandalous, that is their problem.

Educated as to what. That two gay men (one or both Catholic) in a romance showing up in church together as a couple are not deliberately pursuing a relationship that is contrary to nature?

We are talking about a couple which by definition makes a statement. That statement cannot be affirmed by the church any more than that of a group of individuals known as Catholic Swingers who show up with some indication of their activity can.

Agreed. But it is not a mortal sin to put oneself in the occasion of sin.

If you look carefully at my entire response I wasn’t yet discussing Communion. If you want to discuss admission to Communion you should address all the points I made in that section. My argument about admission to Communion is based on deliberately pursuing a relationship that is against nature which is grave matter and mortally sinful for an informed and free Catholic. And we are talking about Catholics here.

And we will encourage them to repent by ostracizing them or assuming that they are sexually active?

Well, that’s not what I’m trying to do. I am concerned with evangelizing gay people – not by distorting the truth about sin, but by extending Christ’s mercy. I care very deeply about that issue.

It is not distorting the truth about sin to teach that deliberately pursuing a romantic relationship that is contrary to nature is a mortal sin. If one or both parties in a relationship are Catholic they know it is grave matter. Christ extends his mercy to individuals by inviting them to repent and they receive His mercy when they do.

Again we are talking about Catholic gay couples–non-Catholics can’t receive Communion anyway. Denying Holy Communion to obviously gay couples with at least one Catholic in whatever way it is done is necessary:
(1) to avoid profanation of the sacrament by Catholics receiving it unworthily
(2) by prevent them from sinning by receiving it unworthily
(3) to remind them they are sinning
(4) to prevent the congregation from concluding the Church approves of gay romances.

What I don’t understand is why you are so bent on pushing for gay couples to show up in church together . . . presumably desiring some kind of regular basis for doing this? Why not gay individuals, since the very validity of gay romantic relationships is negated by the anthropology and moral teaching of the church whose doors they are entering?

Why is it so important to you that gay couples known to be such be seen in church . . . together? What value does that serve for their conversion or the community?

 

[Captain_America]

ring

?

Why is it so important to you that gay couples known to be such be seen in church . . . together? What value does that serve for their conversion or the community?

I rather agree with this. Why not have all the adulterers sit up front on the right side, the swindlers behind them, etc.

 

[JB_Dugan]

Just curious, why do you think this was an understatement?

You stated: “Many gays do see some in the CC as homophobic and bigots.”

From my perspective I would say the VAST MAJORITY of the gay community sees the whole Catholic Church as homophobic and bigots.

Please bear in mind that I am talking about the “gay community” as per the subject of this thread. Not individuals.

I know there are homosexuals who are good Catholics (probably better than I) struggling with their disorder and my heart and prayers go out to them…but ugly protests, church desecrations and interruptions of Mass by the gay community have soured me towards that group.

This thread asks the question: ** “Is it time we welcome the gay community to ours?”**

I am still wondering why a group of half naked people, waving “rainbow flags” and shouting obscenities at worshipers on their way into church…would want to join us.

Maybe you could answer that for me…

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Since, as you point out in this scenario, Goths are not, the people should be educated. But since it is true that same-sex romance is contrary to nature, an obvious case would give scandal. It is also mortally sinful to pursue a gay romance.

Well, then, suppose that the gay couple didn’t obviously appear to be romantically involved, but they sat with each other and were reasonably affectionate. (I take it that two men can be affectionate without romance, no?) Some people in the church assume that they are romantically and sexually involved. This is not a case of scandal, right? Though it is definitely a case of *perceived *scandal.

It is not distorting the truth about sin to teach that deliberately pursuing a romantic relationship that is contrary to nature is a mortal sin.

I suppose not, if you can show me where the Church teaches that such a romantic relationship is, in itself, mortally sinful.

What I don’t understand is why you are so bent on pushing for gay couples to show up in church together . . . presumably desiring some kind of regular basis for doing this? Why not gay individuals, since the very validity of gay romantic relationships is negated by the anthropology and moral teaching of the church whose doors they are entering?

You’ve got me wrong. I want the Church to be able to effectively evangelize anyone who comes in the doors. Since I have SSA, I feel particularly strongly about evangelizing gay people. And I don’t feel that it does anyone a favor for us to presume that a couple of gay individuals who come to a Catholic church are sexually active (or romantically involved).

Why is it so important to you that gay couples known to be such be seen in church . . . together?

It’s not. I’d be happy for them to show up on their own, or in groups of 20, or wearing tuxedos with golden sequins. I don’t care how they get there, but I’m sick of Catholics making them feel unwelcome. Why is it so important to you to keep gay couples out of church?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I am still wondering why a group of half naked people, waving “rainbow flags” and shouting obscenities at worshipers on their way into church…would want to join us.

If this is your idea of gay people, then you must have been living in a box for the last 40 years.

The actions of extremists do not represent the ordinary opinions of the majority. If they do, then those who call the Catholic church a haven for pedophilia are right.

 

[SMGS127]

If this is your idea of gay people, then you must have been living in a box for the last 40 years.

The actions of extremists do not represent the ordinary opinions of the majority. If they do, then those who call the Catholic church a haven for pedophilia are right.

JB Dugan, you have a lot to learn about the gay community. There are a ton of Christians in it who find ways to justify it (through Protestantism or a false idea of “primacy of conscience”) or who struggle with reconciling their orientation and faith on a daily basis. The vast majority of gay individuals prefer to just live their life in peace (but with a member of the same sex). The vast majority of gay individuals respect religion and harbor no ill will towards it except in that it bars them from marriage (though they don’t consider religious beliefs against gay marriage to be homophobic, just dumb).

The term homophobia is reserved for those who use blatant insults against gay people, use fake gay = pedophile links, spread lies and/or slander against the gay community, talk about how horrible gay people are, etc. etc. I would hope you don’t think the CC does that.

 

[JB_Dugan]

If this is your idea of gay people, then you must have been living in a box for the last 40 years.

The actions of extremists do not represent the ordinary opinions of the majority. If they do, then those who call the Catholic church a haven for pedophilia are right.

I am aware of the actions of extremists in relation to the majority of an organization.

But all I have seen is the actions of extremists…What I have not seen is any condemnation of these extremists by well known gays.

Please remember, all I am asking is why would the gay community WANT to be welcomed by us???

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I am aware of the actions of extremists in relation to the majority of an organization.

But all I have seen is the actions of extremists…What I have not seen is any condemnation of these extremists by well known gays.

Please remember, all I am asking is why would the gay community WANT to be welcomed by us???

I assure you there is a lot of hand-wringing in large portions of the gay community about the exhibitionism at many gay pride parades, and that the majority of gay people think it is terrible to scream obscenities at religious believers. I wonder where you would have occasion to hear about this hand-wringing. It’s not exactly newsworthy, since the news companies would much prefer to cover extremists on both sides.

(And, out of curiosity, who are the “well-known gays” who you’re getting your ideas from?)

 

[JB_Dugan]

JB Dugan, you have a lot to learn about the gay community. There are a ton of Christians in it who find ways to justify it (through Protestantism or a false idea of “primacy of conscience”) or who struggle with reconciling their orientation and faith on a daily basis. The vast majority of gay individuals prefer to just live their life in peace (but with a member of the same sex). The vast majority of gay individuals respect religion and harbor no ill will towards it except in that it bars them from marriage (though they don’t consider religious beliefs against gay marriage to be homophobic, just dumb).

So my beloved Catholic Religion …is dumb?

If that is the feeling of the gay community, I think I would rather be considered a homophobe.

The term homophobia is reserved for those who use blatant insults against gay people, use fake gay = pedophile links, spread lies and/or slander against the gay community, talk about how horrible gay people are, etc. etc. I would hope you don’t think the CC does that.

I KNOW the Catholic Church does NOT do that.

But you are not answering my question. I want to know why the gay community would want to be welcomed into a Church that they consider dumb?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

I want to know why the gay community would want to be welcomed into a Church that they consider dumb?

Who is “they”? There are a great variety of gay people, and lots of them don’t think the Catholic church is dumb.

 

[JB_Dugan]

I assure you there is a lot of hand-wringing in large portions of the gay community about the exhibitionism at many gay pride parades, and that the majority of gay people think it is terrible to scream obscenities at religious believers. I wonder where you would have occasion to hear about this hand-wringing. It’s not exactly newsworthy, since the news companies would much prefer to cover extremists on both sides.

(And, out of curiosity, who are the “well-known gays” who you’re getting your ideas from?)

I understand about the concern some of the gay community must have about what I perceive as the majority of extremists. I know how unfair news coverage can be.

I am not getting ideas from “well-known gays”. I am hoping for a condemnation of the actions of the extremists by “well known” or prominent members of the gay community.

 

[JB_Dugan]

Who is “they”? There are a great variety of gay people, and lots of them don’t think the Catholic church is dumb.

“They” is who SMGS127 is talking about…(?)

See post #264

 

[Prodigal_Son]

“They” is who SMGS127 is talking about…(?)

See post #264

Sorry, missed that. Although I don’t think SMGS127 was trying to say that *all *gay people think that religious views about gay sex are dumb, much less that these people all think that the Church itself is dumb.

(I sometimes am tempted to think that Catholic teaching on papal infallibility is dumb – or rather incoherent – but I *certainly *don’t think the Church itself is dumb!)

 

[Eagle1937]

We can welcome them. But, it is our duty to remind them that Homosexuality is a Sin. And they must change their ways.

Forgive me if this was already mentioned in this thread.

Leviticus 18:22.

22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.

Leviticus 20:13.

13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

The New Testament.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals
10
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11
That is what some of you used to be; but now you have had yourselves washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Sorry folks. Just the way it is. And I am fatigue of bending the rules…Weakening and downright ignoring them.

 

[JB_Dugan]

Sorry, missed that. Although I don’t think SMGS127 was trying to say that *all *gay people think that religious views about gay sex are dumb, much less that these people all think that the Church itself is dumb.

I am not buying that, Prodigal.

Words have meaning. SMGS127 said what he said. If he meant something else he can retract it.

(I sometimes am tempted to think that Catholic teaching on papal infallibility is dumb – or rather incoherent – but I *certainly *don’t think the Church itself is dumb!)

If you think the teachings of an organization are dumb how can you say that the organization is NOT dumb.

I am getting the distinct feeling that you, SMGS127 and a lot of others on this thread think the Catholic Church is DUMB because its teachings defy the gay community’s agenda.

If that is true why would you and the gay community want to be welcomed by the “dumb” Catholic Church???

 

[Prodigal_Son]

If you think the teachings of an organization are dumb how can you say that the organization is NOT dumb.

I am getting the distinct feeling that you, SMGS127 and a lot of others on this thread think the Catholic Church is DUMB because its teachings defy the gay community’s agenda.

If that is true why would you and the gay community want to be welcomed by the “dumb” Catholic Church???

1. I agree with the Catholic Church’s teaching on homosexuality.
2. You can certainly think one teaching of a church is dumb without thinking the entire church is dumb. I think major league baseball’s designated hitter rule is dumb, but I love baseball as a whole.
3. I am not part of the gay community.

 

[SMGS127]

So my beloved Catholic Religion …is dumb?

If that is the feeling of the gay community, I think I would rather be considered a homophobe.

I KNOW the Catholic Church does NOT do that.

But you are not answering my question. I want to know why the gay community would want to be welcomed into a Church that they consider dumb?

I am not buying that, Prodigal.

Words have meaning. SMGS127 said what he said. If he meant something else he can retract it.

If you think the teachings of an organization are dumb how can you say that the organization is NOT dumb.

I am getting the distinct feeling that you, SMGS127 and a lot of others on this thread think the Catholic Church is DUMB because its teachings defy the gay community’s agenda.

If that is true why would you and the gay community want to be welcomed by the “dumb” Catholic Church???

First of all, I am a woman.

Second of all, you asked about the community. I gave you the opinion by the actively gay community that religious views on gay marriage are dumb. Am I actively gay? No. Do I think religious views on gay “marriage” are dumb? No, I wholeheartedly support the Church on every issue. But do actively gay people think that Church teaching is misguided because they don’t believe in papal infallibility and see it as based off of mistranslations of original Greek text in the New Testament? Yes. That is not the same as them thinking it is a “dumb” Church or even a “dumb” religion. But they do think the policy is dumb, by and large.

Why? Because, as actively gay people, they see no DIFFERENCE between their relationships and those of heterosexuals outside the genders of the individuals involved. So they see no reason to bar gay relationships from becoming marriage. They also see no reason for Christians to oppose it, because there is a theologically sound argument that every NT reference to homosexuality is actually a mistranslation of the word pederasty, which is a different concept.

Are these Catholic arguments? Of course not. But most actively gay people are not devout Catholics for obvious reasons; as I said, the Christians in the gay community are often in “gay-affirming” Protestant churches. They still seek out Christ, but they don’t understand why their attractions are wrong, and many, MANY people completely fail in their jobs of explaining in a way that isn’t essentially “because the Bible tells me so” (a horrible evangelization tactic, by the way).

I am a devout Catholic and I am loyal to the Magisterium. Don’t look for a fight where there is none, just because I dismissed your stereotypes of the gay community as completely false.

 

[Havard]

First of all, I am a woman.

Second of all, you asked about the community. I gave you the opinion by the actively gay community that religious views on gay marriage are dumb. Am I actively gay? No. Do I think religious views on gay “marriage” are dumb? No, I wholeheartedly support the Church on every issue. But do actively gay people think that Church teaching is misguided because they don’t believe in papal infallibility and see it as based off of mistranslations of original Greek text in the New Testament? Yes. That is not the same as them thinking it is a “dumb” Church or even a “dumb” religion. But they do think the policy is dumb, by and large.

Why? Because, as actively gay people, they see no DIFFERENCE between their relationships and those of heterosexuals outside the genders of the individuals involved. So they see no reason to bar gay relationships from becoming marriage. They also see no reason for Christians to oppose it, because there is a theologically sound argument that every NT reference to homosexuality is actually a mistranslation of the word pederasty, which is a different concept.

Are these Catholic arguments? Of course not. But most actively gay people are not devout Catholics for obvious reasons; as I said, the Christians in the gay community are often in “gay-affirming” Protestant churches. They still seek out Christ, but they don’t understand why their attractions are wrong, and many, MANY people completely fail in their jobs of explaining in a way that isn’t essentially “because the Bible tells me so” (a horrible evangelization tactic, by the way).

I am a devout Catholic and I am loyal to the Magisterium. Don’t look for a fight where there is none, just because I dismissed your stereotypes of the gay community as completely false.

Dang, woman… you pack a lot of sense into one post. :clapping:

 

[JB_Dugan]

First of all, I am a woman.

Well Howdy Ma’am:

Second of all, you asked about the community. I gave you the opinion by the actively gay community that religious views on gay marriage are dumb. Am I actively gay? No. Do I think religious views on gay “marriage” are dumb? No, I wholeheartedly support the Church on every issue. But do actively gay people think that Church teaching is misguided because they don’t believe in papal infallibility and see it as based off of mistranslations of original Greek text in the New Testament? Yes. That is not the same as them thinking it is a “dumb” Church or even a “dumb” religion. But they do think the policy is dumb, by and large.

For a group to consider a specific teaching or the Church to be “dumb” is to diminish the teaching authority of the Church. Add to that the rejection of Papal Infallibility and I am back to my original question…why would the gay community REMOTELY want to be welcomed by our Church???

Why? Because, as actively gay people, they see no DIFFERENCE between their relationships and those of heterosexuals outside the genders of the individuals involved. So they see no reason to bar gay relationships from becoming marriage. They also see no reason for Christians to oppose it, because there is a theologically sound argument that every NT reference to homosexuality is actually a mistranslation of the word pederasty, which is a different concept.

I don’t buy that as an answer.

I am afraid I see more of an agenda of acceptance.

Are these Catholic arguments? Of course not. But most actively gay people are not devout Catholics for obvious reasons; as I said, the Christians in the gay community are often in “gay-affirming” Protestant churches. They still seek out Christ, but they don’t understand why their attractions are wrong, and many, MANY people completely fail in their jobs of explaining in a way that isn’t essentially “because the Bible tells me so” (a horrible evangelization tactic, by the way).

I don’t need a bible or even a Magisterium to tell me that somethings are basically un-natural or disordered. That can be obvious to any reasonable person.

“They still seek out Christ, but they don’t understand why their attractions are wrong,”

Could it be that they simply do not want to accept the truth?

I am a devout Catholic and I am loyal to the Magisterium. Don’t look for a fight where there is none, just because I dismissed your stereotypes of the gay community as completely false.

I’m not looking for a fight. My observations of the actions of the gay community are not false. My wish is that some prominent gay person or gay supporter would come out and condemn the anti-Catholic actions of those few (if they really are just a few).