Is it time............

[LilyM]

Go to confession? What if several were turned away and never got the chance to go?

Well, what if people who are working up the courage to confess mortal sin get so flustered by the priest or other parishioners hurrying them along that they decide to leave them out? Bad pastoral practice either way.

If someone urgently needs to go, they’ll make an appointment if they can’t get in at the scheduled time. Most priests wouldn’t just turn someone away, they’d tell them to make an appointment.

Otherwise confession takes as long as it takes, and I’m sorry, advice of one kind or another - ie advice - is actually SUPPOSED to be part of the sacrament, at least occasionally!

Priests aren’t just robots meant to hear about your sins, offer no advice or other help and just pronounce absolution. No point having a priest there if that’s all he ever does.

Neither are penitents just robots meant to rattle off a list of sins at as-high-as-possible speed. No point them being there if that’s their attitude to it either.

Seriously, you guys want the sacrament to be run like the queue at a McDonalds or something - it isn’t and shouldn’t be.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I do not think it is proper to require anyone to make an appointment for the Sacrament of Penance. As every penitent has the right to an anonymous confession, requiring them to make an appointment if their confession would “take to long” would remove that right.

 

[zab]

I do not think it is proper to require anyone to make an appointment for the Sacrament of Penance. As every penitent has the right to an anonymous confession, requiring them to make an appointment if their confession would “take to long” would remove that right.

I agree. And I am guessing that those who normally take 20-30 every time are not going anonymously.

 

[T700]

Being an Anglican in training to be a Catholic, maybe some of you can enlighten me on Reconciliation Mathematics. Here are the stats for a large, Catholic parish near me:

9,000 families (by the parish’s count).

Being conservative, I’ll assume 2.5 people per “family unit”. That’s 22,500 people.

Let’s assume only 50% are of age to need to confess. That’s 11,250.

Now, assume that only 50% of those are faithful Catholics who actually do confess. That 5,625 people.

The church offers confession for 45 minutes, once a week, by one priest. Here’s where my figures get really fuzzy. I come from a tradition where individual confession is the exception, so I have little experience with the amount of time it takes. I’m going to use 5 minutes each, as an average.

That works out to time for 468 confessions, over one year. Let’s be generous and assume that various Lenten services and private sessions quintuple that figure to 1,872. That still leaves us with 3,753 Catholics who will not have time to confess at their home parish–and this is assuming that each person confesses only once per year!

Is my math really that far off? Does the Church and her members only pay lip service to the sacrament of reconciliation? If people really believed that mortal sin would send them to hell unless forgiven, it seems to me that both priest and penitent would be demanding more time for confession.

I’m genuinely curious about this and would love for someone to show me where I’m wrong. This has been worrying me for quite some time.

Paul

 

[brigid12]

If people would take advantage of the regularly scheduled confession times in their parish, then Lent/Advent Penance Services would be unnecessary, and perhaps your desire to reduce the time per penitent would fade.

Well, what if people who are working up the courage to confess mortal sin get so flustered by the priest or other parishioners hurrying them along that they decide to leave them out? Bad pastoral practice either way.

If someone urgently needs to go, they’ll make an appointment if they can’t get in at the scheduled time. Most priests wouldn’t just turn someone away, they’d tell them to make an appointment.

Otherwise confession takes as long as it takes, and I’m sorry, advice of one kind or another - ie advice - is actually SUPPOSED to be part of the sacrament, at least occasionally!

Priests aren’t just robots meant to hear about your sins, offer no advice or other help and just pronounce absolution. No point having a priest there if that’s all he ever does.

Neither are penitents just robots meant to rattle off a list of sins at as-high-as-possible speed. No point them being there if that’s their attitude to it either.

Seriously, you guys want the sacrament to be run like the queue at a McDonalds or something - it isn’t and shouldn’t be.

:yup: :yup:

Those “sinful little old ladies” may be the ones to pray you out of purgatory!

 

[LilyM]

Being an Anglican in training to be a Catholic, maybe some of you can enlighten me on Reconciliation Mathematics. Here are the stats for a large, Catholic parish near me:

9,000 families (by the parish’s count).

Being conservative, I’ll assume 2.5 people per “family unit”. That’s 22,500 people.

Let’s assume only 50% are of age to need to confess. That’s 11,250.

Now, assume that only 50% of those are faithful Catholics who actually do confess. That 5,625 people.

The church offers confession for 45 minutes, once a week, by one priest. Here’s where my figures get really fuzzy. I come from a tradition where individual confession is the exception, so I have little experience with the amount of time it takes. I’m going to use 5 minutes each, as an average.

That works out to time for 468 confessions, over one year. Let’s be generous and assume that various Lenten services and private sessions quintuple that figure to 1,872. That still leaves us with 3,753 Catholics who will not have time to confess at their home parish–and this is assuming that each person confesses only once per year!

Is my math really that far off? Does the Church and her members only pay lip service to the sacrament of reconciliation? If people really believed that mortal sin would send them to hell unless forgiven, it seems to me that both priest and penitent would be demanding more time for confession.

I’m genuinely curious about this and would love for someone to show me where I’m wrong. This has been worrying me for quite some time.

Paul

Mate, the average parish does NOT have 9,000 families or anything near - you’re discounting that

a) 99.9% of churches will have MUCH MUCH fewer numbers of people than that, and

b) for a parish of 9,000 families to have just one priest is also rare. Most very large parishes will offer many more hours of confession and have at least double or triple the number of priests available as well.

c) there are plenty of churches, especially in city areas, that have a special charism for confession and will offer many hours of confession every day. Since most people work in urban areas, they would probably go where they work, in those more well-supplied city churches.

d) there are opportunities for confession elsewhere - abbeys, convents, university Newman centres, for example, while not being parishes, will often have their own priests and will offer confession. Heck, some orders have set up shopfront confessionals in shopping malls around the US!

e) the Lenten and Advent penance services aren’t just triple the time - you’ll usually have four, five or half-a-dozen priests. And each of them will often go for hours and hours and not just 45 minutes

f) 5 minutes, in my experience as a frequent penitent, is probably overestimating it a little, especially outside of Advent and Lent when it’s usually regular penitents who are the only ones who go and will thus have shorter confessions.

 

[T700]

Mate, the average parish does NOT have 9,000 families or anything near - you’re discounting that

a) 99.9% of churches will have MUCH MUCH fewer numbers of people than that, and

b) for a parish of 9,000 families to have just one priest is also rare. Most very large parishes will offer many more hours of confession and have more priests available for appointment if necessary as well

c) there are plenty of churches, especially in large cities, that have a special charism for confession and will offer many hours of confession every day.

d) there are opportunities for confession elsewhere - abbeys, convents, university Newman centres, for example, while not being parishes, will often have their own priests and will offer confession. Heck, some orders have set up shopfront confessionals in shopping malls around the US!

e) the Lenten and Advent penance services aren’t just triple the time - you’ll usually have four, five or half-a-dozen priests. And they will often go for hours and hours and not just 45 minutes

f) 5 minutes, in my experience as a frequent penitent, is probably overestimating it a little, especially outside of Advent and Lent when it’s usually regular penitents who are the only ones who go and will thus have shorter confessions.

Thanks, I didn’t realize that opportunities to confess outside of the home parish were so readily available.

To clarify, the parish I’m talking about has three priests, but only one hears confessions each week.

Paul

 

[Timothysis]

You can make “if” statements until the cows come home but the fact of the matter is that if there is a line of people waiting to confess and only 30 minutes to do it, then one person should not monopolize the given time, especially if its just because they like to be chatty with the priest. It reminds me of the joke:

“Bless me father but I slept with the mailman on August 1.”

Priest: “You’re absolved.”

Next week:

“Bless me father, i slept with the mailman on August 1.”

Priest: “You’re absolved.”

Next week:

“Bless me father, i slept with the mailman on August 1.”

Priest: “You know, this is the third time you confessed this sin.”

“I know father, but I like to talk about it.”

It has been said before that people shouldn’t approach at Communion time for a blessing because it isn’t the appropriate time; the same can be said for confession. There’s a time for confessing and a time for talking. You shouldn’t hinder someone’s confession because you want to chat with the priest.

 

[Timothysis]

Given the Seal of the Confessional, I should hope so!

I think you misunderstand; his point was that most sins mentioned in confession go in one ear and out the other.

 

[LilyM]

You can make “if” statements until the cows come home but the fact of the matter is that if there is a line of people waiting to confess and only 30 minutes to do it, then one person should not monopolize the given time, especially if its just because they like to be chatty with the priest. It reminds me of the joke:

“Bless me father but I slept with the mailman on August 1.”

Priest: “You’re absolved.”

Next week:

“Bless me father, i slept with the mailman on August 1.”

Priest: “You’re absolved.”

Next week:

“Bless me father, i slept with the mailman on August 1.”

Priest: “You know, this is the third time you confessed this sin.”

“I know father, but I like to talk about it.”

It has been said before that people shouldn’t approach at Communion time for a blessing because it isn’t the appropriate time; the same can be said for confession. There’s a time for confessing and a time for talking. You shouldn’t hinder someone’s confession because you want to chat with the priest.

And it’s ALSO said, quite regularly, that it’s an abuse for churches to use many EMHC’s if it’s done merely to ‘speed up’ communion and end Mass that much quicker. In other words that the sacraments deserve more respect than the clock and are more important than pretty much anything that any of us might want to be rushing off to afterwards.

As I said, the sacraments are not the drive through window at McDonald’s or the checkout at the supermarket, (‘12 sins or less’ queue anyone?). Putting a time limit on them is treating them as such.

 

[Timothysis]

And it’s ALSO said, quite regularly, that it’s an abuse for churches to use many EMHC’s if it’s done merely to ‘speed up’ communion and end Mass that much quicker. In other words that the sacraments deserve more respect than the clock and are more important than pretty much anything that any of us might want to be rushing off to afterwards.

As I said, the sacraments are not the drive through window at McDonald’s or the checkout at the supermarket, (‘12 sins or less’ queue anyone?). Putting a time limit on them is treating them as such.

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion but I’m sure that there are few who would agree that it is better for one dozen people to miss the opportunity to confess their sins because one person drones on and on in the confessional. Say what you will but there is a certain courtesy involved. Would you say it is better for Mass to begin late because the person in the confessional won’t put an end to it?

EMHC’s speeding up Communion was not the point of my earlier post, either. The point is/was that the distribution of Communion is NOT the proper time for a person to ask for a blessing, anymore than someone walking up to the priest during Communion and trying to confess to him. There is a time and a place for everything; the distribution of Communion is not the time for a blessing.

 

[zab]

And it’s ALSO said, quite regularly, that it’s an abuse for churches to use many EMHC’s if it’s done merely to ‘speed up’ communion and end Mass that much quicker. In other words that the sacraments deserve more respect than the clock and are more important than pretty much anything that any of us might want to be rushing off to afterwards.

As I said, the sacraments are not the drive through window at McDonald’s or the checkout at the supermarket, (‘12 sins or less’ queue anyone?). Putting a time limit on them is treating them as such.

The only problem is your are not rushing to get out. You just want to get in.

 

[Timothysis]

The only problem is your are not rushing to get out. You just want to get in.

Exactly, and I’m sure that LilyM would probably not be too happy if she went to confession and waited for an hour and a half because the 4 people in front of her each spent at least 20 minutes in the confessional. As I said before, there is a courtesy involved.

 

[Ruthie]

There are a lot of assumptions in this post.

How do any of us know that the person in the confessional is merely chatting with the priest, or is using the time for spiritual counseling?

And why shouldn’t a person having trouble with a recurring sin receive a little counseling in the confessional?

How would we know that a little old lady is doing more than confessing her sins? The longer I’m around the Church, the more I find to confess. And we are encouraged to confess venial sins, too; are you saying that when we do, we should go to the end of the line? What an opportunity for pride! That would give me one more thing to confess…

If only having 45 minutes once a week scheduled for confessions is a problem, talk to the pastor! I’ve been to confession on days where I’m the only one there, and on days where the line is so long that you know not everyone will be able to get it done. How’s he supposed to predict that?

OTOH, sometimes I wish I lived close to the diocesan Cathedral, where they have confession every day! And 3 daily Masses! :extrahappy:

God bless us all,

Ruthie, who would have to lose a lot of weight to be a *little *old lady!

 

[LilyM]

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion but I’m sure that there are few who would agree that it is better for one dozen people to miss the opportunity to confess their sins because one person drones on and on in the confessional. Say what you will but there is a certain courtesy involved. Would you say it is better for Mass to begin late because the person in the confessional won’t put an end to it?

I think it’s better one proper confession where the person is sure they’ve confessed all their sins AND gets good advice that keeps them away from sin in the future, than 12 where people forget most of their sins (or worse still, deliberately don’t mention them) because one eye is on the clock, get no advice to help them, and either end up abusing the sacrament or not really getting all the graces they need as a result.

Absolution is not the end in and of itself - no point in being absolved if, through lack of advice about your sin you end up sinning again five minutes after leaving the confessional!

For the record, yes I have been refused confession on occasions due to time constraints. Once I was the next person in line too. I absolutely don’t resent others taking as long as they need in the confessional, and am happy to come back another time. ALSO for the record I never take more than five minutes myself, not being the chatty type, so I have no dog of my own in this fight.

If other people disagree then it is sad - it seems to me a sign that they DO see the sacrament as just one more to-do item like picking up the groceries or whatever, to be done as quickly and mechanistically as humanly possible. And not as an opportunity to receive God’s grace - which works on HIS time schedule and not ours.

EMHC’s speeding up Communion was not the point of my earlier post, either. The point is/was that the distribution of Communion is NOT the proper time for a person to ask for a blessing, anymore than someone walking up to the priest during Communion and trying to confess to him. There is a time and a place for everything; the distribution of Communion is not the time for a blessing.

I never said it WAS your point. I was just saying it’s viewed as an abuse of the sacrament of communion to rush through it at warp speed. Same with confession.

 

[Timothysis]

I think it’s better one proper confession where the person is sure they’ve confessed all their sins AND gets good advice that keeps them away from sin in the future, than 12 where people forget most of their sins (or worse still, deliberately don’t mention them) because one eye is on the clock, get no advice to help them, and either end up abusing the sacrament or not really getting all the graces they need as a result.

So you’ve just tried, convicted and sentenced 12 people who simply wanted a fair opportunity to confess their sins. Nice.

And no one has said that it there is “one eye on the clock,” either, meaning that we just want to get in and get out. The typical confession shouldn’t take more than a few minutes. If you are ok with waiting and even missing confession along with others, then great but that doesn’t make you the measurement by which all others should be judged. I guess you don’t complain when you have to unfairly wait at the grocery store, post office, doctor’s office or even in traffic, either.

The fact is, everyone has a right to the opportunity of sacramental confession. One person’s desire to go on and on in the confessional does not trump the other person’s right to confess, too. If someone feels the need to talk to a priest under the seal of confession in a conversational way, then they should make an appointment for private confession. Those who wait at the appointed times for confession have a right to reasonable access to the confessional, regardless of your mind frame.

 

[T700]

We need priests, not a timer.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

Seems like this is the answer to all the furious postings. More priests and more confession times.

Paul

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion but I’m sure that there are few who would agree that it is better for one dozen people to miss the opportunity to confess their sins because one person drones on and on in the confessional. Say what you will but there is a certain courtesy involved. Would you say it is better for Mass to begin late because the person in the confessional won’t put an end to it?

How do you or any of us know that those who take too much time (not sure what the time frame should be for a good confession) are droning on. Maybe they really need the time they are taking. I chose to think that is he reason rather than judge the other way.

I really doubt that this is a big issue for the standard confession times. The original poster posted about people “taking too long” at an Advent Penance Service, but again, I must ask, what is the proper time for a good confession?

No one can answer that except for the person going to confession and the priest hearing it. No one else is qualified in anyway to make such a judgment call.

 

[LilyM]

So you’ve just tried, convicted and sentenced 12 people who simply wanted a fair opportunity to confess their sins. Nice.

And what’s your definition of a ‘fair opportunity’? Into the confessional in thirty minutes or less or it’s free? Mine, and the church’s by the looks of it, is one where the penitent gets to say everything what they feel is needful, and take the amount of time they need, not the amount of time you want them to take. Whether that is three minutes or thirty.

And no one has said that it there is “one eye on the clock,” either, meaning that we just want to get in and get out. The typical confession shouldn’t take more than a few minutes. If you are ok with waiting and even missing confession along with others, then great but that doesn’t make you the measurement by which all others should be judged. I guess you don’t complain when you have to unfairly wait at the grocery store, post office, doctor’s office or even in traffic, either.

These are businesses, you pay them good money in part to provide you with quick service. Not priests dispensing the sacraments, who most people pay a pittance considering what they do. Apples and oranges.

And having plenty of doctors in the family, they ought not to be lumped in there either. I can assure you doctors don’t waste any time with any patient - if they take a longer time with some it’s wholly and solely because those patients need it.

The fact is, everyone has a right to the opportunity of sacramental confession. One person’s desire to go on and on in the confessional does not trump the other person’s right to confess, too. If someone feels the need to talk to a priest under the seal of confession in a conversational way, then they should make an appointment for private confession. Those who wait at the appointed times for confession have a right to reasonable access to the confessional, regardless of your mind frame.

Again, the question is our respective definitions of reasonable access. Certainly you wouldn’t suggest that if thirty people were to turn up and he had forty-five minutes he’d be neglecting his duty if he didn’t see every single one of them? Or that the ones who were last in line were somehow hardly done by because they weren’t seen?

See here’s the deal - if it’s so urgent for you to get into the confessional, if your rights so utterly trump anyone else’s, if you’re so utterly lacking in the virtue of patience, then what’s wrong with you making a bit of an effort on your part - say, arriving early to secure your place at the head of the queue? Then you get your reasonable opportunity, the ones who need more time get their time after you’re done and everyone’s happy.

 

[zab]

And what’s your definition of a ‘fair opportunity’? Into the confessional in thirty minutes or less or it’s free? Mine, and the church’s by the looks of it, is one where the penitent gets to say everything what they feel is needful, and take the amount of time they need, not the amount of time you want them to take. Whether that is three minutes or thirty.

These are businesses, you pay them good money in part to provide you with quick service. Not priests dispensing the sacraments, who most people pay a pittance considering what they do. Apples and oranges.

And having plenty of doctors in the family, they ought not to be lumped in there either. I can assure you doctors don’t waste any time with any patient - if they take a longer time with some it’s wholly and solely because those patients need it.

Again, the question is our respective definitions of reasonable access. Certainly you wouldn’t suggest that if thirty people were to turn up and he had forty-five minutes he’d be neglecting his duty if he didn’t see every single one of them? Or that the ones who were last in line were somehow hardly done by because they weren’t seen?

See here’s the deal - if it’s so urgent for you to get into the confessional, if your rights so utterly trump anyone else’s, if you’re so utterly lacking in the virtue of patience, then what’s wrong with you making a bit of an effort on your part - say, arriving early to secure your place at the head of the queue? Then you get your reasonable opportunity, the ones who need more time get their time after you’re done and everyone’s happy.

:tsktsk: No need to make judgements and get snappy against those who disagree with you.