Is it weird for Roman Catholic to switch?

[George720]

P.S. How do you fast on Nativity Eve?

Dec 24th is a strict fast day for us, meaning no food, but water only, or juice as needed, until midnight Service of the Divine Liturgy, then Trapeza in which we break the Fast with probiotics (rather than wind) , and a lot our favorite Christmas foods (spritz and snowballs and mini-sausages at 2AMish, then sleep and breakfast with bacon and eggs and toast and butter and and and… . And opening presents, as we celebrate the First Day of Christmas!

I love Christmas for a lot of reasons, but mostly because it was across three Christmasses that I encountered God each year and began my recovery from atheism to Christianity…

geo

 

[Carolan]

On the subject of NPO fasting, I have a question - a quandary actually. I am a RC who has been attending a UGCC parish for a year. I am trying to adapt to the Eastern practices with the hope of eventually transfering jurisdictions. As a RC, I am allowed water up to an hour before communion. I have prescription medication that must be taken first thing in the morning before eating. Is a sip of water to get the pills down allowed in the EC? Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I’m Ukrainian Greek Catholic and also take medication. I also have to have something to eat in order for my medication to work properly.

On Nativity (Christmas) Eve, my late mother and I would have peanut butter, jelly, crackers and tea for breakfast. In the evening for Holy Supper we had shrimp and vegetables. It was only the two of us so we didn’t make 12 dishes (I have yet to see a 12 dish traditional Ukrainian Holy Supper).

This is what Royal Doors has re fasting:

https://www.royaldoors.net/2017/01/...scribed-ukrainian-greek-catholic-church-2015/

Ask your UGCC pastor for guidance. He can help you discern how you should fast.

 

[George720]

As a RC, I am allowed water up to an hour before communion. I have prescription medication that must be taken first thing in the morning before eating. Is a sip of water to get the pills down allowed in the EC? Any advice would be much appreciated.

That sounds like something to take up with your EC Priest… In the EOC, we normally have you take your meds with water 6 hours prior to receiving Communion, which is the npo rule… The Fast for Sunday Services begins, of course, Saturday after the Vespers Service, and is a Lenten Fast until 6 hours prior to receiving, at which point it goes npo…

Now since the Services begin (for us) at 9am (Orthros) and then 10am (Divine Liturgy), receiving Communion does not take place until about 11:30, so subtracting 6 hours you could take your morning meds with water at 5:30am…

And if that does not work, you can ask your Priest for an Ekonomia Blessing to shorten the time… Man is not made for fasting, but fasting for man…

geo

 

[Carolan]

Thank you, Margaret_Ann, for your reply; it was most helpful, especially the link to Royal Doors. I am over 60 (WAY over) so my problem is less complicated than I thought. However, I will take your advice and discuss it with my pastor as I am in reasonably good health and would like to do what I am able.to do. Thank you again and God bless.

 

[Carolan]

Dear George,
Thanks for your reply. It was very helpful, especially your last sentence. Thank you again and God bless.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

My late mother was in her mid-80s and still fasted on Good Friday, Nativity/Christmas Eve, and never ate meat on Friday or the other fasting days of the Church.

True story: Last year when she was in rehab, they brought her meat on Friday for lunch. She pushed it away and said: I’m sorry but I don’t eat meat on Friday." My mom…

 

[Bill6]

Greetings Christ, I don’t know it if would be considered wierd, but it is highly uncommon and very rare for Catholics to formally change the paticular Churches they belong to. Also, I have read that if the Holy See does approve a switch, it is highly unlikely, or maybe even prohibited, for the Catholic to go back or make another change.

You can still join an Eastern Catholic Parish, and practice Eastern Catholic devotions, and even reccieve some sacraments from Eastern Catholic Priests validy and licitly, all while remaining Roman Catholic. The obligation to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days can be fulfilled in any paticular Church.

This article may help Becoming (Or at Least Marrying) an Eastern Catholic - Canon Law Made EasyCanon Law Made Easy

God bless and Mary keep you.

 

[TMS1213]

(I’m Maronite, not Byzantine).

I was told by a priest of the SSPX, a Maronite Catholic originally, that the Maronite Rite was as effected by Vatican II as was the Latin Church. Would you concur?

 

[XXI_4]

I was told by a priest of the SSPX, a Maronite Catholic originally, that the Maronite Rite was as effected by Vatican II as was the Latin Church. Would you concur?

Affected how? The Maronite Church has been heavily Latinized since reunion with Rome (in a physical sense, they were not in schism but rather hiding in the mountains of Lebanon) in the 12 or 13th century.

So without more specific questions, I’ll take a stab at this. The Maronite Church has been heavily latinized (in ritual, theology and spirituality) for centuries. Some of this was forced, some of it was self inflicted almost as if the Maronites had an inferiority complex and decided “we’ll do whatever Rome does so we can make them happy”.

So Vatican II comes along and, rightly, tells the Eastern churches that they must all eschew latin influences and return to their authentic traditions. But Maronites have been latinized for so long (and all our original liturgical texts were burned by over zealous Jesuit missionaries) that we not only have a hard time figuring out what our authentic traditions are, but there is resistance to even trying to return to them because people are so used to being so much like the latins.

Of course, in typical “let’s imitate Rome” fashion, the Maronite church has picked up a few post VII liturgical bad habits along the way. It’s much more noticeable in Lebanon and the rest of the diaspora than in the US. Here there has been a push for decades for Maronite reforms in order to return to tradition, but unfortunately Bkerke has been resistant.

By the way, is the priest you’re talking about currently SSPX? I know that’s what you wrote, but I ask because I know a Maronite priest who went the other direction. He was SSPX for 20-some years and left and became a Maronite priest a couple years ago.

If you have any specific questions, I can try to answer them.

 

[babochka]

but it is highly uncommon and very rare for Catholics to formally change the paticular Churches they belong to.

Not really, except perhaps due to the relatively small numbers of Eastern Catholics.

It would be a rare Eastern Catholic pastor in the US who hasn’t dealt with this.

When my husband began the process, our priest told him that it was extremely common in Europe, which surprised me. Apparently, people there are much less likely to attend an Eastern Catholic parish long-term without formalizing the change.

I have read that if the Holy See does approve a switch

The permission of the Holy See is required, but there is usually no direct involvement from Rome. In most cases, the permission is presumed.

 

[TMS1213]

I think you hit right on the spot. This priest has been SSPX for quite some time. I have never met him, personally, we correspond. (Kind of long to go into that one) Obviously, he meant that the Maronites have picked up on the bad habits of the Latin Rite. I had asked him if the Maronite Rite was an option when discussing the Novus Ordo and that was his reply, no.

 

[Bill6]

Thank you, I didn’t know all that.
God bless and have a blessed Christmas.

 

[XXI_4]

Obviously, he meant that the Maronites have picked up on the bad habits of the Latin Rite. I had asked him if the Maronite Rite was an option when discussing the Novus Ordo and that was his reply, no.

As I said, in some places it is more obvious than others.

But I feel like something needs to be said here, and please don’t take this as an attack on you personally. This may not even apply to you, but I want to say it for the benefit of everyone. Also, this is my own personal opinion, I don’t speak for any other Maronites or Eastern Catholics.

Here goes. You will find that in general Eastern Catholics are very welcoming and happy to have visitors that want to learn about us. We welcome those who are just curious and want to visit, as well as those who are interested in becoming Eastern Catholic. I really enjoy explaining the differences in our Churches with my RC brothers & sisters whenever I get the opportunity.

On the other hand, what I take great offense to is people attending Eastern liturgies because “at least it isn’t a novus ordo!”. Not people who are curious, but people who attend just so they don’t have to go to a OF mass, and who would stop attending Eastern liturgies in a heartbeat if a TLM or SSPX mass became available to them.

Not only that, but it down right infuriates me when people take it further and refuse to follow our rubrics, or try to convince Eastern Catholics to change their practices or why they are inferior. For example, genuflecting instead of bowing, kneeling during the institution, kneeling during communion, etc., etc. I don’t say this for people who come and just don’t know any better - those who aren’t familiar with our practices. I’m talking about people who either know what our rubrics are, because they’re just going to do what they personally think is better. And I know that this happens, I’ve seen it first hand.

Sometimes when I travel for vacations, there is not only no Maronite parish, but not any Eastern parishes in the area. In those cases I have no problem attending a latin rite mass, either OF or EF. When I do, I follow the rubrics of whatever mass I am attending. I wouldn’t dare decide that I was going to stand for the institution while everyone else is kneeling.

The Eastern Catholic churches are not there to be used as a Novus Ordo alternative until something better comes along and then discarded. We don’t just have our own liturgies, but we have our own traditions, theology, spirituality and praxis and it really gets under my skin when people disrespect that.

Again, please don’t take this as an attack on you personally. I’m only trying to convey how I feel about the situation where people who don’t have access to an EF/SSPX mass look at the East as no more than a begrudgingly acceptable (or I guess in this case not even acceptable lol) alternative to the OF of mass.

I apologize if this post offends you, or anyone else who reads it. This is just a subject that I am personally very touchy about and I hope that I haven’t been too harsh or uncharitable. If I have, please forgive me.

 

[TMS1213]

Not at all. I had considered attending our local Maronite parish for the experience of doing so. I don’t know the rubrics (when to stand, sit bow instead of genuflecting etc) so perhaps you could be of an assist. I fully understand your frustration with those who use it as a 'weigh station", if you will, until they find the next best thing.

 

[XXI_4]

Sure, I’d be happy to. You’ll find some variations depending on parish and how traditional the priest is. But assuming you’re in the US:

There are holy water fonts when you enter. People typically bless themselves when entering slightly bowing toward the tabernacle or altar.

There is no reverencing of icons or anything when entering like the Byzantines do.

Most of the time people will stop before they enter a pew and offer a prayer (I personally say a short prayer then offer my communion and prayers for certain intentions) then cross themselves and sit. You’ll find some older people who still genuflect because they grew up that way. If you do out of habit, it’s fine. There should be rather thick burgundy books that say “Book of Offering” on them in the pews or at the entrance. Those are the missals.

Except for Pentecost and some Lent liturgies, there is no kneeling. Our liturgical prayer posture is standing. Kneeling is seen as penitential, not reverential. You may find some people who will still kneel, especially at the institution, but at this point in the US it is very rare. Mostly older people who grew up with latinized rubrics. There is some really good information about it here: Liturgical Postures | Living Maronite

When the priest or deacon incenses the congregation, make a slight bow and cross yourself. There are also lots of blessings throughout. Just cross yourself when these are done.

During the Our Father and the last prayer before communion, we extend our arms, palms up. Not quite “orans”, but similar (info on this in that link above as well). It’s in our rubrics. Also at the Our Father, there is no break between “deliver us from evil” and the doxology, it is one prayer.

Communion is done by intinction, on the tongue, while standing. There is a mixed preference for remaining standing or sitting while praying after communion. You’ll normally see both.

I’d recommend if you get there a little early introducing yourself to the priest or deacon. Our parishes are usually smaller and the priests know everyone. If they don’t recognize you, typically after liturgy they will introduce themselves and chat with you.

I think that’s the basics…if you have any questions, please ask or feel free to DM me.

@Phillip_Rolfes did I forget anything?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

On the other hand, what I take great offense to is people attending Eastern liturgies because “at least it isn’t a novus ordo!”. Not people who are curious, but people who attend just so they don’t have to go to a OF mass, and who would stop attending Eastern liturgies in a heartbeat if a TLM or SSPX mass became available to them.

After VII, a lot of RCs discovered the Eastern Catholic Churches. Our former sacristan (he died in 2001 - eternal memory!) was 1 year away from being ordained a RC priest when the RC rite of ordination was changed. He left the seminary rather than be ordained according to the new RC rite of ordination.

Because his grandmother was Ukrainian Greek Catholic, he was familiar with the Divine Liturgy and started attending my parish. I don’t know if he ever formally switched though.

He’d pray the Rosary before Liturgy without fail. Father would ask him to do something and he did it. He was a very quiet person and didn’t talk much. The only thing that got him mad was if anyone made a remark against the Faith. Then he’d be like a tiger ready to pounce.

He gave me some books which I still have today and made me aware of the crisis in the Church. If I remember right, he died on the Feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Cont’d

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Not only that, but it down right infuriates me when people take it further and refuse to follow our rubrics, or try to convince Eastern Catholics to change their practices or why they are inferior. For example, genuflecting instead of bowing, kneeling during the institution, kneeling during communion, etc., etc. I don’t say this for people who come and just don’t know any better - those who aren’t familiar with our practices. I’m talking about people who either know what our rubrics are, because they’re just going to do what they personally think is better. And I know that this happens, I’ve seen it first hand.

Cont’d

So have I. Our parish has some transplanted RCs who genuflect in church too.

We still kneel for the words of consecration except during Paschaltide. Then after Pentecost we resume kneeling again. The same applies for kneeling in the pew during communion.

A lot of our parishioners are elderly and they kneel because that’s how they were taught. I can tell you that if Father said no more kneeling on Sundays he’d have a brouhaha re kneeling. Never mind the fact that in our cathedral in Philadelphia everyone stands and they put in the bulletin that you’re supposed to stand. Yet even in the cathedral, some people will kneel.

A RC friend of mine came with me to church and genuflected before I could say anything. OTOH, my friend actually tried to sing “Lord, have mercy.” during the Liturgy.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

The Eastern Catholic churches are not there to be used as a Novus Ordo alternative until something better comes along and then discarded.

1000 upvotes for this comment - best one on this thread. Should be boldfaced imo.

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

Great post @XXI_4!

As a Roman Catholic turned Maronite, I personally appreciate all you have to say here. People have asked me why I decided to “go East,” and I’ve always responded that it was the process of my own personal spiritual journey, not me running from anything. I was actually quite happy attending the Ordinary Form of the Mass, as it was the foundation of my spiritual life all the way through college (and yes, I’d attended the Extraordinary Form a number of times as well). I became intrigued by the East thanks to a Byzantine Catholic priest who was very persistent about inviting me out to his parish. When I finally decided to go, I immediately experienced this “at home” feeling right when I walked into the Church. This was confirmed later by the deacon’s wife. I encountered her later that week in a Catholic bookstore, and she said, “Phillip. I didn’t know you were Byzantine!” To which I responded, “I’m not. That was my first time going to a Byzantine Liturgy.” She told me that she thought I was Byzantine because I looked like I knew what was going on throughout the entire Liturgy.

But, back to your post. I’ve often encountered Roman Catholics who turn to the East as way of fleeing from the problems in their own church. I tell them quite frankly that running East to get away from the problems in the West is a bad idea. In the end they’ll just be swapping one set of problems for a completely different set of problems. Every church has its issues - Roman, Maronite, Byzantine, Melkite, etc. - because every church is made up of sinners and imperfect human beings. No liturgy on this earth is perfect because our liturgies are themselves a dim reflection of the heavenly liturgy that we look forward to in the life to come. If someone is looking East as some sort of safe-haven from the problems of the West, they’ll soon be disillusioned and either return West, or become Orthodox. That’s been my experience at least.