Is it wrong for a Catholic woman to work and have a family?

[catholicmamajoy]

We actually had that situation - hubby was unemployed (during the recession, was laid off) and I was working.
He was full-time housewife, and I’m sorry, but he kinda stunk at it.
I mean, he’d make food every so often and clean a bathroom; but being at home depressed him.
He felt he wasn’t contributing, and it felt emasculating to be “provided for.”
All his time was spent on the computer and he gained weight; poor guy, it was NOT a good time for him.

I don’t want to generalize here, but my husband really needs to be the breadwinner.
We joke about how he’d like to be a “kept man”, but I know he’d hate it in the long run.

:twocents:
Peace,
~ PetiteFoi

You have demonstrated one of the points I made in my post on a previous thread: it’s up to each family to determine, based on temperament, needs, and situation, what is best for their family when it comes to paid employment outside the home.

This current thread really ought to be locked. While some may have strong opinions to the contrary, the Church does not condemn married women (with or without children) who are employed outside the home. St Gianna, wife, mother, and medical doctor who worked outside the home, please pray for us!

 

[Debora123]

Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” 17* And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

From the very begining when Adam listen to his wife, God cursed the ground because of Adam’s sin and proclamied that the husband shall rule over the wife. God then charged Adam with the “Role” that he would toil (provide for) the rest of his life.

These are God given roles, not worldly stereotypes.

“I wholeheartedly agree. I hate those stereotypes as well and try to deconstruct them when I see them, too.”

Eve is still alive and well…

We are Catholics, not fundamentalist Christians, and we are most certainly not sola scriptura.

According to our CATHOLIC FAITH, it is perfectly acceptable for a women to work outside the home and/or for the father to be the homemaker if that is what the couple deems is best for the family.

 

[Lochias]

Well, rest assured that is not how I feel. If a family decides they want the woman to stay home, that is completely up to them and none of my business.

But likewise, it goes both ways. Statements some women make around here saying that they would not work unless they were on the brink of starvation or something, can also sound like they think it’s selfish for women to work unless that were the case. It’s best not to read to much into what people say when they are talking about personal preferences.

True. I’ll keep both points in mind, in future.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Forgive me for once again derailing the thread

There are things in US economy that greatly puzzle me, and this is one of them: how can one paycheck (the mother’s) cover only a car, gas, and daycare (expenses connected with actually having the job), while the other paycheck in the family (the father’s) covers a car, gas, and all the other expenses the family has (bills, food, clothes, and anything else people spend money on)?

This is so often cited as the reason why it makes more sense for US mothers to stay at home.

Is daycare that expensive? Or are women’s salaries in the US so low? Would the father’s salary also only cover daycare and the car and gas he uses to get to work?

Thank you in advance for clarifying this to me.

I’m not an economist, but I understand that part of the reason has to do with taxes.

A second income often changes the tax bracket of the family to a higher tax bracket, while at the same time lowering the amount of deductions permitted.

So often the second salary might not be economically feasable-- paying a higher tax rate, losing a deduction and then having to pay for child care, commuting costs etc.

For some families it’s a possibility, for others no, depending on the income. The second income needs to be low enought to not change the tax rate, or high enough that even with a changed tax rate, the other expenses are not too burdensome.

 

[Julianna]

Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” 17* And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; 18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

From the very begining when Adam listen to his wife, God cursed the ground because of Adam’s sin and proclamied that the husband shall rule over the wife. God then charged Adam with the “Role” that he would toil (provide for) the rest of his life.

These are God given roles, not worldly stereotypes.

“I wholeheartedly agree. I hate those stereotypes as well and try to deconstruct them when I see them, too.”

Eve is still alive and well…

How about this, when the Church kicks in some green to support this, I’ll be more than happy to stay home and have babies.

Oh, yeah, it doesn’t, I owe, I owe, so off to work I go. I don’t recall Adam and Eve have a Cape Cod in suburbia with a mortgage, a car, taxes to pay, etc. And if I read correctly, they didn’t have a clothing budget.

This is “REALITY”.

 

[Debora123]

How about this, when the Church kicks in some green to support this, I’ll be more than happy to stay home and have babies.

Oh, yeah, it doesn’t, I owe, I owe, so off to work I go. I don’t recall Adam and Eve have a Cape Cod in suburbia with a mortgage, a car, taxes to pay, etc. And if I read correctly, they didn’t have a clothing budget.

This is “REALITY”.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

I’m sorry ladies, I’m guilty of trolling a bit.

I knew Debora would sound off!

 

[Debora123]

I’m sorry ladies, I’m guilty of trolling a bit.

I knew Debora would sound off!

Lol, I’m probably one of the least of your worries, since I plan on being a stay at home mom anyway.

I’m sure the ladies here who actually are working moms got their cages rattled from your post a lot more than myself.

 

[Litcrit]

I’m sorry ladies, I’m guilty of trolling a bit.

I knew Debora would sound off!

Thank you for clarifying.

But, actually, I did give birth without any pain relief, and I don’t sweat at my work, so we’re fine as a couple

The crux of what you are saying, I think, is that both husband and wife need to do the best they can in their particular situation in order to put family first, and I strongly agree with that. And I agree about the importance of the mother being with her babies (except in sad cases like that of the mother you describe above).

I think most men are probably not suited to staying at home; my husband certainly isn’t, and I had to tell him as kindly as I could that he just wasn’t a very good homemaker and that trying to be one seemed to be bad for him. But the most important thing to me is that young children are cared for by a parent, and if it’s in everyone’s best interests that that be the father, then so be it.

Yes, that would be the crux.

All I’m asking for is not to approach things top-down (all men should be like this / all women should be like that) but bottom-up (we as a couple function this way; many of our neighbors and friends do too; that doesn’t mean everyone does or should).

For instance, you sound just like my husband. This morning, I was home alone with the kids for three hours. When he came back, he instantly noticed the mess, the dirty dishes, the toys everywhere, and didn’t appreciate it that I’d allowed the kids to watch cartoons.

When I come home from work, our home is spotless, and the kids are calm and clean and happy. But I sometimes don’t notice the difference. He can’t understand it, as he’s very organized and clean.

 

[Serap]

Lol, I’m probably one of the least of your worries, since I plan on being a stay at home mom anyway.

I’m sure the ladies here who actually are working moms got their cages rattled from your post a lot more than myself.

oh so NOW we belong in cages!!! thanks Deb!

 

[Debora123]

oh so NOW we belong in cages!!! thanks Deb!

Haha, yep!

And we can’t leave the cage without hubby’s permission…

 

[Lochias]

How about this, when the Church kicks in some green to support this, I’ll be more than happy to stay home and have babies.

This might be an oversimplification, don’t you think? I think some people are called to work, and some aren’t. The Church exists to teach us how to live morally and to give us the tools we need to do that, not pay for our expenses.

Oh, yeah, it doesn’t, I owe, I owe, so off to work I go. I don’t recall Adam and Eve have a Cape Cod in suburbia with a mortgage, a car, taxes to pay, etc. And if I read correctly, they didn’t have a clothing budget.

This is “REALITY”.

While I don’t think every mom is able to be a SAHM, I think many people lack the faith and trust in God to take a chance and see how it goes. It’s obvious that Dad working to earn the bread and Mom working to upkeep the home and kids is the ideal situation; that’s how our brains are wired.

You seem to be awfully militant in terms of being against this ideal.

 

[Bookcat]

Q: Is it wrong for a Catholic woman to work and have a family?

A: Yes

Reason: Women are not to work at all…no taking care of kids, doing any cleaning, no educating children, cooking, keeping the husband from forgetting what he is to do, no taking the kids places, no changing diapers etc.

(my wife would sign off on this…)

 

[Lochias]

As a further point, it seems to me that a lot of the women here are assuming that men are just sort of pointing their fingers with a smirk and ordering women into the home and away from the outside world.

As a man who has some major social anxiety issues from time to time, the idea of being in a marriage someday wherein I am the one responsible for earning the bread terrifies me, to be frank; but I have seen the love and comfort of a home wherein the man does that, and the woman is queen of her home.

I can assure everyone here that, if I were lucky enough to be married and have that situation, I would consider my wife to be the hardest-working, most loving and reliable woman on the face of the planet. I would bend over backwards to accommodate a wife who would be willing to be at home with the kids during the day.

That’s just my two cents. Not running anyone down for their choices, but I feel like the men are getting an unfair rap here.

 

[Litcrit]

It’s obvious that Dad working to earn the bread and Mom working to upkeep the home and kids is the ideal situation;

It might seem obvious to you; it’s obviously not obvious to many families who don’t opt for this “ideal” even though they could and instead opt for options that work for their families, such as shared working/childcare arrangements.

that’s how our brains are wired.

Can you quote some studies that would conclusively prove this claim? And where does one get a brain scan to figure out how one’s particular brain is wired?

 

[Litcrit]

As a further point, it seems to me that a lot of the women here are assuming that men are just sort of pointing their fingers with a smirk and ordering women into the home and away from the outside world.

As a man who has some major social anxiety issues from time to time, the idea of being in a marriage someday wherein I am the one responsible for earning the bread terrifies me, to be frank; but I have seen the love and comfort of a home wherein the man does that, and the woman is queen of her home.

I can assure everyone here that, if I were lucky enough to be married and have that situation, I would consider my wife to be the hardest-working, most loving and reliable woman on the face of the planet. I would bend over backwards to accommodate a wife who would be willing to be at home with the kids during the day.

That’s just my two cents. Not running anyone down for their choices, but I feel like the men are getting an unfair rap here.

That couldn’t be further from what at least I am getting at.

If you have anxiety issues, but look forward to the love and comfort of home, you might be well suited for a SAHD, or at least part time SAHD.

I consider my husband to be very hard-working, loving, and reliable as well and appreciate greatly all the work he does in our home taking care of our children.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Q: Is it wrong for a Catholic woman to work and have a family?

A: Yes

Reason: Women are not to work at all…no taking care of kids, doing any cleaning, no educating children, cooking, keeping the husband from forgetting what he is to do, no taking the kids places, no changing diapers etc.

(my wife would sign off on this…)

You forgot all about the bon-bons. And the tv with the soaps. While lounging with our robe and slippers.

 

[Bookcat]

Ok seriously. Yes a wife can work outside the home. But should not be compelled to.

A good reading from Bl. Pope John Paul II’s APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
FAMILIARIS CONSORTIO:

"23. Without intending to deal with all the various aspects of the vast and complex theme of the relationships between women and society, and limiting these remarks to a few essential points, one cannot but observe that in the specific area of family life a widespread social and cultural tradition has considered women’s role to be exclusively that of wife and mother, without adequate access to public functions which have generally been reserved for men.

There is no doubt that the equal dignity and responsibility of men and women fully justifies women’s access to public functions. On the other hand the true advancement of women requires that clear recognition be given to the value of their maternal and family role, by comparison with all other public roles and all other professions. Furthermore, these roles and professions should be harmoniously combined, if we wish the evolution of society and culture to be truly and fully human.

This will come about more easily if, in accordance with the wishes expressed by the Synod, a renewed “theology of work” can shed light upon and study in depth the meaning of work in the Christian life and determine the fundamental bond between work and the family, and therefore the original and irreplaceable meaning of work in the home and in rearing children.(66) Therefore the Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value. This is of particular importance in education: for possible discrimination between the different types of work and professions is eliminated at its very root once it is clear that all people, in every area, are working with equal rights and equal responsibilities. The image of God in man and in woman will thus be seen with added luster.

While it must be recognized that women have the same right as men to perform various public functions, society must be structured in such a way that wives and mothers are not in practice compelled to work outside the home, and that their families can live and prosper in a dignified way even when they themselves devote their full time to their own family.

Furthermore, the mentality which honors women more for their work outside the home than for their work within the family must be overcome. This requires that men should truly esteem and love women with total respect for their personal dignity, and that society should create and develop conditions favoring work in the home.

With due respect to the different vocations of men and women, the Church must in her own life promote as far as possible their equality of rights and dignity: and this for the good of all, the family, the Church and society.

But clearly all of this does not mean for women a renunciation of their femininity or an imitation of the male role, but the fullness of true feminine humanity which should be expressed in their activity, whether in the family or outside of it, without disregarding the differences of customs and cultures in this sphere."

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html

 

[Lochias]

It might seem obvious to you; it’s obviously not obvious to many families who don’t opt for this “ideal” even though they could and instead opt for options that work for their families, such as shared working/childcare arrangements.

If they never try, how do they know what all will work and what won’t?

Can you quote some studies that would conclusively prove this claim? And where does one get a brain scan to figure out how one’s particular brain is wired?

Can you, for the opposite? There are studies out there that speak to both sides; none of them seem very neutral. I speak from personal experience and from the experiences of those around me who have talked about such things, as well as observation.

I’m sure we can both provide anecdotes for each side of the debate; the tie-breaker, for me, are the examples that our Church history, teachings and Traditions have given.

 

[Bookcat]

Ok seriously. Yes a wife can work outside the home. But should not be compelled to.

A good reading from Bl. Pope John Paul II’s APOSTOLIC EXHORTATION
FAMILIARIS CONSORTIO:

"23. Without intending to deal with all the various aspects of the vast and complex theme of the relationships between women and society, and limiting these remarks to a few essential points, one cannot but observe that in the specific area of family life a widespread social and cultural tradition has considered women’s role to be exclusively that of wife and mother, without adequate access to public functions which have generally been reserved for men.

There is no doubt that the equal dignity and responsibility of men and women fully justifies women’s access to public functions. On the other hand the true advancement of women requires that clear recognition be given to the value of their maternal and family role, by comparison with all other public roles and all other professions. Furthermore, these roles and professions should be harmoniously combined, if we wish the evolution of society and culture to be truly and fully human.

This will come about more easily if, in accordance with the wishes expressed by the Synod, a renewed “theology of work” can shed light upon and study in depth the meaning of work in the Christian life and determine the fundamental bond between work and the family, and therefore the original and irreplaceable meaning of work in the home and in rearing children.(66) Therefore the Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value. This is of particular importance in education: for possible discrimination between the different types of work and professions is eliminated at its very root once it is clear that all people, in every area, are working with equal rights and equal responsibilities. The image of God in man and in woman will thus be seen with added luster.

While it must be recognized that women have the same right as men to perform various public functions, society must be structured in such a way that wives and mothers are not in practice compelled to work outside the home, and that their families can live and prosper in a dignified way even when they themselves devote their full time to their own family.

Furthermore, the mentality which honors women more for their work outside the home than for their work within the family must be overcome. This requires that men should truly esteem and love women with total respect for their personal dignity, and that society should create and develop conditions favoring work in the home.

With due respect to the different vocations of men and women, the Church must in her own life promote as far as possible their equality of rights and dignity: and this for the good of all, the family, the Church and society.

But clearly all of this does not mean for women a renunciation of their femininity or an imitation of the male role, but the fullness of true feminine humanity which should be expressed in their activity, whether in the family or outside of it, without disregarding the differences of customs and cultures in this sphere."

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio_en.html