Is it wrong to disagree with God but still obey?

[JosephDColeman]

This is another reason that self gratification is so damaging, one gets that release of bonding chemicals without a spouse.

I don’t understand how someone would be crazy enough to get married WITHOUT being influenced by that bonding chemical . I guess this is the root of my confusion. I feel like “no sex before marriage” only makes sense if we are first paired with a spouse, then expected to fall in love with them. In modern society, however, we are told to marry someone we fall in love with.

 

[JosephDColeman]

In short, does God approve of certain things because they are good, or do things become good only because God approves of them?

I feel like I’m struggling more with thinking “no sex before marriage” is a rule carried over from previous societies where marriage was arranged and is incompatible with the idea that we should marry someone we already are in love with.

 

[TMC]

I feel like I’m struggling more with thinking “no sex before marriage” is a rule carried over from previous societies where marriage was arranged and is incompatible with the idea that we should marry someone we already are in love with.

Well, that falls into the framework I laid out. If you believe that God wants what is good for you, and for all of us, you have to decide whether God would determine this to be good. Others are eager to tell you what they think, and you should consider their counsel; but only you can decide what you will do.

It sounds like you are wavering as to whether you agree with what you have been told is God’s view on that matter. You may feel that others may be wrong about that. You have to figure out whether your feelings truly represent an informed position based on a well-formed conscience, or are merely your own self-justification of what you already want to do. Others can advise you on how to arrive at that answer, and many will tell you what they think the answer will be. I will not because, at the end of the day, only you can decide that. I know you are already 30, but I would suggest you are arriving at a realization of what adulthood entails - taking real responsibility for your own opinions and the actions based upon them. If you do what you truly believe is right, you will be fine. But you need to make that determination, without self-deception, to the best of your abilities.

 

[Irishmom2]

I don’t think anyone Is suggesting you marry someone you have no physical/chemical attraction to. Just that you must know them and be attracted to them for who they are inside, and everything about them like their faith, their beliefs, their life goals and dreams. If all of that meshes with you, I am sure that you will feel the other side. And when that does, you need to wait for marriage.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Strictly answering your thread title…

A person may be at a point in their faith journey where their desire to please God is stronger than their own private thoughts and feelings.

Or they may have had a sudden conversion experience and haven’t learned all the “rules” yet.

Or they’re very young and have been influenced by the media and surrounding culture before they “knew better” about Christian moral teaching.

Then yes, obedience in the presence of private disagreement is an unavoidable step in their faith journey.

But hopefully as the person grows in faith, they put aside “blind” obedience for a genuine agreement.

 

[RolandThompsonGunner]

To have sex.

I don’t know if you’re just not coming off right, but it sounds like you’re thinking of sex primarily as a transaction. That’s not the healthiest way to approach it, to put it mildly.

 

[Pug]

I can understand waiting until marriage if the girl is a virgin, but to have to get married before I can sleep with her when another guy didn’t have to make that commitment to get the same thing is crazy to me.

Some of the things in your post seem hypothetical, but this part makes it sound like there might be a specific woman who wants you to wait. If this is so, it might be good to address head on the issue of not thinking that she is worth it. Or, if there is some kind of pressure being applied, address that. Maybe my old nose has missed the point, if so, no biggie.

 

[Vico]

…

To fall in love.

It is all based upon charity and respect for God the author of life. Conjugal relations can result in pregnancy for which there needs to be a committed union by which the child is raised and provided moral teaching. Other approaches lead to contraception and abortion.

 

[0Scarlett_nidiyilii]

Some people fetishize virginity — like it’s some sort of magical threshold that brings you into the world of the grownups , or a pledge to a new and different lifestyle.

I’ve had people say to me things like “I don’t know if I really want to have sex with this guy, but on the other hand, it’s not like I’m a virgin anymore, so what does it matter?”

Yikes!

Having had sex once doesn’t mean every guy you meet is entitled to have sex with you forever more

 

[Pug]

“I don’t know if I really want to have sex with this guy, but on the other hand, it’s not like I’m a virgin anymore, so what does it matter?”

Making the decision to have relations this way seems unfortunate, but I can picture someone reasoning that way. Especially when the culture does not support envisioning the decision as having any importance.

 

[MNathaniel]

I can understand waiting until marriage if the girl is a virgin, but to have to get married before I can sleep with her when another guy didn’t have to make that commitment to get the same thing is crazy to me. I’m a very physical guy and if there is no sexuality why wouldn’t I just hang out with my guy friends? I don’t get it… I just can’t seem to fall for someone without the physical aspect… Honestly the physical aspect seems to make up for where the personality is lacking.

Hi brother,

Praise God that you’re struggling through this, and working to obey God’s will even when you don’t understand it!

Since you indicated that you “want to learn more about this and how [your] views are flawed”, I bolded the parts of your quote that I think may be a good start, for offering up to God and asking Him to help you work back to the roots of.

Specifically, it sounds like when you think about a relationship with a woman, you’re primarily thinking about what you can “get” from her. Not what you can give to her. And marriage is about a mutual self-gift of love… not mutual grasping for love. While feelings of attraction are absolutely important for a couple considering marriage, your comment expresses a preoccupation with what you want to receive from a woman (especially physically intimate touch, and the heady feeling of ‘falling in love’ (which passes! The honeymoon phase fades for most people and then you get back to the lifetime hard work of a real relationship). And it sounds like you find it difficult to see what unique gifts a woman brings to the table beyond the physical act of sex itself?

Honestly, your comment reminds me of what a beautiful gift male chastity gives women, haha… Because (again I mean this with genuine respect for you and where you’re at right now), if you weren’t being obediently chaste right now, some poor woman might get stuck with you when you don’t even like her except for what you can ‘get’ from her body, and if she suffered a post-marriage injury that took sex off the table, you might resent her and feel tempted to abandon her and go hang out with your male friends, or leave her for another woman. So this period of abstinence is allowing you to meet women with a clear head, and God is protecting you (and all women) from you accidentally entrapping yourself into marriage with a woman who you wouldn’t otherwise love (as God means you to).

Because hopefully you do want to really fall in love (not fall in lust)? And to love is to will the good of the other. Let God keep forming you in His own image: That of Christ, who gave his life for his bride (before the consummation).

 

[MNathaniel]

PS, You mentioned wanting to read JPII’s book about it. I take it you mean ‘Theology of the Body’? Wonderful idea! but you’re feeling confused about where to start, with so many different versions.

Hopefully others can share versions they found helpful. I know Christopher West is popular for making TOB accessible, as is Jason Evert. I can’t recommend a specific version for a man since, as a lady, I bought and benefitted from a female-targeted breakdown written by Evert’s wife (well, written by both of them. But the book was explicitly for women). But maybe check out one of their apostolates (with plenty of online videos available, and book recommendations listed) as a jumping off point to grow further in this area?

http://www.theologyofthebody.net

Chastity

 

[MNathaniel]

SPBlitz:

That she found your personality lacking, but your physicality made up for it.

I’ve always relied heavily on my physicality in relationships. That’s one of the root causes of my struggle with chastity. I’ve always gotten affirmation out of someone being attracted to me. If I can’t impress them with words, I always could physically. It was my go to.

Of course all of my relationships have failed so I’m not saying I’m right.

Adding to my other comments after reading this one of yours. In my first comments I was emphasizing the ways that God is protecting women from having a relationship with someone who isn’t ready to love them properly yet. This comment of yours reminded me that you might need to be reminded that you are also worth more than being ‘used’ for your physicality. It’s not a one-way street where the man always uses the woman, and I didn’t mean to imply that. Women use men too. Sin and weakness are part of the fallen human condition.

But Christ has redeemed us. God loves you without needing to be ‘impressed’ by you. He sees you at your worst and still loves you. Even when you reject him, ignore him, fail to affirm him – or even outright act against him, he still loves you. And more amazing than that: He likes you. You, particularly. In the unique person that you have been created to be. He sees you in your weakness and brokenness, and He wants to take care of you for your sake, and shower you with love for your sake.

And he loves all his daughters the same way. And He wants you to learn to love them the same way.

Honestly it sounds to me like this is such a time of healing for you. You may not see it yet – but from the brief ways you’ve described your past, including relying on your physicality to ‘get’ affirmation from women, so you can ‘get’ sex from them, in some kind of mutually grasping barter system of mutual use, instead of mutual self-gift of love… God wants so much more for you than this. Just keep being obedient to Him, and keep walking; He’s the good shepherd and He’ll walk you through it, even if He has to walk you over water.

 

[ReaderT]

Am I wrong for [disagreeing] with God?

A man asked something like this to Saint Paisios, and the Saint responded, “Beloved, can you levitate a rock - even a small pebble - in mid air?” That being said, I think we all have areas of the Christian faith where we sometimes bristle and find it hard to understand, myself included!

 

[MNathaniel]

I just can’t seem to fall for someone without the physical aspect… I’m a very physical guy and if there is no sexuality why wouldn’t I just hang out with my guy friends?.. Honestly the physical aspect seems to make up for where the personality is lacking.

And to withhold sex until marriage seems to work more in favor of women because after men have had sex that drive to impress is removed and they oftentimes realise they don’t actually like the person for who that person is and it was just the sex drive deceiving them all along.

Sorry, which is it? Do you feel you need sex in order to like a woman? Or do you feel that your judgment is clouded to think you like a woman until after you have sex, at which point you realize you don’t like her at all?

I think you definitely have some confused beliefs about sex and relationships, bouncing around your mind and heart. I’ve got a previous life in the world too; I agree it comes with baggage. And it takes some time and healing before we ourselves are actually ready to be healthy partners in healthy relationships. My prayer for you is that you keep turning to God, and ask Him to make you more like Christ. To give you eyes to see and ears to hear: to see yourself clearly; to see what you’re called to; to see how loved you are by God and how you shouldn’t settle for less; and to hear that a woman needs the same things.

And maybe to work on trusting God. That you can give love with a generous heart, and don’t have to ‘grasp’ for it from others. That you can leave your hand open, and let God put good things into it. You don’t have to close your hand tightly onto something and ‘control’ or manipulate affection or affirmation to come to you.

PS I’ve heard some men say that it was only after a long period of sexual abstinence (including from, e.g., pornography/masturbation), that their heads started to clear and they started to be able to see themselves and human relationships more clearly. Matt Fradd is an awesome voice in this space, if you’re interested (he started his career as an anti-pornography speaker. He’s Aussie and awesome). He runs some kind of men’s chastity and mutual accountability group (thousands of men, I think). Not super familiar with it but maybe check that out; that might be a community that could relate to your situation and offer you frank and brotherly conversation about it?

 

[MNathaniel]

I don’t understand how someone would be crazy enough to get married WITHOUT being influenced by that bonding chemical . I guess this is the root of my confusion. I feel like “no sex before marriage” only makes sense if we are first paired with a spouse, then expected to fall in love with them. In modern society, however, we are told to marry someone we fall in love with.

I think the idea is that, although you express (especially given your history of sexual activity) that you now can’t imagine ‘falling in love’ prior to sex, I’d actually suggest it’s more normal for a healthy human body/mind/soul to be able to ‘fall in love’ prior to sex. So if this is indeed “at the root of your confusion”… maybe focus your gaze on counterexamples and evidence that falling in love before sex is very normal! You may have personally found yourself in a state of unhealth where you’re doubting your ability to have this experience… but society and history are swarming with both men and women pining away in love with people they’ve never had sex with. (And even for those sort of ‘paired up’ by matchmakers, I’ve never personally seen evidence that those who do go on to fall in love, fall in love because of sex chemicals. Some still don’t ‘fall in love’ (but may grow to love each other deeply in the most important way). Those that do still have the ‘falling in love’ experience, seems more like love comes as they get to know each other better as human beings, not from ‘sex chemicals are affecting us now’.)

In my case, the only time I ever fell in love (so far), I fell in love prior to any sexual contact. (Even prior to kissing, if I recollect correctly.) Sex is just not, biochemically, a mandatory component in the ‘falling in love’ process. It adds its own chemicals, sure, and can enhance bonding… but ‘falling in love’ came waaaaaaay sooner than physical contact, for me.

I only mention in case remembering this might help you at least say “Oh right, that’s silly” to the whispers of the enemy that you should intellectually believe that ‘falling in love’ is something that only happens after sex. Like, that shouldn’t even be part of the mathematical equation, from an intellectual perspective. The pattern you describe may be part of your personal experience (maybe also that of other men you know in your same cultural and situational context), but it’s not the only (or even, I’d suggest, the most common) human experience. (Many people in life never have the “falling in love” experience. Many people marry but never ‘fall in love’ (though they learn to love deeply and bond, and are happy); others fall in love but never have sex, or at least fall in love prior to marriage and sex.)

After healing from the damage you’ve sustained from previous experiences and cultural pressures, you may be able to have different experiences in future. Again, just keep letting God re-form you. He wants good things for you, and is able to bless you with them, the more you’re obedient to Him.

 

[Pug]

If interested in theology of the body, the original documents by St. JP2 are free. It is a series of over 100 speeches (audiences where he spoke) intermittently over quite a number of months. The first one is here on the Vatican site. The rest are there also, but hard to figure out which is next without a (John Paul II's Theology of the Body Lecture Series | EWTN) and a search engine.

 

[Usagi]

TheLittleLady:

No good marriage begins with “I have to do this so I can have sex with you”.

Exactly. And forbidding sex before marriage makes that happen more often than not I’d think.

I think it’s more, if that’s how you’re thinking of it, you shouldn’t be marrying anyone OR having sex with them.

Marriage isn’t something you “have to do,” and sex isn’t something you “get” (especially compared to whomever may or may not have “gotten” it before).

Surely you can be physically attracted to someone, even engage in some forms of physical affection, without actually having intercourse first.

 

[blackforest]

Thank you. This mentality stems from the Sexual Revolution, which promoted the wretchedly sexist practice of gaslighting women who asserted any sexual boundaries as “square” and “frigid.”

It seems like marriage is a control for men not to abandon pregnant women honestly.

Honestly the physical aspect seems to make up for where the personality is lacking.

Most of this thread has been about sex, but I find your attitude toward marriage alarming.

My husband is my best friend and my children’s wonderful father. He is not a ball-and-chain therapy dog here to oversee my brooding. And sex is what connects married couples; it isn’t there to drown out “lacking” personalities.

If you truly view marriage this cynically, please either rethink it or avoid it altogether.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

to have to get married before I can sleep with her when another guy didn’t have to make that commitment to get the same thing is crazy to me. I’m a very physical guy and if there is no sexuality why wouldn’t I just hang out with my guy friends?

So the whole point of you “hanging out” with a girl is so you can have premarital sex with her? Because you’re such a physical guy?
That doesn’t make you sound like a good choice for a husband.
Sounds like it’s all about you and your physical “needs”. Sounds pretty gross actually.
I’d think about that if I were you.

And what does the behavior of “another guy” have to do with it? You’re saying that if another guy already slept with her then you’re somehow entitled to do the same because it’s not fair to you otherwise? That’s even more gross. You should be striving to behave better than the other guy, not to act like he did.