Is it wrong to live a comfortable life amidst so much poverty

[Ignatius]

After reading these passages, along with the catechism # 2401-2407, is it wrong to say that any use of money that is not directed toward achieving a relative, fair equallity with others is sinful?

No, it can never be sinful to enjoy the abundance that God has given you. However, it is beneficial to your soul and to those that you bless to give alms. This was known as a mitzva and is totally in line with Jesus’ teaching.

 

[chaunceygardner]

**No, it can never be sinful to enjoy the abundance that God has given you. **However, it is beneficial to your soul and to those that you bless to give alms. This was known as a mitzva and is totally in line with Jesus’ teaching.

What! Never sinful? Of course it can be, depending on how you use it, and how you “enjoy” it. Jesus gave us several examples and stories about those who horded, misused or placed too much emphasis on the wealth they had. Two that come quickly to mind are the man who followed the commandments but didn’t want to give up his riches to follow Jesus, and the story of the wealthy men in the Temple giving from their excess and the widow giving from her poverty.

I am also not convinced that abundance is a “gift” from God; in many ways it could be a challenge and a burden.

 

[aicirt]

What! Never sinful? Of course it can be, depending on how you use it, and how you “enjoy” it. Jesus gave us several examples and stories about those who horded, misused or placed too much emphasis on the wealth they had. Two that come quickly to mind are the man who followed the commandments but didn’t want to give up his riches to follow Jesus, and the story of the wealthy men in the Temple giving from their excess and the widow giving from her poverty.

I am also not convinced that abundance is a “gift” from God; in many ways it could be a challenge and a burden.

How very true. Hence, the difficulty of a rich man getting into heaven. An example: rich widow leaves millions to a charity and in the establishment of a scholarship with so many restrictions family doubts anyone will apply, and leaves $25,000 each to two children who are trying to put their children through college. Were the children good to her? Yes, they were.

Or woman of modest means finds lost money and notifies the very wealthy beneficiary. The money would have gone to the state if the beneficiary hadn’t been found. Wealthy woman gave a verbal thank you through a mutual friend to woman of modest means. :tsktsk:

Flip side: Person announces she will be arriving at friend’s house for a visit. Why? “To stay with your ailing mother so you and your husband can go away for a week”, said friend. She will not have any trouble getting into heaven.:hug3: The woman is a saint!

 

[aicirt]

Another thought on this topic is that I don’t think it is limited to money. Many are rich in other things that others might need such as one’s time.

For example, a divorced woman who works full time is raising three kids under 10 years of age. She lives two miles from her widowed mother who let her know when she wed that she was not interested in babysitting. The grandmother has not changed her stance even after her daughter became divorced. Simultaneously, the grandmother is not above complaining to her daughter that she and her family never come to visit and she is alone all the time. :bighanky:

Here’s a grandmother who is rich in time with a daughter that doesn’t have any yet she expects her daughter to give her more of what she already has rather than the other way around.

What a blessing it would be if the gm would see with her daughter’s needs, and cook dinner, go over to her daughter’s house, feed the family, and offer to watch the kids so her daughter could get out and have some time to herself and/or get things done without having to drag her kids with her. Not to mention the memories of her she’d be giving to her gkids.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius:

***No, it can never be sinful to enjoy the abundance that God has given you. ***

However, it is beneficial to your soul and to those that you bless to give alms. This was known as a mitzva and is totally in line with Jesus’ teaching.

What! Never sinful?

Ok, you obviously didn’t read the post thoroughly. Here, I’ll highlight the relevant portions.

*No, it can never be sinful to enjoy the abundance that God has given you. *
Blessings from God Can never be a sin in and of themselves. That much is indisputable.

However, it is beneficial to your soul and to those that you bless to give alms. This was known as a mitzva and is totally in line with Jesus’ teaching.
You mentioned hoarding and selfishness. If one is giving alms, by definition they aren’t harding or being selfish. That just doesn’t even make any sense. Alms giving is sharing what you have with the less fortunate.

It is from the abundance that God has given that we are able to share with the less fortunate. If you pull down everyone, then everyone will be poor and there will be no abundance for anyone to share.

There is a great article on envy in latest issue of ‘This Rock’ magazine. It would probably benefit the discussion here for a few folks to give it a read.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Ok, you obviously didn’t read the post thoroughly. Here, I’ll highlight the relevant portions.

No, I read it thoroughly.

No, it can never be sinful to enjoy the abundance that God has given you.
Blessings from God Can never be a sin in and of themselves. That much is indisputable.

You are assuming the abundance came from God (rather than through cheating, stealing or other forms of greed). I wouldn’t consider someone who got rich by taking it from others to be “blessed” by God.

However, it is beneficial to your soul and to those that you bless to give alms. This was known as a mitzva and is totally in line with Jesus’ teaching.

You can give alms from your abundance, but how much? Those who have more should give more, and those who give out of their own want are blessed MORE than those who throw in a few pennies from their riches, as Jesus pointed out in the story of the rich men and the widow in the Temple.

You mentioned hoarding and selfishness. If one is giving alms, by definition they aren’t harding or being selfish. That just doesn’t even make any sense. Alms giving is sharing what you have with the less fortunate.

Whose definition? If you have a $10,000,000 and give 10%, and I have $10,000 and give 10%, who is really giving more? I think you are using your definition to rationalize accumulation of wealth at the expense of others. To me that is the opposite of the Christian ethic.

It is from the abundance that God has given that we are able to share with the less fortunate. If you pull down everyone, then everyone will be poor and there will be no abundance for anyone to share.

Gee, where have I heard that before? If you give 20% of your $10 million instead of just 10%, is that “pulling you down”? Only if your life style requires you to keep 90%. If I can only afford to give 5% of my $10,000, does that make you better or more giving? Let’s see what Jesus said about that in Mark 12:

"*He sat down opposite the treasury and observed how the crowd put money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums.
A poor widow also came and put in two small coins worth a few cents.
Calling his disciples to himself, he said to them, “Amen, I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the other contributors to the treasury.
For they have all contributed from their surplus wealth, but she, from her poverty, has contributed all she had, her whole livelihood.” *

There is a great article on envy in latest issue of ‘This Rock’ magazine. It would probably benefit the discussion here for a few folks to give it a read.

Thank you, I will read the article. But I don’t think this is about envy, rather it is about justice, and what Jesus taught us about that.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius:

No, it can never be sinful to enjoy the abundance that God has given you

.
Blessings from God Can never be a sin in and of themselves. That much is indisputable.

However, it is beneficial to your soul and to those that you bless to give alms. This was known as a mitzva and is totally in line with Jesus’ teaching.
You mentioned hoarding and selfishness. If one is giving alms, by definition they aren’t harding or being selfish. That just doesn’t even make any sense. Alms giving is sharing what you have with the less fortunate.

It is from the abundance that God has given that we are able to share with the less fortunate. If you pull down everyone, then everyone will be poor and there will be no abundance for anyone to share.

There is a great article on envy in latest issue of ‘This Rock’ magazine. It would probably benefit the discussion here for a few folks to give it a read.

You are assuming the abundance came from God.

You are assuming that somehow one can have abundance apart from the permissive will of God.

You can give alms from your abundance, but how much?

If you have a $10,000,000 and give 10%, and I have $10,000 and give 10%, who is really giving more?

The person giving $1,000,000 (10% of $10,000,000) is clearly giving more then the person giving $1000 (10% of $10,000). Clearly $1,000,000 will clearly feed far more people and $1000. Do you not understand that a percentage is a progressively larger amount? That is why a percentage is used, because it extracts more from those who have more.

I think you are using your definition to rationalize accumulation of wealth at the expense of others. To me that is the opposite of the Christian ethic.

Gee, where have I heard that before? If you give 20% of your $10 million instead of just 10%, is that “pulling you down”? Only if your life style requires you to keep 90%. If I can only afford to give 5% of my $10,000, does that make you better or more giving? Let’s see what Jesus said about that in Mark 12:

It just sounds like you are demanding that those who you choose must give as much as you think they should. Just demands and no love.

You can give everything you have away, feed every hungry sole on earth, and still not be in keeping with the Christian ethic.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love . . . . .

 

[chaunceygardner]

You are assuming that somehow one can have abundance apart from the permissive will of God.

Absolutely. Based on your way of thinking, Columbian drug cartel leaders, mafia chiefs and people like Bernie Madoff who steal from anyone they can are somehow favored by God in their actions??? Wow, I guess I have been mis-reading the words of Jesus all these years. I didn’t realize God was on the side of evil people!

The person giving $1,000,000 (10% of $10,000,000) is clearly giving more then the person giving $1000 (10% of $10,000). Clearly $1,000,000 will clearly feed far more people and $1000. Do you not understand that a percentage is a progressively larger amount? That is why a percentage is used, because it extracts more from those who have more.

But not relatively more. The rich man gives from their abundance, and they still have abundance after. Some give without having abundance, but it is because they understand and have feelings for those who are as bad off, or possibly worse off, than they are. It is not the number of people the gift will feed; it is what it means to the one who gives the gift.

You didn’t want to quote from my point regarding the relative value of what the rich person gives vs. the not so rich person. That is the crux of the whole issue. More will be expected from those who have more. I think Jesus said something like that. And those who have a LOT more can give a higher percentage than those with little. Jesus clearly points that out in Mark 12. I don’t how you can talk your way around that!

It just sounds like you are demanding that those who you choose must give as much as you think they should. Just demands and no love.

Not as much as “I” think, nor should I or anyone else demand any specific amount. No one has to, since Jesus does it very, very clearly. It is called Christian Love and Christian Justice; if one has that in their heart no demand is needed. Much of what Jesus teaches in the Gospels centers around those ideals. It must come from the heart, not from math.

You can give everything you have away, feed every hungry sole on earth, and still not be in keeping with the Christian ethic.
1Co 13:3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but have not love . . . . .

What Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians and what Jesus says in Mark 12 (and many other places) is that whatever we do must be done with love for it to really “count”. I would agree 100%.

I will pray that the love of Jesus enters into your heart.

 

[Ignatius]

What Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians and what Jesus says in Mark 12 (and many other places) is that whatever we do must be done with love for it to really “count”.

But that is not what you were alluding to in your previous posts. It is clear that you feel that redistribution of wealth is the way to go. It is a violation of the principal of subsidiarity (a principle which Pope Benedict XVII strongly supports) to cause the rightful property of others to be taken. Liberation theology, forceable redistribution of wealth, and government seizing of the property of others has been roundly condemned by The Church.

I will pray that the love of Jesus enters into your heart

You are making unwarranted presumptions as to the condition of any one elses heart. Since you cannot see someone else’s heart, . . . Well, I’ll just leave it to the readers to decide this question where charity lies in these posts.

 

[chaunceygardner]

But that is not what you were alluding to in your previous posts. It is clear that you feel that redistribution of wealth is the way to go. It is a violation of the principal of subsidiarity (a principle which Pope Benedict XVII strongly supports) to cause the rightful property of others to be taken. Liberation theology, forceable redistribution of wealth, and government seizing of the property of others has been roundly condemned by The Church.

It may be clear to you that I was talking about the forced redistribution of wealth but it isn’t at all what I was saying. I never advocated forcing anyone to give up their wealth or to take the rightful property of others. That is how YOU interpret anyone who suggests we live according to the Gospel; that those who have more will be expected to give more. “Give”, freely and lovingly share with others, NOT have taken away by force’

You seem to think that the accumulation of material wealth indicates favoritism by God, which is certainly not a Catholic doctrine nor in agreement with the message of Jesus. You appear to want to rationalize the accumulation of excess wealth by justifying the giving away of some of that wealth, but only to the point where it has no real impact on your ability to enjoy worldly abundance. Even bad people do that! Christians are asked, truly commanded, to do much more.

Heaven forbid that you would have to forgo a fancy dinner out so that some family in need would be able to adequately feed their children, have a decent roof over their heads or be clothed against the winter chill.

You are making unwarranted presumptions as to the condition of any one elses heart. Since you cannot see someone else’s heart, . . . Well, I’ll just leave it to the readers to decide this question where charity lies in these posts.

I really am concerned for you and your hierarchy of values. I think I and others can see your heart quite clearly, as of course can God. I am afraid that your view of Christian Love and Justice is far from what Jesus taught. Jesus said this in Luke 12:

"For where your treasure is, there also will your heart be."

If I am wrong in my observation about where YOUR treasure is, I beg your forgiveness. But in the meantime, I am praying for you and anyone who thinks in the same way, that you and they will see the light and respond with love and charity as Jesus taught.

 

[Ignatius]

Ignatius:

You are making unwarranted presumptions as to the condition of any one elses heart since you cannot see someone else’s heart,

I think I and others can see your heart quite clearly.

Ah, well then I certainly hope that you put the extraordinary gift of being able to know another mans heard to good use.

 

[chaunceygardner]

Ah, well then I certainly hope that you put the extraordinary gift of being able to know another mans heard to good use.

It is not an “extraordinary gift”; rather it is extraordinarily easy. One just has to read what you wrote, and assuming you are being truthful about your beliefs, it is quite apparent.

Note that you “accidently” left out a part of my statement in that quote; the part about God too being able to “see” into our hearts. It really shouldn’t matter what I or anyone else sees or thinks; what is important is how God judges what we do and how we live the Gospel. I am praying that you truly do that.

 

[DebChris]

I used to keep my tithe in a decorative box. On the outside of the box, I taped a widow’s mite that I had received in the mail.

It is true that God praised the generosity of the widow who gave from her need over those who gave from their abundance. By this example, a person who gives 10% from yearly earnings of $6,000 earns more than the person who gives 10% from a million dollar salary.

Nobody on this forum has advocated greed as a means of obtaining wealth. Wealth honestly earned can definitely be a blessing from God. Philanthropists use their abundance to build foundations that provide grants to worthy causes. Charity moves beyond “give a fish” to “teach a person to fish.” These foundations help break the cycle of poverty that imprisons so many people. Charities advertise matching funds that multiply the “widow’s mite” 10x due to the generosity of those with more to give.

The late John Mitchner, author of Hawaii, Tales of the South Pacific, and other best sellers lived on 10% of his income. This allowed him to live a simpler yet still comfortable lifestyle.

I need to look up the scripture passage in which St. Paul says "Do not impoverish yourself. In all things, we need to seek balance as we ask God’s direction for our own life.

 

[Freeway4321]

I have been studying global and public health for some time now. I have traveled to several different countries working with global health and international partnerships. My siblings are all now getting married and settling down now and I’m confused with what to do. If the world were perfectly fine I’d buy a piece of property close to my siblings and parents and raise a family the best I could and that would be perfect for me. But it seems condemnable to lead such a life when you know you could have an impact developing countries and putting roofs over peoples houses and books in schools. The problem is this, to work internationally and really make a difference it requires an incredible time out of the country which would distance me from my family. So what’s a guy to do?

Luke 12:33: Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. [KJV]

 

[ready]

Help those poor people who have no one to help them, and ask your family to visit you abroad, if they can. You can help so many lives with your credentials. Go for it! Think of how much misery you’ll be alleviating by your noble sacrifice for the poorest of the poor who really have nobody but us to help them. They are so helpless! (You just reminded me to make a donation to CRS!) The poor need us with whatever capacity we are able to help them. Christ even left his mother to serve us. Do the same and you’ll recieve a great reward in heaven!Peace!