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tomarin
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We humans have a pretty strong self-presevation instinct.
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Kei
Guest
I would not say it is blind, but on the bedrock of Christ
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Edward_H
Guest
Think about that doctor, Dr Bernard Nathanson…who spent most of his medical career aborting children…then late in his career he had a profound change of heart and converted to Catholicism…and spent the rest of his life working for pro-life causes.
What God can do with us when we ask Him to help us be better instruments of His love. We only have to ask and cooperate.
If He can convert water into wine, a few loaves into many many…Nathanson into a global force for the good…He can do even more with us!
From the wikipedia article on Bernard Nathanson
What God can do with us when we ask Him to help us be better instruments of His love. We only have to ask and cooperate.
If He can convert water into wine, a few loaves into many many…Nathanson into a global force for the good…He can do even more with us!
From the wikipedia article on Bernard Nathanson
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omgriley
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Because through Christ’s Passion and Death, human suffering takes on supernatural value. God Himself saved the world through His death on the Cross. And so He asks us to be His followers by taking up our own cross --The reward for which is everlasting life. He invites us to share in His sacrifice, which is the only real measure of true Love. And the effect of love is union. If we are to truly love Love Itself, we must be willing to sacrifice, and suffer, for Him.
In other words…
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ColdComfort1
Guest
Yes. It is wrong. Despair is a sin. Secondly, you can’t anyway. Cease to exist that is.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
But explain what’s so wrong with wanting to be totally non-existent? Does God forbid us to have such a desire? Is it a sin? It’s not despairing, but merely a desire which almost nobody has.
Yes, I believe in an afterlife, and I’m most eagerly awaiting it!!! But that’s not the issue I’m trying to get at. Even Job wished he had never been born and God has never condemned him for it!!!
Yes, I believe in an afterlife, and I’m most eagerly awaiting it!!! But that’s not the issue I’m trying to get at. Even Job wished he had never been born and God has never condemned him for it!!!
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omgriley
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Wanting to “not exist”, is sinful insofar as it violates the virtue of justice in which one renders each his due. In this case it would be two-fold. Primarily, God’s due is His will for you to exist. Regardless of the fact that one cannot do so much about his existence as it is, one’s desire to not exist would contradict God’s will for that person, thus causing sin. Secondly, it is a person’s right by the order of justice to exist. By willing the opposite of that, one may be sinning against Justice with regards to himself.
The Catechsim, albeit while dealing with the topic of suicide, speaks of the “just love of self” which is due to each person and which suicide robs them of. I can’t imagine that willing non-existence is too far off from that.
I’m wondering, if you are eagerly awaiting Heaven with God, where is this question of non-existence coming from? Just theorizing?
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Robert_Sock
Guest
You managed to delete what I said about Job wishing that he never existed at one point and God never reprehended him in the least! Why did God not respond to his wish harshly if he sinned?
Moreover, this thread has nothing to do with suicide. Many people highly desire an everlasting life, but there are some who just want to become non-existent. Personally, I can relate to those who wish to become non-existent even though I eagerly await Heaven.
Moreover, this thread has nothing to do with suicide. Many people highly desire an everlasting life, but there are some who just want to become non-existent. Personally, I can relate to those who wish to become non-existent even though I eagerly await Heaven.
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Robert_Sock
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I guess what I want to say is that I would much rather be non-existent than to have to return to this world. There are several quotes in the NT and in the writings of the saints that warn us from loving this lowly, pitiful world.
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omgriley
Guest
Robert, I didn’t delete any of your comments. I don’t have the ability to do that. The forum allows one to quote sections of user comments in order to respond to different points, one at a time. I happened to have been in a rush and simply forgot to respond to your comment about Job.
If you would like to know exactly why God didn’t chastise Job for expressing a desire to have never been born, only God can tell you that. I could surmise however that Job was an extremely holy and upright man, whom God nonetheless allowed to suffer tremendously by having his home, wife, family, and livelihood all taken from him. Perhaps in His infinite mercy, God let Job slide on “wishing he’d never been born.”
I understand this thread is not about suicide. I wasn’t making it about suicide. Wanting to die and wanting to have never been born are both closely relatable feelings of despair. I merely suggested that if the Church speaks one way on suicide, She would probably have the same attitude toward desiring to “be non-existent.” Both desires contradict a “just love of self.” Can you see my point now that I’ve parsed it out a little bit more?
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anon65111186
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The pain of all the things you missed and could have done had you lived longer would be more painful if you died. It is impossible to not exist.
Life on this earth has a 100% mortality rate, but all human life from the beginning of time also has a 100% immortality rate. Everyone who lived once still exists in some way, in hell, heaven or purgatory.
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brian_custer
Guest
this discussion is getting heavy
i do understand there is a difference between wishing for “non-existence” (ie never having been born) & wishing for “death”, which, once you are born, can be accomplished in any number of ways , including by suicide, although that particular course of action is sinful
i do understand there is a difference between wishing for “non-existence” (ie never having been born) & wishing for “death”, which, once you are born, can be accomplished in any number of ways , including by suicide, although that particular course of action is sinful
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Pat_Albertson
Guest
It doesn’t feel wrong, although the church says it is. I have felt like ending it all for decades at a time. The reasons I haven’t is because the church says no, I have a beautiful beautiful cat, and at times I didn’t have enough money to either see to it that she was taken care of after I was gone, or, with an earlier cat, to see that she left at the exact same time I did.
The reason I don’t want to do it right now is simply the profane one of having a little more money at this time.
I suppose, as the church would suggest, that I am offending God and thus taking something from His Glory that is rightfully His when I think of suicide. It’s an odd thing that I just now experienced, but having just typed this out, I feel like I get the point of not offending God in a way that I don’t when I am merely thinking about the concept of how this is offensive to Him.
If everybody on earth offends God once a day, then he is offended and ripped off billions of times a day. I have been thinking about this lately but not as seriously as I should have been, just ruminating on it. Frankly, I haven’t been doing much of anything (other than sleeping*) as seriously as I should have.
Please pray for me to begin praying for myself that I should be more attentive to prayer, confession, going to church and receiving communion.
*Proper sleep is very important for cutting back on depression. When I don’t have money and homelessness becomes a looming concern, I don’t sleep nearly as well; I am constantly anxious then.
The reason I don’t want to do it right now is simply the profane one of having a little more money at this time.
I suppose, as the church would suggest, that I am offending God and thus taking something from His Glory that is rightfully His when I think of suicide. It’s an odd thing that I just now experienced, but having just typed this out, I feel like I get the point of not offending God in a way that I don’t when I am merely thinking about the concept of how this is offensive to Him.
If everybody on earth offends God once a day, then he is offended and ripped off billions of times a day. I have been thinking about this lately but not as seriously as I should have been, just ruminating on it. Frankly, I haven’t been doing much of anything (other than sleeping*) as seriously as I should have.
Please pray for me to begin praying for myself that I should be more attentive to prayer, confession, going to church and receiving communion.
*Proper sleep is very important for cutting back on depression. When I don’t have money and homelessness becomes a looming concern, I don’t sleep nearly as well; I am constantly anxious then.
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Vico
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Robert_Sock
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Yes, I firmly believe Romans 8, and I would be willing to suffer as a means of the intercession of a soul that I love, but I do not like suffering and I do not love living in this world.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
You are so right about needing to get sleep. I would add, eating properly including sufficient protein and water, not other liquids, but plain water, to that list.
Your cats are little messengers from heaven sent you by God to keep you aware of the love and good things in life if you continue to live. God loves you like you love those cats. I’m sure you don’t stop loving the cat if it has a hissy day or poops outside the box. God loves you even when you have a hissy day or think/do something he’d rather you not.
Your cats are little messengers from heaven sent you by God to keep you aware of the love and good things in life if you continue to live. God loves you like you love those cats. I’m sure you don’t stop loving the cat if it has a hissy day or poops outside the box. God loves you even when you have a hissy day or think/do something he’d rather you not.
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Vico
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So you really have two issues you raised:
- Is it wrong to want to become totally nonexistant?
- What is it that makes people cling to this life?
Another consideration is that we must all do penance, and also that temporal punishment of sin is a grace.
Catechism
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Robert_Sock
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I hear what you are saying, and it makes some sense to me, but like Job, I sympathize with anyone living in this world who feels they would be better off having never been created. Moreover, especially based on the Book of Job, I personally do not believe that such a wish is sinful. To the contrary, I believe that anybody who loves this life is sinning. I think we can both agree that we should focus our attention on the Hereafter, and not love our life in this world.
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