Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven?

[jmcrae]

“Purgatory is just part of our continuing response to the Crucifixion. Most of us do not become perfectly without sin during this lifetime. (If the Crucifixion worked automatically, then we would become incapable of sin at the instant of baptism. We don’t.)”

NOONE become perfect in this lifetime. It is simply not possible. If it was possible - why should Christ die? We could just have tried harder to save ourselves.

We can’t save ourselves. We need Christ’s help. Christ’s help comes to us through prayer and through the Sacraments.

But we have to cooperate with Christ’s help, or else we get nowhere, because we can’t do it by ourselves - and we won’t get there by not doing it at all.

This idea that God is a trickster who lies to Himself and pretends that you are without sin is absurd. We have to become actually without sin, in order to enter into Heaven. God sees reality as it is. He is Truth; He is not capable of lying to anyone, especially not to Himself.

Perfection in this lifetime is impossible. Because perfection is not only saying the right prayers at the right times, abstaining from the right foods at the right times, and fight against sin.
Perfection is NOT SINNING AT ALL, period. No human being since Christ has ever achieved this.

Actually, some have. Little Thérèse did it. But, it is extremely rare.

We can know that IF WE hold fast until the end, then we WILL be saved. Scriptura locuta est, causa finita est.

“Holding fast to the end” means not sinning.

 

[Contarini]

You want to stop calling us the “Roman Catholic” Church, please, LDK? We are the Catholic Church. Period.

If he or I thought this, we would join you. You need to consider what you are asking non-Catholics to do. I have no problem using the phrase “Catholic Church” as a matter of courtesy. But Catholics persistently misinterpret this as an admission that the Catholic Church *does *fully and uniquely subsist in your Communion. Obviously non-Catholics don’t believe this, and in certain circumstances we need a linguistic way of signaling this. I use “Roman Communion” myself in many contexts, but at least one poster found *that *offensive.

Edwin

 

[elvisman]

If he or I thought this, we would join you. You need to consider what you are asking non-Catholics to do. I have no problem using the phrase “Catholic Church” as a matter of courtesy. But Catholics persistently misinterpret this as an admission that the Catholic Church *does *fully and uniquely subsist in your Communion. Obviously non-Catholics don’t believe this, and in certain circumstances we need a linguistic way of signaling this. I use “Roman Communion” myself in many contexts, but at least one poster found *that *offensive.

Edwin

**The term “Roman Catholic Church” isn’t even the title of the Church. **It is indeed “The Catholic Church” which is headquartered in Rome. Many of us happen to be of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. There are also the Byzantine, Maronite and many other rites.

Whether you agree with it or not, it is the Catholic Church and has been so for around 2000 years.

 

[cecilia97]

Infinite Justice and Infinite Mercy are a paradox. They necessarily have to be opposed to each other. I agree that this is only according to our finite minds.

As long as we remember that God cannot be opposed to Himself.

My brain hurts!

 

[Syele]

Is Jeffrey Dahmer in Heaven?
I dunno.

Here is an article that claims that Jeffrey Dahmer, the admitted homosexual, who abducted, raped, tortured, murdered and cannibalized many young innocent victims, became a “born-again” Christian while in prison…

Does this mean that “born again” and other Protestant Christians believe that Jeffrey Dahmer is in heaven?

If he was truly “born-Again” and met all the proper conditions, then he is.

Are his victims in heaven with him?

The manner of ones death does not decide if you go to heaven.

Is it possible that some of his victims are not in heaven and he is?

It is possible.

Do you agree with this Martin Luther quote? -
“No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”
“Let Your Sins Be Strong: A Letter from Luther to Melanchthon”.– c.1521)

All sins seperate us from full communion and favor with God. Even tiny scrupulous ones. BUT no sin… even a large one like murder, Will stop you from getting into heaven if you are truly “born again” except the unforgivable sin.

I believe that we are judged by our “works”, good and bad. I also believe that a virtuous life does have merit. I do not believe that there exists an automatic “Get out of Hell” card.

Jimmy there is only one “get out of hell card.” It is a real love for God and desire to do His will. Our works will be judged, and our final reward in heaven will be based on our works.

I believe in God’s infinite mercy and I believe that anything is possible in God; however, I also believe that bad people go to Hell. Jeffrey Dahmer is a bad person so doesn’t that mean that he is in Hell?

Sorry to burst your bubble but ALL PEOPLE ARE BAD. None of us are good enough to merit Heaven. We all need the “get out of hell card” or we go to hell. period.

Additionally, I have read that Jeffrey Dahmer was involved in the Occult, or satanic worship, wouldn’t this behavior, fall under, “blasphemy against the Holy Spirit”, the un-forgivable sin?

No it is not the unforgivable sin, but it can make it very hard to figure out where you put your “get out of hell card.”

I do not believe that Jeffery Dahmer is in heaven, what do you think?

Only God knows where Dahmers heart was when he died. But Jesus Died and offered Salvation to all not only to people who think they are not that bad.

41 “A certain moneylender had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 When they could not pay, he cancelled the debt of both. Now which of them will love him more?” 43 Simon answered, “The one, I suppose, for whom he cancelled the larger debt.” And he said to him, “You have judged rightly.” 44 Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven—for she loved much. But he who is forgiven little, loves little.”

 

[LutheranDK]

The term “Roman Catholic Church” isn’t even the title of the Church. It is indeed “The Catholic Church” which is headquartered in Rome. Many of us happen to be of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church. There are also the Byzantine, Maronite and many other rites.

Whether you agree with it or not, it is the Catholic Church and has been so for around 2000 years.

The Roman-Catholic church is not = the Catholic church. The Roman-Catholic church is a branch on the tree that is the Catholic church, whether you agree with this statement or not.

The Byzantine, Maronite, etc, rites are still within the Roman-Catholic church…

 

[LutheranDK]

You want to stop calling us the “Roman Catholic” Church, please, LDK? We are the Catholic Church. Period.

To put it short and simple: NO.

I’ve stretched myself as far as I’m going to in terms of terminology. I am not going to acknowledge the attempt to monopolize the term “Catholic” that the Roman-Catholic church has got going on.

The Roman-Catholic church may very well be the largest branch on the tree that is the Catholic church, but it is NOT the tree itself.

Some might read hate, contempt or some other ulterior motive into this above statement. So go ahead and do it; I’m going to stop caring in a short while. Being accused of “hate” and much else every time I disagree with the Roman-Catholic church will do that to a person…

I stopped calling the RC-church “the Roman church” because I wanted to take into account that people thought this offensive.
I was being polite. But a line has to be drawn somewhere, and that “somewhere” is here. I too am Catholic, though not Roman-Catholic, and there ends the matter.

Now, if you want to discuss something of actual importance - please feel free. There is nothing more to discuss here. Case closed.

 

[Pong]

You can call youself the high priestess Zelda for all I care; you’re still a protestant. We get to monopolize the term “Catholic” because we are the original Church founded by Christ on Peter. We are the Catholic Church. Not the Roman Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, but the one, holy Catholic, and apostolic Church. I don’t read hatred into your refusal to call us by the title that is properly ours; I read ignorance, stubborness, and a misguided sense of pride.

 

[LutheranDK]

We can’t save ourselves. We need Christ’s help. Christ’s help comes to us through prayer and through the Sacraments.

But we have to cooperate with Christ’s help, or else we get nowhere, because we can’t do it by ourselves - and we won’t get there by not doing it at all.

This idea that God is a trickster who lies to Himself and pretends that you are without sin is absurd. We have to become actually without sin, in order to enter into Heaven. God sees reality as it is. He is Truth; He is not capable of lying to anyone, especially not to Himself.

Actually, some have. Little Thérèse did it. But, it is extremely rare.

“Holding fast to the end” means not sinning.

1: Hmmm… Did you get the point I was trying to make?
Anyway, I assume the best in people until proven otherwise, so I choose to think it was poor wording on my part (I am ESL, so I’m excused ). I will try again:

When Christ died on Calvary, ALL the sins of the world was upon His shoulders. By His death, He atoned for all sins of those who put their faith in Him.
Now: I am a Christian. This means that I have put my faith in Christ, bound myself to Him. Therefore: ALL my sins are forgiven, and therefore have no weight whatsoever on whether or not I will be saved. I WILL - I know this. Because Christ has already atoned them. When sins are atoned, they are removed from the equation. At least, I hope we agree on this last sentence?
Now. Since Scripture teaches us that when you put your faith in Christ - ALL your sins (past, present and future) are atoned, this means that ALL of your sins have been left out of the equation.
Therefore, a Christian is not only APPARENTLY perfect - he/she IS perfect, because all of his/her sins are gone as the cold of the night disappears when the sun rises.
Therefore, a Christian is “justus” - righteous.
Now, we still commit sins, yes. But the very point I’m trying to make is that if you’re a Christian, all of your sins (ALL of them!) were atoned. So the sins we commit are atoned, and though we still sin until the day of our death, our sins cannot seperate us from Christ. For He has already removed them from the equation.

2: No. No person has ever lived an entire life without committing any sin. Except Christ, that is (I know that the Roman-Catholic church also thinks that Mary did not sin either, but this is a subject for another thread, so let’s exclude both here).
Perfection in oneself is not simply at some point being able to not sin at all (although that too is not possible, but let’s assume for the sake of the argument that it is). It is having lived an entire lifespan and not sinned ONCE. That is not possible.

3: No. Holding fast till the end means: Keep the faith until the Lord returns, or calls you home.****

 

[LutheranDK]

You can call youself the high priestess Zelda for all I care; you’re still a protestant. We get to monopolize the term “Catholic” because we are the original Church founded by Christ on Peter. We are the Catholic Church. Not the Roman Church, not the Roman Catholic Church, but the one, holy Catholic, and apostolic Church. I don’t read hatred into your refusal to call us by the title that is properly ours; I read ignorance, stubborness, and a misguided sense of pride.

Keep on repeating that mantra, dude. It’s still not true. The title “Catholic” is not properly the title of the Roman branch of the Catholic church - it is the title of the Catholic church, that is: The universal, indivisible, invisible community of all believers. And you can keep shouting that mantra of yours from now till the Lord returns - it will still not be true.
End of story.

 

[Pong]

You keep ending that story. It must be bliss to be persistant in both ignorance and arrogance.

P.S. I’m not a dude.

 

[Cathdefender]

The Roman-Catholic church is not = the Catholic church. The Roman-Catholic church is a branch on the tree that is the Catholic church, whether you agree with this statement or not.

The Byzantine, Maronite, etc, rites are still within the Roman-Catholic church…

Funny how Protestants seem to think they are experts on the Catholic church…

 

[LutheranDK]

Funny how Protestants seem to think they are experts on the Catholic church…

Funny how Roman-Catholics spew filth at their opponents when they simply state fact.
Because I assume that we agree on the Byzantine, Maronite, etc, rites still being a part of what I call “The Roman-Catholic” church?

 

[Syele]

Well then get your headquarters out of Rome, get all the Churches to take down the signs that read “Roman Catholic Church”, and convince all your Catholic friends to stop signing their posts “I am a Roman Catholic.” Oh be sure to check that religion field in the profiles around here too, lots of them say “Roman Catholic” Too bad all those people have an imaginary Church and don’t realize it.

 

[LutheranDK]

You keep ending that story. It must be bliss to be persistant in both ignorance and arrogance.

P.S. I’m not a dude.

If you call knowledge “ignorance” and openness (trust me: If I had even half the “hate”, “prejudice”, etc, of the RC-church that I’m accused of, I wouldn’t even be here!) “arrogance”, then I’m guilty as charged.
But I would think that the proper use of those terms fit you better than me.

End of story

(yeah, I “ended the story” again. So sue me!)

 

[LutheranDK]

Well then get your headquarters out of Rome, get all the Churches to take down the signs that read “Roman Catholic Church”, and convince all your Catholic friends to stop signing their posts “I am a Roman Catholic.” Oh be sure to check that religion field in the profiles around here too, lots of them say “Roman Catholic” Too bad all those people have an imaginary Church and don’t realize it.

:clapping:

THANK YOU!

 

[Pong]

Well then get your headquarters out of Rome,

get all the Churches to take down the signs that read “Roman Catholic Church”,

Had I the power…

and convince all your Catholic friends to stop signing their posts “I am a Roman Catholic.”

I would love to. It’s bad enough when protestants use the term, but when Catholics who ought to know better do…

Oh be sure to check that religion field in the profiles around here too, lots of them say “Roman Catholic” Too bad all those people have an imaginary Church and don’t realize it.

Oh, I have. Again, ignorance is never a good thing.

LDK- You seem to be incapable for following a conversation in any meaningful way, so I will refrain from attempting to continue a dialogue. Best of luck, at any rate.

 

[LutheranDK]

LOL - that’s rich… Yeah, whatever. Same to you.

 

[jmcrae]

Keep on repeating that mantra, dude. It’s still not true. The title “Catholic” is not properly the title of the Roman branch of the Catholic church - it is the title of the Catholic church, that is: The universal, indivisible, invisible community of all believers. And you can keep shouting that mantra of yours from now till the Lord returns - it will still not be true.
End of story.

The “Roman Church” isn’t a “branch” of the Church. It’s the whole entirety of what Christ founded upon the earth. He did not come back to earth in 1524 to found the “Lutheran branch” of the Catholic Church. Nor did He come back to the earth at any other time, to found any other “branch” of the Church. All of these “branches” are man-made. But even so, these cannot be considered “branches” of Christ’s Church, because they didn’t keep a connection with the Church at all.

If the other churches (Lutheran, Baptist, etc.) had kept a connection with the “Roman Church,” then these would be “branches” of the Roman Church. But they did not - they separated completely. So, they cannot be considered “part of” what Christ established upon the earth as being His Church.

 

[jmcrae]

1: Hmmm… Did you get the point I was trying to make?

Yes. You believe that you are a “dunghill covered in snow,” and that spring never comes, in Heaven. That God will be somehow fooled into thinking that you are pure snow through and through.

Did you get the point that I was trying to make? (That it’s summer in Heaven, and dunghills don’t get covered in snow there. We have to be perfected by the time we get there.)

When Christ died on Calvary, ALL the sins of the world was upon His shoulders. By His death, He atoned for all sins of those who put their faith in Him.

By “putting faith in” we mean joining the Church and partaking of the Sacraments, right? And that we are on the road to holiness - each day is better than the last, and each Confession has fewer sins, and less serious sins in it, than the last, right? Until finally, there is nothing left to confess.

Now: I am a Christian. This means that I have put my faith in Christ, bound myself to Him. Therefore: ALL my sins are forgiven, and therefore have no weight whatsoever on whether or not I will be saved. I WILL - I know this. Because Christ has already atoned them. When sins are atoned, they are removed from the equation. At least, I hope we agree on this last sentence?

When we participate in the Sacraments, the blood of Christ is applied to our souls, and our sins are washed off, yes. We also develop habits of holiness that will cause us to avoid sinning in the future.

Now. Since Scripture teaches us that when you put your faith in Christ - ALL your sins (past, present and future) are atoned, this means that ALL of your sins have been left out of the equation.

Where does Scripture teach “past, present, and future”?

Now, we still commit sins, yes. But the very point I’m trying to make is that if you’re a Christian, all of your sins (ALL of them!) were atoned. So the sins we commit are atoned, and though we still sin until the day of our death, our sins cannot seperate us from Christ. For He has already removed them from the equation.

Only if they are confessed and absolved. There is no such thing as “pre-forgiveness of sins.” Otherwise St. Paul would not have written 13 letters telling people to behave themselves, in case they lose the salvation that Christ so dearly bought for them.